Kha Khans - the derail thread on the Saints of Independent $cientology

[Lone Star]

That's a pretty good explanation.

When confronted by a person, who is in the process of being lured into Scientology, and has just pleasantly used his newly acquired "Comm Course" skills to establish communication with, and happily extrovert, a withdrawn little old lady neighbor, and is very pleased with himself about his good deed, and equally as impressed with his success applying the "tech," don't go

on the person, because that probably won't help free him from the sucking power of Scientology.

The fact is the little old lady did feel better, and was cheerfully extroverted.

Recognize that, and then take it from there.

LOL....I love that illustration!

But that aside, I agree that getting all emotional on someone isn't the answer or the right approach. One doesn't have to use excessive emotion to lovingly invalidate.

Hey, did I just coin something new? "Loving invalidation"? I guess it's like the "tough love" therapists talk about in confronting addicts.

Or maybe Bush Jr.'s "compassionate conservatism". LOL...Okay, now I'm just being silly.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Now here you [Veda] are recommending an Elcon book.

No he isn't.

And neither am I, for that matter.

Paul

 

[Free Being Me]

Again, you're just not understanding my message.

So far I've read bits and pieces of $cientology are good (S/A) but when asked for specific details you become cryptically vague. If you can't articulate these "good" nuggets why assert they exist, much less invite conversation?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Self Analysis was published in 1951. It's had lots of covers, amongst them:

The "R6 bank" Obscene dog was used in the late 1960s edition.

The book, itself, is not particularly crazy and, as a result, is often used as a lead-in to Scientology.

Telling someone that's read, and perhaps used, 'Self Analysis', and has had a good experience, that it's crap, etc., is not terribly effective.

Telling the person that 'Self Analysis' is a cool little book and listening to him as he talks about his positive experiences with the book and, then, letting the person know that the 'Self Analysis' book is not reflective of the overall subject of Scientology and, then, gently informing him of some of the unpleasant facts about Scientology - and its "tech" - is, IMO, a wiser approach.

The 'Self Analysis' book - and its entertaining video - was included here, as a counter point to the assertion that, "The tech is dangerous in all its forms," and should not, in any of its forms, be tolerated.

That strident approach misses the annoying detail that one of Scientology's most successful tricks is that the "tech" in not dangerous in all its forms.

Awkward isn't it?

Scientology is sneaky. It uses disguises, it lures, it misleads, and probably its most successful disguise is the part of Scientology that is "good."

If someone has experienced some of that "good," he's likely to ignore those telling him that it's "all bad."

It's the perfect trick. As part of its disguise layer, Scientology includes bits and pieces that are "good." Those alarmed by the harm Scientology does, naturally, seek to warn others. In the intensity of it all, those bits and pieces of "good" are not mentioned, but are brushed aside and simply discounted.

Thus the disguise in not recognized and is not described.

This is helpful to Scientology.

For some, a piece of "good" can be the "hook" that snags.

Insisting that "the tech is dangerous in all its forms" and should not be tolerated in any of its forms, is a problematic approach, and problematic for a number of reasons.

It seemed to me that this deserved a challenge, and could be the root of an interesting discussion.

Sure that approach could be great.

There are other approaches to informing a wog who is being targeted by Scientologists and their dissemination tech.

Once a prominent local business owner was being courted by the local org that had just moved in for "PR AREA CONTROL" and gaining the support of "OPINION LEADERS"....and, of course, also looking to get them interested in Scientology auditing/courses. They even gave them some full unopened boxfuls of all the BASICS, much to the individuals surprise.

One afternoon, on the street, I saw the business owner and we stopped to chat and catch up. They knew nothing of my former involvement with Scn, but the subject came up that they had been approached by the Executive Director of that org and taken on a tour and given all those shiny new books. I simply mentioned that when I was a very young man I checked out Scientology and knew more about it than he might imagine. LOL. I cut to the chase and asked him:

Do you happen to know how much it costs a person if they want to
do all that auditing and training to get up to "Clear" and
the "Operating Thetan" levels? ​

He wasn't sure, so I prodded him with a smile and "Take a guess". I did that just to make sure he was paying attention when I gave him the answer. LOL

He was crazy low on his guess. So I simply said. "No. It costs $500,000 to do Scientology." He thought I was joking and I let him know I wasn't and we both laughed. Being sane, he thought that was completely insane.

That pretty much ended 97.5% of his curiosity.

Just to be sure, when we talked a few months later I asked him if he ever read about the secret beliefs of Scientologists online. I told him about the Xenu aliens hoax. We laughed again.

It didn't take much at all to give Mr. Businessman the Heeber Jeebies and he told me he was going to "...stay the hell away from those people!" LOL

I wouldn't do that particular 'handling" on everyone, but it fit him because I knew he valued money and worked his butt off for every dollar he made and that he lived close to the edge financially with high quality cars, clothes, etc.

Maybe someone else would respond to a different handling, but my point is that it doesn't have to always be a gentle and indirect approach, as effective as that is.

In the above example, I did not tell him, acknowledge or even allow the possibility that there was "good" in Scientology. I just pulled the pin, threw a grenade in there and pulled him out after the explosion. LOL

 

[Free Being Me]

Self Analysis .....

It's the perfect trick. As part of its disguise layer, [HIGHLIGHT]Scientology includes bits and pieces that are "good."[/HIGHLIGHT] Those alarmed by the harm Scientology does, naturally, seek to warn others. In the intensity of it all, [HIGHLIGHT]those bits and pieces of "good" are not mentioned[/HIGHLIGHT], but are brushed aside and simply discounted. >snip<

You don't give specific examples, just vague generalities. What exactly are you referring to?

Isn't the 'Self Analysis' book - and its list of recollection questions - specific?

No he isn't.

And neither am I, for that matter.

Paul

I asked Veda exactly what "good" $cientology has and his response was S/A. Isn't that a recommendation of "good' that shouldn't be swept away as he puts it?

 

[Dulloldfart]

I asked Veda exactly what "good" $cientology has and his response was S/A. Isn't that a recommendation of "good' that shouldn't be swept away as he puts it?

I will speak for myself, as I could have said similar things. By itself — by itself — the Self Analysis book and auditing procedure, done by oneself or with two normal* people (no meter) seems to be pretty harmless. Some people find its gentle approach to recalling things beneficial. Some people get good wins from it.

The big problem I see with it is that it could lead one to think well of the whole of Scientology, based on one's small (and cheap) experience so far.

I could expand on this theme, but that's the crux of it.

*By normal, I mean average people, not clinical cases etc.

Paul

 

[Free Being Me]

I will speak for myself, as I could have said similar things. By itself — by itself — the Self Analysis book and auditing procedure, done by oneself or with two normal* people (no meter) seems to be pretty harmless. Some people find its gentle approach to recalling things beneficial. Some people get good wins from it.

The big problem I see with it is that it could lead one to think well of the whole of Scientology, based on one's small (and cheap) experience so far.

I could expand on this theme, but that's the crux of it.

*By normal, I mean average people, not clinical cases etc.

Paul

I think it's a bunch garbage so we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Veda]

Sure that approach could be great.

There are other approaches to informing a wog who is being targeted by Scientologists and their dissemination tech.

-snip-

Yes, there are various approaches depending on the person targeted by Scientology, and the circumstances.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

..

Personally, I would never talk about the "good" in Scientology if there was any conceivable way of avoiding it.

I felt the same way in my past lives.

For example, in 1940 if a Jew in Eastern Europe asked me what I thought about those uniformed people with the dedicated look in their eye who were generously offering "FREE INTRODUCTORY TRAIN RIDES", I wouldn't say anything good about the trains either.

Mein Kampf, Mein KSW, is there really any meaningful difference?

 

[Free Being Me]

..

Personally, I would never talk about the "good" in Scientology if there was any conceivable way of avoiding it.

I felt the same way in my past lives.

For example, in 1940 if a Jew in Eastern Europe asked me what I thought about those uniformed people with the dedicated look in their eye who were generously offering "FREE INTRODUCTORY TRAIN RIDES", I wouldn't say anything good about the trains either.

Mein Kampf, Mein KSW, is there really any meaningful difference?

Exactly. When I first showed up here reading about the "good" in the cult from various posters it was a challenge in more ways than one leading me to question why I was even here and perhaps ole Elcon really knew what he was talking about. I almost gave up going back into my little cult bubble. That's why people stay indoctrinated, the instilled belief the cult or any cult for that matter still has positive value.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

...

Exactly. When I first showed up here reading about the "good" in the cult from various posters it was challenge in more ways than one leading me to question why I was even here and perhaps ole Elcon really knew what he was talking about. I almost gave up going back into my little cult bubble. That's why people stay indoctrinated, the instilled belief the cult or any cult for that matter still has positive value.

Exactly.

Some ex-scientologists are like the neighbors being interviewed on the evening news--who were quite surprised to see the house next to them closed off and surrounded by yellow crime scene tape, policemen and coroner's office staff scurrying in and out with body bags.

REPORTER
Did you ever have any indication that your next door neighbor
was a serial killer with 58 people buried in his basement?

NEIGHBOR
No, not at all. He was always a good guy to everyone.

​

Any time "obnosis" is used (either by a Scientologist or a Wog) and the word "good" appears, that's a really good time to quickly leave--while you still have a chance.

 

[Lone Star]

..

Personally, I would never talk about the "good" in Scientology if there was any conceivable way of avoiding it.

I felt the same way in my past lives.

For example, in 1940 if a Jew in Eastern Europe asked me what I thought about those uniformed people with the dedicated look in their eye who were generously offering "FREE INTRODUCTORY TRAIN RIDES", I wouldn't say anything good about the trains either.

Mein Kampf, Mein KSW, is there really any meaningful difference?

Not to take this on another tangent, but on a few other threads there are some who are "finding the good" in Islam. A few others are "minimizing the bad" or "rationalizing the threat away". Both approaches are being taken by all too many throughout the western world right now.

Churchill was regarded as an extremist nut when jumping up and down warning everyone about the Hitlerian Nazi threat.

And then of course we have the Scientology experience/analogy. (Paulette Cooper said Scientology reminded her of the Nazis...but shhhhhhhh.....)

It seems that we humans collectively never learn.

Oh well....maybe next lifetime. LOL..

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Not to take this on another tangent, but on a few other threads there are some who are "finding the good" in Islam. A few others are "minimizing the bad" or "rationalizing the threat away". Both approaches are being taken by all too many throughout the western world right now.

Churchill was regarded as an extremist nut when jumping up and down warning everyone about the Hitlerian Nazi threat.

And then of course we have the Scientology experience/analogy. (Paulette Cooper said Scientology reminded her of the Nazis...but shhhhhhhh.....)

It seems that we humans collectively never learn.

Oh well....maybe next lifetime. LOL..

Yeah, political correctness in handling that other terror cult besides Scientology (i.e. Islamic Extremists) is always fatal.

With Neville Chamberlainesque appeasement, Obama has given the Muslim terrorists free reign and another unfettered 2 year window of opportunity to recruit, train and build their financial and military capability before a Republican president is in office. At that point, I am guessing all hell breaks loose and the US military & intelligence forces are unleashed on the soon to be dead black-flag-waving crazies. That will be good.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Not to take this on another tangent, but on a few other threads there are some who are "finding the good" in Islam. A few others are "minimizing the bad" or "rationalizing the threat away". Both approaches are being taken by all too many throughout the western world right now.

Churchill was regarded as an extremist nut when jumping up and down warning everyone about the Hitlerian Nazi threat.

And then of course we have the Scientology experience/analogy. (Paulette Cooper said Scientology reminded her of the Nazis...but shhhhhhhh.....)

It seems that we humans collectively never learn.

Oh well....maybe next lifetime. LOL..

Fine, but you could take a different starting point on that one. Surely the whole point about Hitler was that he saw the world in exactly the black and white terms you're talking about; i.e. the Germans were a glorious master race whereas Jews, Communists, homosexuals, Slavs etc. were vermin and had to be destroyed?

What if he'd seen the good (or some good) in Jews etc. instead?

Or similarly, what would Scientology be if it saw things in less black and white terms; instead of seeing its critics as enemies who ought to be destroyed, it saw them as people whose intentions were good?

And the same with ISIS, with its wish to re-establish a caliphate and "destroy the infidel" - they don't give too much credit to their enemies (real or imagined) either.

Maybe it's this Manichean, good vs. evil, thinking.that is the whole problem (or at least a large part of it).

 

[Veda]

...



Exactly.

Some ex-scientologists are like the neighbors being interviewed on the evening news--who were quite surprised to see the house next to them closed off and surrounded by yellow crime scene tape, policemen and coroner's office staff scurrying in and out with body bags.

REPORTER
Did you ever have any indication that your next door neighbor
was a serial killer with 58 people buried in his basement?

NEIGHBOR
No, not at all. He was always a good guy to everyone.

​

Any time "obnosis" is used (either by a Scientologist or a Wog) and the word "good" appears, that's a really good time to quickly leave--while you still have a chance.

Except that, at times like this, HH, you're singing to the choir.

My message is not so much to the already convinced but to the tentative lurkers.

And anyone who thinks I've been saying that "Scientology is good" is definitely not paying attention.

I've been getting people out of Scientology - and the Scientology mind-labyrinth - for over thirty years.

I know a little about it.

 

[Lone Star]

Fine, but you could take a different starting point on that one. Surely the whole point about Hitler was that he saw the world in exactly the black and white terms you're talking about; i.e. the Germans were a glorious master race whereas Jews, Communists, homosexuals, Slavs etc. were vermin and had to be destroyed?

What if he'd seen the good (or some good) in Jews etc. instead?

Or similarly, what would Scientology be if it saw things in less black and white terms; instead of seeing its critics as enemies who ought to be destroyed, it saw them as people whose intentions were good?

And the same with ISIS, with its wish to re-establish a caliphate and "destroy the infidel" - they don't give too much credit to their enemies (real or imagined) either.

Maybe it's this Manichean, good vs. evil, thinking.that is the whole problem (or at least a large part of it).

I know you won't agree, and that you just can't see it, but your logic has an appearance of being workable while in fact it is flawed. Very flawed.

I can understand what you are saying and even empathize with it. A Hitler or a leader of ISIS cannot and will not. Why? They are psychopaths. You essentially want to reason with psychopaths. You and your fellow Brits have Chamberlain's syndrome.

No, not all Muslims are psychopaths. Not all Germans were psychopaths. Neither are all members of the CoS.

Is Islam still a threat? Yes. Was Germany a threat in the 3Os? Yes. Is Scientology a threat? Yes.

Why?

Psychopathy of its origins and hierarchy that the lower rungs go into agreement with, and mostly in a hypnotic state.

 

[Leland]

Yeah, political correctness in handling that other terror cult besides Scientology (i.e. Islamic Extremists) is always fatal.

With Neville Chamberlainesque appeasement, Obama has given the Muslim terrorists free reign and another unfettered 2 year window of opportunity to recruit, train and build their financial and military capability before a Republican president is in office. At that point, I am guessing all hell breaks loose and the US military & intelligence forces are unleashed on the soon to be dead black-flag-waving crazies. That will be good.

I think it is more complicated than the above.

THere have been strategic strikes...in places like Yemen....

And I am sure the FBI, NYPD, and CIA and such are doing massive tracking of terrorists suspects world wide....as are other Nations now.

Airport security is vastly increased.

Then there was that whole Arab Spring thing......and waiting to see what would happen with that.....all across Northern African Countries...and Egypt...

The problem is not a small one...there are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world.

Hopefully, Americans and American institutions will wake up to the fact that Islam is a problem....and is not compatible with US Culture....or its Laws.

Screw the PC stuff.....(politically correct)

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Here's a compassionate and insightful piece by Marianne Williamson about the recent events in Paris;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marianne-williamson/how-terror-loses-and-huma_b_6453868.html

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Except that, at times like this, HH, you're singing to the choir.

My message is not so much to the already convinced but to the tentative lurkers.

And anyone who thinks I've been saying that "Scientology is good" is definitely not paying attention.

I've been getting people out of Scientology - and the Scientology mind-labyrinth - for over thirty years.

I know a little about it.

Right!

And just for the record, I wasn't posting anything specifically to you.

When you said it might be good to recognize (acknowledge) the good in Scientology, it didn't bother me a bit. I don't even disagree with your view, but it isn't the way I generally approach untethering people from Scn.

Just different styles.

 

[Veda]

Right!

And just for the record, I wasn't posting anything specifically to you.

When you said it might be good to recognize (acknowledge) the good in Scientology, it didn't bother me a bit. I don't even disagree with your view, but it isn't the way I generally approach untethering people from Scn.

Just different styles.

It's the many different styles that make ESMB such a great MB.

HH, your contribution to ESMB is priceless and irreplaceable.