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Kha Khans - the derail thread on the Saints of Independent $cientology

eldritch cuckoo

brainslugged reptilian
You didn't mention anything. lol. Simply bits and pieces that are "good," twice. Why is S/A good? Why are you recommending an Elcon cult book?

I suppose Veda was referring to a "war strategy" against Scientology ... and not necessarily to his own beliefs. Plain old seduction tek. Thou Shalt Not Use Fallacious Generalities and all that... or the [STRIKE]poor cultie[/STRIKE] potential apostate will probably not ever again look closer at one's arguments. :biggrin:


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Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
I suppose Veda was referring to a "war strategy" against Scientology ... and not necessarily to his own beliefs. Plain old seduction tek. Thou Shalt Not Use Fallacious Generalities and all that... or the [STRIKE]poor cultie[/STRIKE] potential apostate will probably not ever again look closer at one's arguments. :biggrin:


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About-to-be-exes are not the only lurkers here, and everything we say with an eye to getting people out needs to be balanced with an eye to those searching for data before getting in.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
About-to-be-exes are not the only lurkers here, and everything we say with an eye to getting people out needs to be balanced with an eye to those searching for data before getting in.

Huh? How is one (we posters) supposed to do that exactly?

Paul
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
About-to-be-exes are not the only lurkers here, and everything we say with an eye to getting people out needs to be balanced with an eye to those searching for data before getting in.


Exactly right ... they are the reason I still post (apart from just liking the people here) because I've always believed that those already deeply in will leave when they are ready and not before, no matter how or what is said to encourage them out.

I'm not trying to "save the planet" one scientologist at a time, I'm done with all that ... but I love seeing their NPI (new people in) stats crashing because that is what will kill the cult given time.

:)
 

Gib

Crusader
...



Exactly.

Some ex-scientologists are like the neighbors being interviewed on the evening news--who were quite surprised to see the house next to them closed off and surrounded by yellow crime scene tape, policemen and coroner's office staff scurrying in and out with body bags.


REPORTER
Did you ever have any indication that your next door neighbor
was a serial killer with 58 people buried in his basement?

NEIGHBOR
No, not at all. He was always a good guy to everyone.


Any time "obnosis" is used (either by a Scientologist or a Wog) and the word "good" appears, that's a really good time to quickly leave--while you still have a chance.

did you know there was an actual person:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy

some snips from wiki:

" also known as the Killer Clown, was an American serial killer and rapist who was convicted of the sexual assault and murder of a minimum of 33 teenage boys and young men in a series of killings committed between 1972 and 1978 inChicago, Illinois."

"Gacy buried 26 of his victims in the crawl space of his home. Three further victims were buried elsewhere on his property, while the bodies of his last four known victims were discarded in the Des Plaines River."

"Gacy became known as the "Killer Clown" due to his charitable services at fundraising events, parades and children's parties where he would dress as "Pogo the Clown", a character he devised himself."
 

Veda

Sponsor
Through the combined efforts of many people, hundreds, probably thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, have been inoculated from involvement in Scientology. And as many have been extricated from Scientology.
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
Through the combined efforts of many people, hundreds, probably thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, have been inoculated from involvement in Scientology. And as many have been extricated from Scientology.

I once confided to my oldest niece (who's only a year younger than my wife btw) that I'd gotten few if any culties to see the light and leave by all my work protesting, going on media etc. etc.. I felt like a bit of a failure because of that.

She very logically said that that a lot of people who had seen me on TV or heard me on radio or read what the newspapers had said would now never go near a cult, let alone $cientology. Because I came across as honest and believable and "they" couldn't no matter what they said or did.

THAT was the point where I stopped worrying about the "still-ins" and started to really enjoy lampooning the cult as much as possible. I wasn't trying for "stats" of any sort any more, just getting the message out there about the real truth of this toxic cult. Those who still are on a Kool-Aid drip-feed won't listen to me anyway because I'm an obvious SP.:biggrin:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
did you know there was an actual person:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy

some snips from wiki:

" also known as the Killer Clown, was an American serial killer and rapist who was convicted of the sexual assault and murder of a minimum of 33 teenage boys and young men in a series of killings committed between 1972 and 1978 inChicago, Illinois."

"Gacy buried 26 of his victims in the crawl space of his home. Three further victims were buried elsewhere on his property, while the bodies of his last four known victims were discarded in the Des Plaines River."

"Gacy became known as the "Killer Clown" due to his charitable services at fundraising events, parades and children's parties where he would dress as "Pogo the Clown", a character he devised himself."



Yeah, I know.

Virtually every mass murderer, serial killer and psychopath has a next door neighbor that will happily describe him as a "nice guy!" or "really good guy!" or "great guy!" (Google it, if you have 24 uninterrupted hours to read examples, lol)

This is what Scientologists call "Obnosis". For further proof of this, ask any Scientologist what they think about "COB" or "The Commodore".

The only difference between wogs who delusionally think a serial murderer is a super good guy and a scientologist who delusionally thinks Hubbard is "super theta", is that the latter will not only heap praise upon the sociopath--they will also stand up and applaud his wall photograph.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
I once confided to my oldest niece (who's only a year younger than my wife btw) that I'd gotten few if any culties to see the light and leave by all my work protesting, going on media etc. etc.. I felt like a bit of a failure because of that.

She very logically said that that a lot of people who had seen me on TV or heard me on radio or read what the newspapers had said would now never go near a cult, let alone $cientology. Because I came across as honest and believable and "they" couldn't no matter what they said or did.

THAT was the point where I stopped worrying about the "still-ins" and started to really enjoy lampooning the cult as much as possible. I wasn't trying for "stats" of any sort any more, just getting the message out there about the real truth of this toxic cult. Those who still are on a Kool-Aid drip-feed won't listen to me anyway because I'm an obvious SP.:biggrin:

I believe it's a collective effort on everyone's part with each spoken word, story and dox a ripple of truth radiating outward as disinfectant sunshine that comes from the heart. Who can say how far those ripples undulate outward, each voice has its value.

Yes I believe you're right regarding those with Elcon cult-think still in them. Those human beings when they are ready, if ever, will question the cognitive dissonance at some inner tipping point hopefully reclaiming themselves layer by layer.

I don't thank and appreciate everyone's humanity enough so I would like to say thank you all for what you do. Your genuine noble caring is breathtaking. Let's take a moment reflecting how far each of us has come and who we each are as human beings. In spite of a cult I feel each of us turned out pretty damn well with a lot to be grateful for.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't know if I belong as a topic in this thread, but if anyone is feeling reticent about saying what's on their mind because I'm not dead yet and might get upset or something, don't worry about it. I'm very happy to say, "Go ahead — ask me anything."

Paul

I don't see why you should be. I started this thread because there seemed to me to be places - dark places - people had either willfully or out of habit shied away from exploring. And when I was told by one of the Old Guard that I should not be looking there - well, I bristled. And so should everyone who wants to shine a light on all of the history of the Co$.

You've never been one of those dark places. I may not agree with you - hell I went as far as to use your robot to make sure I don't agree with you - but I'm not the only one who does, openly, on the board. You are a valuable part of the conversation, not least because people openly disagree with you.

The final chapters have not been written on either the early days of the cult. I think that Sara's journey out of Ron's clutches is of utmost interest to those now beginning to undertake that journey. I think her background with the OTO and her possible contributions to early Dianetics are of the utmost interest, not only to scholars of religion, but to those who would seek to untangle the myths of the origins of the Co$ in order to keep another cult from rising in its ashes. Anyone who seeks to hide any of that is doing many different people a grave disservice.

And I think it is important, vitally important, that the hypocrisy and abuses of those who make big bucks off of Laffy Lite be exposed. The reason I locked on Mayo among others was that I truly think that a large part of his processing at the AAC was a genuine attempt at "repairs". But the Type III thread is exposing how dangerous that was. Like many others on the boards, I have an eye on the lurkers. But it's not the run-of-the mill fleeced lurker who has reached the end of his / her patience, but is still trying to preserve a shred of dignity by believing there was more cheese in the trap than can be actually shown, who has my attention.

No.

It's the undiagnosed bipolar, the PC with major depression, the epileptic told to avoid their meds - these are the cases that haunt my imagination. And leading them to continue believe that any form of Laffy Lite is going to take the place of a medical professional (something of which I am not aware you or Terril have ever done) is going to actively harm them. Every long time protester who maintains that there is some vague good in the tech - without specifying what that may be - gives that person with the dangerous condition that much more reason to continue to delude themselves. And who knows when the next blow to their psyche - like the FZ auditor who, by repeating some form of Laffy's crap leads the suicidal gay 2nd gen teen to keep on believing he or she can be "fixed" - who knows when that is gong to kill someone. That's the lurker who haunts my imagination.

I have no desire, as ITYIWT said, to "drag Mayo's name through the mud", but any bad outcomes from the AAC have to come to light so that those lurkers I am most concerned about can see that even the most well meaning of tech fixes can be a cobblestone on the road to hell. If Mayo's as good a guy as his reputation makes him out to be, I'd like to think he'd a agree, even if it makes him complicit in some bad stuff. He was peeling the onion, then. But the docs who put leeches on George Washington killed the man too early. They meant well. They, too were peeling the onion of ignorance, but that doesn't change the fact that their incompetence killed a man. And hopefully we learn from their mistakes, because the cold, hard light of science has been shone on their actions.

And if Mayo is still running Laffy Lite, I think the board has an interest in knowing that, too. Anyone who thinks not can put the posters or the threads on ignore.

I think that what's left of Alan's network needs to be squashed like a cockroach, though.

Maybe this is a personal bugbear because I'm a non-MD in the medical field. I've had MDs check over and double check every protocol I've ever written out of fear I added or omitted something that is going to hurt someone. I find it offensive to everything I hold dear when I read shit like this:

What is there to believe?


On the original Saint Hill Briefing Course the intent was to train
until you know.


My target when I did that course was to be able to audit anyone on
anything.


Ron tried to graduate me in February of 1963; I refused as I had not
achieved my target. It took a further 7 months to reach that target.


There wasn't a case I couldn't audit.


There were many I wouldn't but that had to do with were they worth
investing the time and effort.


I have probably audited over 10,000 people over the years mainly I
would take them on of they were completely screwed up.


I never failed.


The reason being is I knew I did not know what was wrong with any of
them.


So I would start the session in this unknown.


I would just sit there waiting.


Always the PC would tell me what was wrong in the first minute.


That would give me what I needed to unravel the PC and their tangled
mess of a case.


It never failed, didn't matter what shape they were in.....I did have a
time when they were brought to me unconscious in wheel barrows and they
were placed on the floor. But I knew they were ambulatory an hour or
two ago, so I just had to find what went wrong, as most of these PC's
were on GPM running I had a pretty good idea what was out. I even made
a correction list.....this was how correction lists came into being.


I originated the locate and indicate technology and the original 1st L1
and L4 correction lists.


Here it is almost 43 years later and I still love to audit and I still
love to audit wants in front of me.


There are many people in the Independent field who have achieved this
level of mastery and knowing.


So what is being run will vary from case to case. That is as it should
be.


Thus it will appear that each Independent practitioner is doing
something different, but they are not, they are auditing the PC in
front of them, beliefs have nothing to do with anything.


Alan

Bolds and colors are mine.

Hol. Lee. Shit.

He's bragging about writing some of the Ls?

IIRC, aside from OTIII, the part of the tech where most people seem to have Type III issues is on the L's. I'd love to see Sheila's collation from that thread to see if there is evidence for that sentiment, but the sentiment has been expressed multiple times IIRC. I"ll dig through the board to see when I get a better internet connection.

Never. Fucking. Failed?!?!?!? He never failed? God, now is he?

Jeezus. No one ever called him on this? Anywhere? (I don't think he ever posted anything that brazen here, though. He was a lot of things, but stupid wasn't one of them).

There's a lot more, just from what he posted here. His claimed complicity with financial con man Kiyosaki (leading to indirect complicity with Marshall Thurber) among others.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Huh? How is one (we posters) supposed to do that exactly?

Paul

By delineating what, if any good we see in the cult, and exactly where that "good" goes off the rails. Vaguee descriptions of good, even coupled with severe warnings, sound good to people who may think they have few other options and decide to roll the dice. The dice here are loaded, and people need to know that up front. Desperate people still go for laetrile for God's sake, because some shills are still out there singing its praises on the fringes of the internet.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Yeah, I know.

Virtually every mass murderer, serial killer and psychopath has a next door neighbor that will happily describe him as a "nice guy!" or "really good guy!" or "great guy!" (Google it, if you have 24 uninterrupted hours to read examples, lol)

This is what Scientologists call "Obnosis". For further proof of this, ask any Scientologist what they think about "COB" or "The Commodore".

The only difference between wogs who delusionally think a serial murderer is a super good guy and a scientologist who delusionally thinks Hubbard is "super theta", is that the latter will not only heap praise upon the sociopath--they will also stand up and applaud his wall photograph.

LRH_Granada2.jpg

L. Ron Hubbard defrauded his followers out of hundreds of millions of dollars, instigated the largest infiltration of the U.S. government in history throwing his wife under the bus in the process, lied about not having a secret Swiss bank account and where his money was coming from, attempted and in many cases successfully destroyed anyone trying to stop him, lied about his marriages, abducted his daughter taking her out of the country when his marriage failed, lied about the number of his marriages, wrote the F.B.I regularly smearing his ex-wife and and again anyone who stood in his way labeling them as insane and/or communists, lied about his academic, military and life history, when convicted in France went into hiding until his death, formed an intelligence/espionage/propaganda group (GO/OSA) to viciously lie, ruin and destroy anyone at his whim, created a mind control cult that to this day run by DM is doing just as Hubbard did, a crime-wave of abuse, human trafficking, extortion, blackmail, lies, murder, spying, suicide, bait and switch cons, and ...........

L. Ron Hubbard wanted to be known as "Mankind's Greatest Friend" and "Ron The Humanitarian."


I don't think so.

With a resume' like that who in the world would think L. Ron Hubbard is a "good" guy? I already know the answer. Cringe.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
It always seemed to me that auditing was basically around 80% sales tek and 20% "auditing tek" ... hubbard knew that when you take someone into your space, shut up and listen while retaining eye contact it does something positive, it makes the person feel you are really there for them and are interested.

So first and foremost he trained every scientologist in "TR"s, then chucked in the "comm formula, tone scale and dissemination formula" too.

Main job done.

Auditors got the "auditing tek" in addition and though it seemed a lot most of it was repetitive BS once the basics were grasped, as far as I can tell.

For recruiters, FSM's and regges, Big League Sales by Les Dane was heavily pushed along with the full sales courses.

The auditing tek used without the sales tek wouldn't work, it would be cold and severely lacking, but if someone (the therapist/auditor) could fake empathy and appear professional then sales tek used without the auditing tek certainly could get results. If this person also had a reputation (loads of sycophantic hangers on) and some charisma and presence ... he probably could "handle any case" as many freezoners later [STRIKE]discovered[/STRIKE] believed.

The auditing tek is really a very small part of the whole thing, puffed up to appear substantial and to provide a product to sell ... someone with a half decent personality can help another human being if they want to just by being there and giving a toss (normal people do it all the time genuinely) ... the effect may not last forever, but neither do auditing results which is why tubs hubbard forced people to write a success story while they are still happy.

I suspect hubbard felt that two of the biggest assets any therapist could have are presence and personality ... tubs used training to subdue some personality traits and put emphasis on others to make the "perfect" generic auditor.

I also believe most successful therapists (and people in general) are often good salespeople and (especially in decades past) that alone could suck people in.

Hubbard was all about the sales, nothing more and nothing less.

I've waffled ... sorry, it all made sense to me at some stage while writing it (lol).


:biggrin:



 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
By delineating what, if any good we see in the cult, and exactly where that "good" goes off the rails. Vaguee descriptions of good, even coupled with severe warnings, sound good to people who may think they have few other options and decide to roll the dice. The dice here are loaded, and people need to know that up front. Desperate people still go for laetrile for God's sake, because some shills are still out there singing its praises on the fringes of the internet.


The bad in the cult is that the tech doesn't work.

People figure that out and leave.

However, the good in the cult is also that the tech doesn't work.

Because that also causes people to leave.

The explanation for this bizarre paradox is that Scientology is, at its core, a cruel hoax that was always intended to enslave mankind to the leader's dark vision and benefit.

If anything within Scientology produced a positive benefit, it was due to the sheer avalanche of contradictory theories & practices--playing out in accordance with the law of averages.
 
I don't see why you should be. I started this thread because there seemed to me to be places - dark places - people had either willfully or out of habit shied away from exploring. And when I was told by one of the Old Guard that I should not be looking there - well, I bristled. And so should everyone who wants to shine a light on all of the history of the Co$.

You've never been one of those dark places. I may not agree with you - hell I went as far as to use your robot to make sure I don't agree with you - but I'm not the only one who does, openly, on the board. You are a valuable part of the conversation, not least because people openly disagree with you.

The final chapters have not been written on either the early days of the cult. I think that Sara's journey out of Ron's clutches is of utmost interest to those now beginning to undertake that journey. I think her background with the OTO and her possible contributions to early Dianetics are of the utmost interest, not only to scholars of religion, but to those who would seek to untangle the myths of the origins of the Co$ in order to keep another cult from rising in its ashes. Anyone who seeks to hide any of that is doing many different people a grave disservice.

And I think it is important, vitally important, that the hypocrisy and abuses of those who make big bucks off of Laffy Lite be exposed. The reason I locked on Mayo among others was that I truly think that a large part of his processing at the AAC was a genuine attempt at "repairs". But the Type III thread is exposing how dangerous that was. Like many others on the boards, I have an eye on the lurkers. But it's not the run-of-the mill fleeced lurker who has reached the end of his / her patience, but is still trying to preserve a shred of dignity by believing there was more cheese in the trap than can be actually shown, who has my attention.

No.

It's the undiagnosed bipolar, the PC with major depression, the epileptic told to avoid their meds - these are the cases that haunt my imagination. And leading them to continue believe that any form of Laffy Lite is going to take the place of a medical professional (something of which I am not aware you or Terril have ever done) is going to actively harm them. Every long time protester who maintains that there is some vague good in the tech - without specifying what that may be - gives that person with the dangerous condition that much more reason to continue to delude themselves. And who knows when the next blow to their psyche - like the FZ auditor who, by repeating some form of Laffy's crap leads the suicidal gay 2nd gen teen to keep on believing he or she can be "fixed" - who knows when that is gong to kill someone. That's the lurker who haunts my imagination.

I have no desire, as ITYIWT said, to "drag Mayo's name through the mud", but any bad outcomes from the AAC have to come to light so that those lurkers I am most concerned about can see that even the most well meaning of tech fixes can be a cobblestone on the road to hell. If Mayo's as good a guy as his reputation makes him out to be, I'd like to think he'd a agree, even if it makes him complicit in some bad stuff. He was peeling the onion, then. But the docs who put leeches on George Washington killed the man too early. They meant well. They, too were peeling the onion of ignorance, but that doesn't change the fact that their incompetence killed a man. And hopefully we learn from their mistakes, because the cold, hard light of science has been shone on their actions.

And if Mayo is still running Laffy Lite, I think the board has an interest in knowing that, too. Anyone who thinks not can put the posters or the threads on ignore.

I think that what's left of Alan's network needs to be squashed like a cockroach, though.

Maybe this is a personal bugbear because I'm a non-MD in the medical field. I've had MDs check over and double check every protocol I've ever written out of fear I added or omitted something that is going to hurt someone. I find it offensive to everything I hold dear when I read shit like this:



Bolds and colors are mine.

Hol. Lee. Shit.

He's bragging about writing some of the Ls?

IIRC, aside from OTIII, the part of the tech where most people seem to have Type III issues is on the L's. I'd love to see Sheila's collation from that thread to see if there is evidence for that sentiment, but the sentiment has been expressed multiple times IIRC. I"ll dig through the board to see when I get a better internet connection.

Never. Fucking. Failed?!?!?!? He never failed? God, now is he?

Jeezus. No one ever called him on this? Anywhere? (I don't think he ever posted anything that brazen here, though. He was a lot of things, but stupid wasn't one of them).

There's a lot more, just from what he posted here. His claimed complicity with financial con man Kiyosaki (leading to indirect complicity with Marshall Thurber) among others.



http://www.forum.exscn.net/search.php?searchid=5308368
 
Last edited:

Leland

Crusader
That link doesn't work....DB

I too find the Sara....OTO and then the appearance of Hubbard....and their getting together very interesting.

That she had a very long OTO background....and then helped Hubbard with writing the Dianectics book ....well that is just amazing.

That she did get away from Hubbard....and the Black PR and Black Ops that he ran on her....WOW.

That she did say he was completely crazy....that says a lot.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron

DB, that link does not work for me, either, but if you are referring to this post:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?64-My-disappointment&p=429&viewfull=1#post429

I don't think it's as brazen as the off-ESMB post, do you? It's missing the hyperbolic 10,000, it's missing the "never failed", and it's missing the claim of writing the grades.

Alan was a master salesman, and he knew just how far to push his audience. I think he intuitively knew that all the deference he was shown through lack of pushback on his more outrageous claims came from a desire to hear about the cult's origins from someone of his stature in the cult at the time. That deference would have been overwhelmed, at least for some, if he packed all that crap into one post. I think even back in 2007 there would have been one or two WTF moments on the full statement. Or am I wrong, and was his stature on the board back then great enough to breeze past even that gigantic mound of horse shit?
 
That link doesn't work....DB

I too find the Sara....OTO and then the appearance of Hubbard....and their getting together very interesting.

That she had a very long OTO background....and then helped Hubbard with writing the Dianectics book ....well that is just amazing.

That she did get away from Hubbard....and the Black PR and Black Ops that he ran on her....WOW.

That she did say he was completely crazy....that says a lot.

I have replaced it with a link that works.
 
DB, that link does not work for me, either, but if you are referring to this post:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?64-My-disappointment&p=429&viewfull=1#post429

I don't think it's as brazen as the off-ESMB post, do you? It's missing the hyperbolic 10,000, it's missing the "never failed", and it's missing the claim of writing the grades.

Alan was a master salesman, and he knew just how far to push his audience. I think he intuitively knew that all the deference he was shown through lack of pushback on his more outrageous claims came from a desire to hear about the cult's origins from someone of his stature in the cult at the time. That deference would have been overwhelmed, at least for some, if he packed all that crap into one post. I think even back in 2007 there would have been one or two WTF moments on the full statement. Or am I wrong, and was his stature on the board back then great enough to breeze past even that gigantic mound of horse shit?

I have replaced the non-working link. It is D Mayo's posts on ESMB. I think he makes his position clear on what he thinks of scientology and his regrets about it.
 
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