KHTK Essays
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nozeno
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I wasn't reading.
I was skimming and getting the flavor.
You never know, my little doggy may wake "someone" up.
PirateAndBum
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I'm sorry, but to say "KNOWABLE is that which is manifested. UNKNOWABLE cannot be defined because there is nothing manifested to be defined." is a contradiction. You might think I am mincing words, but I am not. You define the UNKNOWABLE and then state it cannot be defined!
What does this concept/action of "definition" entail?
The UNKNOWABLE is you/us. You can't be defined? You complain that Hubbard assigned all these attributes to a "thetan", which for you IS the unknowable. Is not definition but the specification of the qualities of a thing?
It appears you are just upset about giving this unknowable a different label than the label which you assign. Unknowable is a label. And I maintain this is not a good label to slap upon yourself.
It is quite clear to me that the UNKNOWABLE has properties which are known!
Are you certain you exist?
Science has skirted the issue consciousness for quite some time. I am surprised you wish to follow that same path.
You can perceive it = You are it
If you can prove that THAT is false with perfect certainty you will will have dis-proven consciousness. The only way we know about anything is through our conscious experience. THAT is all that is available to us to sense.
It is not possible to prove with perfect certainty that the physical universe is an "actuality", i.e. that the things you see out around you are really "out there". What you can have perfect certainty of is that you have a conscious experience. You see a wall, what you are "seeing" is not the actual wall. You are seeing a SYMBOL not the actual referrent (wall). What you see is the SYMBOL - your conscious experience of a wall. Is there actually a wall there? Of that you cannot be perfectly certain. Perfect certainty is a precise thing. Even if you are hallucinating a wall. You certainly would agree that you are seeing that wall in your conscious experience. You wouldn't accuse someone who sees what to you are clearly hallucinations of not actually having the conscious experience he is having, that "he's just a lying SOB, he doesn't really see those bugs crawling on him" would you?
I am flabbergasted you would say this! That is really very very funny.
You sound like a scientist
This avoidance of what you call a "distraction" has wound us up right where we sit today as a planetary population - in the soup.It's time the subject of consciousness became a scientific study of primary importance. Since it is the source of everything that you or anyone else will ever experience. To dismiss it as a distraction is a grievous mistake that has been going on for quite some time in the hallowed halls of science and religion.
IMO the study physics is a sub-domain of the study of consciousness.
KHTK is nothing but an exercise in looking at one's conscious experience. Never at any time is one directly perceiving anything other than this. There is NO WAY to directly perceive a wall. In the PU it is all a system of vias. At no point is the actual wall directly perceived. The only direct perception we have available IS conscious experience.
Thus, to label conscious experience UNKNOWABLE and a distraction is not wise IMO.
You can discount/discard Homer's "Proof" if you will, but I'd be more interested in someone disproving it.
I guess you're just insisting that the something which manifests is UNKNOWABLE and thus not relevant (distraction). On these points we disagree. Something manifests. To say nothing can be known about that something is an error. One thing for sure IS known about this "UNKNOWABLE": It manifests! Can we know more about it? I think so. Just as the source of space and time cannot be understood with perfect certainty within the domain of space and time, the understanding of that which manifests can not be understood from it's own domain. Is their a higher domain? I dunno. To state with that there is no such higher domain is but a theory. Conscious experience is not a theory. You exist or do you doubt that you exist? From within the domain we can learn many things. We know a lot about space and time from within that domain, thus there is much we can know about consciousness that we currently do not understand, like how this common experience we are having works. These things are not in the domain of the physical universe, they are in the domain of consciousness. Trying to wrap your wits around a zero-dimensional spaceless timeless something that can manifest any number of vast universes is quite difficult given our long history of playing within the realms of dimensionality. But there is more to be known about it. Giving it the label "UNKNOWABLE" is not helpful to that pursuit. Certainly there are things which are unknowable from our current state of awareness. I just think you've stuck a flag in the ground far too short of the actual boundaries.
There is peace in knowing who/what you really are. Having that peace WHILE at the same time one practices KHTK is a nice bonus.
How did God/We come to be? Well maybe that is unknowable. But short of that there's quite a large realm to explore.
Namaste
PirateAndBum
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I certainly don't want to derail your thread about KHTK and would be happy to continue the discussion elsewhere here or on another forum if you think that would be more appropriate.
Vinaire
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You are simply looking at my thought, which is knowable as a thought.
"God" is a thought about the UNKNOWABLE. "Thetan" is a thought about the UNKNOWABLE. What I am writing here is a a thought about the UNKNOWABLE.
One may only know these thoughts. These thoughts are KNOWABLE.
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Vinaire
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This is a speculation on the UNKNOWABLE.
Please see the essay on THE NATURE OF THOUGHT.
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Vinaire
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That is exactly what happens when you contemplate on UNKNOWABLE, instead of simply recognizing the UNKNOWABLE.
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Vinaire
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Vinaire
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“I”, “You”, “Us”, etc. are labels for UNKNOWABLE. Right now you are speculating.
And I am speculating too.
But I know it..
PirateAndBum
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OK, I reread this and I'm seeing better now where you are coming from.
What do you think about this: Manifestation is an action. Something is manifesting. When that something ceases the action of manifesting, well, it has just stopped doing what it was doing. Just because you stop doing something doesn't mean you cease to exist. Maybe you just take a nice nap and then start manifesting again. I know it freezes up one's mind to try and think about such things.
It seems "knowable" for you requires a something (if only a thought). If there isn't a something you haven't got a "knowable", thus the state of "nothing known" is a state of unknowable. I guess I would maintain that you just have a state of "nothing manifested". Paradoxes only exist when something is not understood fully. If you exist yet you are not manifesting anything, than to say you know you exist, well, you've just stated that something is known... Catch-22. I will agree that at this point that I can't wrap my wits about that one.
Maybe it's just a problem in definition. How the something that manifests came to exist might well be unknowable. But the manifester does exist, that much I do know - we're here.What is very clear to me though is that more can be known about consciousness. And that any true understanding of this universe is going to come about through an understanding of our consciousness and that which observes it. Thus KHTK is useful when one understands that one is looking one's own conscious experience and is not in the delusion that one is actually viewing something other than that. Science cannot prove the physical universe is actually there. That's pretty amazing in and of itself. Maybe I'm just dumb and everyone's known this all along about science and it's method. For me it was an eye-opener. That is the "looking" I've recently been doing. I highly recommend it!
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AlphOhm
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Naaaaa, Vinnie--it is just some of that terrible "Western thought" for you to consider. Obnosis: this is where the bear shits in the woods.
nozeno
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When a person is speculating but does not know he is speculating then the result is
.
Duh!
That's why I posted it (many times)
You may proceed to Qual to attest then get your bum down to the Registrar.
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