KHTK Essays

[PirateAndBum]

“I”, “You”, “Us”, etc. are labels for UNKNOWABLE. Right now you are speculating.

And I am speculating too. But I know it.

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Yup. I just don't like that label

Science is speculating too. hehe

That which can and does speculate IS. Of that I am perfectly certain. Praise be to the UNKNOWN

 

[PinkyandTheGrey]

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[Vinaire]

Naaaaa, Vinnie--it is just some of that terrible "Western thought" for you to consider. Obnosis: this is where the bear shits in the woods.

All I see is a picture of a bear proably shitting in the woods. I assumed that you were asking some philosophical question that I don't remember anyway.

Oh, well! I am just too dumb.

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[Vinaire]

Duh!

That's why I posted it (many times)

You may proceed to Qual to attest then get your bum down to the Registrar.

Sorry! you are so witty that sometimes it takes me time to understand you.

Maybe I still don't get you fully. You, westerner, you...

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[Vinaire]

...

What do you think about this: Manifestation is an action. Something is manifesting. When that something ceases the action of manifesting, well, it has just stopped doing what it was doing. Just because you stop doing something doesn't mean you cease to exist. Maybe you just take a nice nap and then start manifesting again. I know it freezes up one's mind to try and think about such things.

...

Existence comes about when there is manifestation. When there is no manifestation then there is no existence.

So, there can't be something already existing before it manifests itself. If there were something already existing then it was already manifested.

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[Vinaire]

Yup. I just don't like that label

Science is speculating too. hehe

That which can and does speculate IS. Of that I am perfectly certain. Praise be to the UNKNOWN

Maybe I should give you a KHTK session to address that dislike... just kidding!

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[Vinaire]

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It is quite clear to me that the UNKNOWABLE has properties which are known!

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Well to me, when there is no manifestation then it cannot be known. That is why it is unknowable.

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[Vinaire]

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Are you certain you exist?

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I am manifested as a thought package, therefore, I exist.

Existence depends on manifestation.

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[Vinaire]

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You can perceive it = You are it

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“You” is a thought package resulting from identification with thought.

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[Vinaire]

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If you can prove that THAT is false with perfect certainty you will will have dis-proven consciousness. The only way we know about anything is through our conscious experience. THAT is all that is available to us to sense.

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We can become aware of something only when it is manifested. We can only know that something is manifested by being aware of that fact.

Thus, “manifestation” and “awareness of manifestation” go hand in hand. They occur simultaneously. Actually, awareness seems to be an element of manifestation itself.

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[nozeno]

Sorry! you are so witty that sometimes it takes me time to understand you.

Maybe I still don't get you fully. You, westerner, you...

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I'm pithy too.

Also a dilettante student of Advaita Vedanta.

 

[Vinaire]

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It is not possible to prove with perfect certainty that the physical universe is an "actuality", i.e. that the things you see out around you are really "out there". What you can have perfect certainty of is that you have a conscious experience. You see a wall, what you are "seeing" is not the actual wall. You are seeing a SYMBOL not the actual referrent (wall). What you see is the SYMBOL - your conscious experience of a wall. Is there actually a wall there? Of that you cannot be perfectly certain. Perfect certainty is a precise thing. Even if you are hallucinating a wall. You certainly would agree that you are seeing that wall in your conscious experience. You wouldn't accuse someone who sees what to you are clearly hallucinations of not actually having the conscious experience he is having, that "he's just a lying SOB, he doesn't really see those bugs crawling on him" would you?

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You only see your interpretation of the incoming stimuli.

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[Vinaire]

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VINAIRE: “Focus on the source of knowledge is a distraction.”

I am flabbergasted you would say this! That is really very very funny.

You sound like a scientist This avoidance of what you call a "distraction" has wound us up right where we sit today as a planetary population - in the soup.

It's time the subject of consciousness became a scientific study of primary importance. Since it is the source of everything that you or anyone else will ever experience. To dismiss it as a distraction is a grievous mistake that has been going on for quite some time in the hallowed halls of science and religion.

IMO the study physics is a sub-domain of the study of consciousness.

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How is that an avoidance of consciousness? Knowledge is knowledge. Does it matter who put forth a piece of knowledge?

A piece of knowledge needs to be evaluated for itself. The character of who said it should have no bearing on it.

I kid about East and West. But knowledge is knowledge. It doesn't matter if it came from East or from West. Any consideration of source simply brings in ego.

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[Vinaire]

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KHTK is nothing but an exercise in looking at one's conscious experience. Never at any time is one directly perceiving anything other than this. There is NO WAY to directly perceive a wall. In the PU it is all a system of vias. At no point is the actual wall directly perceived. The only direct perception we have available IS conscious experience.

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KHTK is simply looking at something for what it is, without any prior assumptions or filters.

If there actually is a system of vias then you look at that system and recognize it for what it is.

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[Vinaire]

I'm pithy too.

Also a dilettante student of Advaita Vedanta.

Sir! you are so knowledgeable and you use such witty words that I am forced to look them up in a dictionary to try to understand the depth of what you so kindly say.

I bow down to the honorable student of Advaita Vedanta.

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[Vinaire]

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Thus, to label conscious experience UNKNOWABLE and a distraction is not wise IMO.

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All conscious experience is manifested and KNOWABLE.

UNKNOWABLE is “absence of manifestation.”

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[Vinaire]

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You can discount/discard Homer's "Proof" if you will, but I'd be more interested in someone disproving it.

Homer’s Proof

"There Can be nothing outside of the AllThatIs!

Space and time look like they are outside of you, but in fact they are inside you. There is more space and time inside you than could ever be dreamed to be outside." - Homer W Smith

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AllThatIs would be all that is manifested and knowable.

UNKNOWABLE would not even be considered by AllThatIs because it is not manifested.

“You” is a thought package. It has a dimension (space), and also energy, matter and time.

PS: I think I have said enough to cover rest of your original post. If I have left out something relevant, please do let me know.

Thanks,
Vinaire

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[Vinaire]

In Scn 8-8008, Section "Beingness", Hubbard says:

However, in this universe, in order to achieve a state of beingness, which is more to our point here, it is necessary to have a viewpoint from which dimension points can be created or controlled. One has as much viewpoint as he has space in which to view in relationship to other viewpoints having space in which to view, thus one has a condition of relative beingness.

This universe is a universe of manifestation. Outside of this universe there is no manifestation.

Beingness is a manifestation. Therefore, beingness can exist only within this universe. Outside of this universe there can be no beingness. If beingness is manifested it has to be within this universe of manifestation.

This universe is being or existing.Therefore, the nature of this universe is BEINGNESS. There is awareness of this universe existing. This awareness is associated with the space of this universe.

A viewpoint is a particle of awareness that exists within the overall field of awareness associated with this universe. A dimension point is any particle that comes into awareness.

A viewpoint can identify itself with dimension points and thus become more fixed. This would be an IDENTITY. Condition of relative beingness could mean relative identities.

The only dimension points that a viewpoint can directly create and control are THOUGHTS. It can control other things only through a concatenation of thoughts.

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[PirateAndBum]

Thanks V!

To looking! :baby1:

 

[Vinaire]

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It seems "knowable" for you requires a something (if only a thought). If there isn't a something you haven't got a "knowable", thus the state of "nothing known" is a state of unknowable. I guess I would maintain that you just have a state of "nothing manifested". Paradoxes only exist when something is not understood fully. If you exist yet you are not manifesting anything, than to say you know you exist, well, you've just stated that something is known... Catch-22. I will agree that at this point that I can't wrap my wits about that one. Maybe it's just a problem in definition. How the something that manifests came to exist might well be unknowable. But the manifester does exist, that much I do know - we're here.

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UNKNOWABLE = “absence of manifestation”

YOU EXIST = “You is manifested” = “You is knowable” = “You is something”

There is no paradox. People just bought it from Hubbard that

A beingness can exist that is not manifested. (This is a falsehood).

It is a falsehood that “you” can exist and still be not manifested. The truth is that “you” is a consideration. It is an identification with thought.

A beingness, at any level, consists of space-energy-matter and time. (This is the truth).

How is a manifestation perceived = This is part and parcel of manifestation.

How does a manifestation come about = UNKNOWABLE

I believe that

(1) THOUGHT is manifested due to the effort to know the UNKNOWABLE.

(2) A manifestation may result from the effort of UNKNOWABLE to know UNKNOWABLE.

(3) But this is a consideration or THOUGHT, and it puts us back at (1).

We are on a merry-go-round.

This whole universe exists because of the effort to know the UNKNOWABLE.

Manifestations are taking place to figure out what is not manifested.

Stable data, such as, "I" or thetan, is the result of identification with a consideration.

What I am writing here could itself become a stable data for some.

This is fun, fun, fun!

Or,

"Oh! Fuck!"

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