L. Ron Hubbard - The REAL reason people leave Scientology: ARC Breaks

Veda

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1982-abc-2020-blind.jpg


Probably a lot of work and digging...but curious when and where these 2 crossed paths.

Bill Franks.....was the CO of FCDC when I got on lines at age 17, in 1972?

Jeannie Franks was there...as were several other original OT 7s.....all Sea Org....but out of uniform except a couple...

I never talked to Franks...but to say hello maybe a couple times.

Don't know when Franks became ED Int.....or what Marty Rathbun was doing at the time...

Perhaps they could have been on the Apollo at the same time?

Marty Rathbun wasn't on the Apollo. Mike Rinder was, however.

Don't remember when Franks was kicked out exactly either.....

But the rumor floating around PAC at the time....(for us public) was that Franks had been a CIA plant.

That really tickled me......that anyone would think that....or swallow that one.

But of course....my blinders stayed on.....and I didn't blink about Franks being pilloried...


Below are some re-posts from ESMB which may provide some additional background.

By 1981, L. Ron Hubbard had decided to remove Mary Sue, who was headed for prison, and this was accomplished by, first, ordering that the CMO [Commodore's Messenger Org] would be senior to the G.O. [Guardians Office]. At the time, Hubbard was concerned about his own well being and comfort, with continuing to bleed Scientology of as much money as possible, which would go into his private overseas bank accounts, and with avoiding process servers, grand juries, and judges. The "shredding party" had just taken place, the purpose of which was to destroy all evidence of Hubbard having ordered anything illegal.

15 years earlier, in 1966, Hubbard had announced that he had "resigned" as "Executive Director" of Scientology, and was entirely concerned with research and writing. He did this while starting the Guardians Office, which he secretly ran and, also, a year later, becoming the "Commodore" of the Sea Organization.


The following is an excerpt from the 1987 book, 'Messiah or Madman?', and gives some idea of the amount of secrecy and intrigue involved in Scientology. [See the 'Bolivar' "pink legs" Policy Letter of 1967 for some insight into this mindset.] It is based on interviews with Franks done in the mid 1980s.


Around 1981, Bill Franks had been appointed by Hubbard as "Executive Director," but what exactly did that mean?:



When... Mary Sue's defense was seen as futile, and the legal heat was being directed increasingly at Hubbard himself, Hubbard ordered a 'palace coup' by his 'kids' (his youthful messengers)...

David Miscavige 'handled' Mary Sue Hubbard, and Bill Franks was assigned to 'handle' the head of the Guardian's Office, Jane Kember.

The entire old G.O. was headed for jail. Hubbard ordered his messengers to set up a 'Watchdog Committee'.

In early 1981 Hubbard also created a new post of Executive Director International. This was announced to be a resumption of the post 'vacated by L. Ron Hubbard in 1966'. The new appointment to Executive Director was Bill Franks...

It was presented to Franks that he would be assuming all of Hubbard's administrative functions. However, Bill told me years later, after leaving the Church, that he had since concluded that Hubbard set him up in order to help him rid himself of Jane Kember...

What was actually happening at the time of the mission holders' meeting was that Bill had been 'put in charge' as an additional façade for Hubbard. Bill was supposed to have 'instinctively' understood that he was merely to be window dressing. Hubbard was still in control while operating through new additional facades, consisting of the mysterious WDC and Franks. These fronts were designed to protect Hubbard from criminal prosecution that had already consumed his previous façade, consisting of his wife and her G.O. clique.

Hubbard had not counted on Bill Franks and the mission holders' backlash reaction against what he [Bill Franks] considered 'G.O. type abuses'.

Franks naively believed that Hubbard had genuinely stepped down, leaving him in the top spot. Bill's reform efforts were constantly getting derailed by these 'kids' however (secretly implementing Hubbard's intent), so he feared that they would go on to commit crimes similar to the G.O bunch...

So the mission holders were rebelling, but had no idea that they were rebelling against Hubbard, but Hubbard knew, and reacted fiercely.


__________​


As for Marty's recent response to Vinaire, off hand, I've no explanation for it.


Perhaps this will bring back memories of the good old days of the early 1990s when all of "Ron's kids" were pals and getting along just fine:


seastrip-png.187361

Scientology's leadership sing 'We Stand Tall'.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
It's veering uncomfortably close to the truth: that Hubbard was willing to lie to Scientologists, not just about himself, but also about auditing tech; and that Hubbard had a hidden agenda which was the opposite of his advertised "Humanitarian aims."

The real objective of auditing was to produce a hypnotic, compliant state in the PC, so that the PC could be enslaved to Hubbard. This is one reason why there was no real push for staff and execs to get auditing, and was the major screaming outpoint about Scientology: "if auditing makes you more able, why aren't staff audited more?"
 

Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
It's veering uncomfortably close to the truth: that Hubbard was willing to lie to Scientologists, not just about himself, but also about auditing tech; and that Hubbard had a hidden agenda which was the opposite of his advertised "Humanitarian aims."

Your conclusions are correct and I agree with you but not entirely. It's a matter of perspective. Let me explain.

Hubbard was a teacher and searcher of knowledge. That's what I say and others may disagree. However, that Hubbard was true and honest would have become clear if one just cared to understand what he wrote for Scientologists. There are umpteen writings in which he stressed that you should look for yourself whether or not it's true for you. There is the code of honour, a brilliant writing. The Bolivar HCOPL should have told you between others that Hubbard isn't a monk and the world isn't populated by sweet aunties.

Then your favourite, the fair game policy should really have opened your eyes that you are dealing with a man who is willing to go the extra mile if you decide to screw with him.

Even if Hubbard did write and say opposing things with his views constantly evolving, changing and often contradicting themselves, who is to say that he was lying when he wrote it?

Now about the ARXC causes blows. Isn't it remarkable that Hubbard knew this fact but nobody else, not even the smartest guys in Scientology could figure out the same by themselves? Isn't it generous, fair and honest of Hubbard that he did reveal it to his close lieutenants?

To perhaps better understand Hubbards perspective one has to take into account that he has been ferocly attacked from the very beginning (Board of Medical Examiners instituted proceedings against the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation in Elizabeth in the early 50's). Also too often let down by his collaborators.

Another example? Let's take now Gary Armstrong. LRH once more was so very trusting that he let Gary have ALL his personal details, records never seen in public for a LRH biography. LRH trusted that it's going to be done like a friend would do it for him. But what did Gary Armstrong instead do? He grabbed the box of docs and betrayed the trust! Now let me also point out that I am okey that Gary nicked the docs. However from LRH perspective it's a complete betrayal.

Now back to what causes "blows".
Folks unable to figure something out for themselves which Hubbard has been able to clearly identify, have lost their credibility to place themselves above him intellectually.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
..

The real objective of auditing was to produce a hypnotic, compliant state in the PC, so that the PC could be enslaved to Hubbard. This is one reason why there was no real push for staff and execs to get auditing, and was the major screaming outpoint about Scientology: "if auditing makes you more able, why aren't staff audited more?"

This is perhaps one of the greatest secrets to both the "wog world" (media, et al) AND to Scientologists alike.

The simple fact that if auditing makes one TOTAL CAUSE, why don't staff members and lifelong Sea Org members promptly get audited to OT VIII?

It is not unusual at all for a Sea Org member, who has contributed 10-20 years to a slavish & unforgiving schedule, to not even have made it to OT III. Many not even to Clear (see Chris Shelton's recent video about how he himself spend 17 years in the SO and didn't make it to Clear). Well he "made it" to Clear but he was later told that he wasn't Clear and he had to start the grade chart over again. He observed that after nearly two decades, he was in fact LOWER on the grade chart than when he joined the SO. LOL.

Being a trained C/S and Qual staff member, I once was put in charge of a project to give TIP (Technical Individual Programs) to all Sea Org staff in of the cult's premiere organizations. I actually interviewed them individually on the meter and went through their PC folders. This was, without exaggeration, a complete and unmitigated nightmare. They typically had up to a dozen incomplete actions, plus dozens of more randomly interjected "actions" (e.g. "Hey, everyone is to immediately do the Robotism Rundown and find your out-ethics "ITEM" on why you are a Robot").

They were messed up at so many levels of problems, physical problems, post problems, relationship problems, screwed up ethics/justice actions, audited over things they dare not say or even think.....well, you get the idea. Just imagine auditing someone in a concentration camp and asking them if they have any out-ruds on the Nazi's who kidnapped and enslaved them. And note their VGIs and origination "I don't have any charge on that!" when you get a "false read" on the murder of their entire family the day before in the gas chamber.

Whoa, how did I get on a Nazi rant? LOL. (Reminder to self: STFU please and continue making your point if you can remember it, lol)

Back to the point. . .

The LAST thing a staff member gets is auditing up to OT VIII.

The VERY LAST thing!

When a staff member is screwing up, being "effect" and posting crap stats, the handling is NOT to audit them. That is considered to be "rewarding a downstat" and forbidden. Think about that. The Scientologists do not even try to hide the fact that they don't think auditing works! LOL.

What the staff member DOES get, however, is:


  • Ethics actions
  • Hatting on Hubbard's scripture to correct their "effect" existence.
  • Threats
  • Face Ripping
  • Savage Justice actions
  • Humiliation in front of other staff/public
  • Lower Conditions
  • Com Evs
  • Non Enturbulation Orders
  • Psychological terrorism
  • RPF
  • RPF's RPF
  • Threats of "losing their eternity"
  • Threats of "being disconnected" from all family and friends.


Scientologists do NOT really believe that auditing makes a being "total cause". They just don't. It's a myth that Scientologists think that.

If you think I am exaggerating, just find ONE Scientologist who will speak to you honestly. Ask them if they or anyone they know ever achieved "Total Cause Over Life".

What's that you say, Scientologists can't speak honestly? LOL. Exactly.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Your conclusions are correct and I agree with you but not entirely. It's a matter of perspective. Let me explain.

Hubbard was a teacher and searcher of knowledge. That's what I say and others may disagree. However, that Hubbard was true and honest would have become clear if one just cared to understand what he wrote for Scientologists. There are umpteen writings in which he stressed that you should look for yourself whether or not it's true for you. There is the code of honour, a brilliant writing. The Bolivar HCOPL should have told you between others that Hubbard isn't a monk and the world isn't populated by sweet aunties.

Then your favourite, the fair game policy should really have opened your eyes that you are dealing with a man who is willing to go the extra mile if you decide to screw with him.

Even if Hubbard did write and say opposing things with his views constantly evolving, changing and often contradicting themselves, who is to say that he was lying when he wrote it?

Now about the ARXC causes blows. Isn't it remarkable that Hubbard knew this fact but nobody else, not even the smartest guys in Scientology could figure out the same by themselves? Isn't it generous, fair and honest of Hubbard that he did reveal it to his close lieutenants?

To perhaps better understand Hubbards perspective one has to take into account that he has been ferocly attacked from the very beginning (Board of Medical Examiners instituted proceedings against the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation in Elizabeth in the early 50's). Also too often let down by his collaborators.

Another example? Let's take now Gary Armstrong. LRH once more was so very trusting that he let Gary have ALL his personal details, records never seen in public for a LRH biography. LRH trusted that it's going to be done like a friend would do it for him. But what did Gary Armstrong instead do? He grabbed the box of docs and betrayed the trust! Now let me also point out that I am okey that Gary nicked the docs. However from LRH perspective it's a complete betrayal.

Now back to what causes "blows".
Folks unable to figure something out for themselves which Hubbard has been able to clearly identify, have lost their credibility to place themselves above him intellectually.


:hysterical:

OMG! Truly Terrible Trolling. Was someone supposed to get enturbulated? LOLOL

If your senior is currently busy on other cycles, I can write a cramming order for you. Well, let's get you at least started with a clay demo of THE SENIOR POLICY OF A TROLL:

"A Scientology troll must always try to cloak themselves in some kind of acceptable beingness, so that people don't instantly realize they are being trolled."

If there is some way to get ESMB to give you a new ID, you should seriously consider starting over.

Cloaking, my dear troll, cloaking! That's the key to salvaging this sector of the internet! Cloak and we all will win!
 

Terril park

Sponsor
just find ONE Scientologist who will speak to you honestly. Ask them if they or anyone they know ever achieved "Total Cause Over Life".

What's that you say, Scientologists can't speak honestly? LOL. Exactly.

"Total cause over life" is an absolute. Scientologists generally
are instructed that absolutes are unobtainable. This particular absolute
is self evidently unobtainable.

" More cause over life" is obtainable.
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
"...we must have command of their values... the first loyalty [to himself] is destroyed... by demonstrating errors in him... Degradation and conquest are companions... degradation can be accomplished... by consistent and continual defamation. Defamation is the best and foremost weapon of Psycho-politics on the broad field."

L. Ron Hubbard, 1955, from his "Russian" Brainwashing Manual.
Veda



Sick fuckin shit :angry: and Hubbard used it to dominate and control and make himself rich
in the process.

When I see Hubbard reffered to as "Ron" makes me wanta puke my lunch :puke:
Elronius of Marcabia

Veda


Exactly, Veda. The fact that Hubbard knowingly and intentionally further abused those who suffered under his regime and further insulted and abused them by accusing them of crimes and wrongdoing when he actually knew they left due to genuine upsets over genuine mistreatment, and the fact he incorporated this bullshit into so much of the tek says it all

JustSheila

Hubbard had a master plan. He knew what he was doing.

Per his own definition of the word, "brainwashing," he forwarded ideas and implemented methods that would result in brainwashing - brainwashing according to his own definition, and according to his own blueprint.

Veda

The real objective of auditing was to produce a hypnotic, compliant state in the PC, so that the PC could be enslaved to Hubbard. This is one reason why there was no real push for staff and execs to get auditing, and was the major screaming outpoint about Scientology: "if auditing makes you more able, why aren't staff audited more?"


Enthetan


What the staff member DOES get, however, is:



  • Ethics actions
  • Hatting on Hubbard's scripture to correct their "effect" existence.
  • Threats
  • Face Ripping
  • Savage Justice actions
  • Humiliation in front of other staff/public
  • Lower Conditions
  • Com Evs
  • Non Enturbulation Orders
  • Psychological terrorism
  • RPF
  • RPF's RPF
  • Threats of "losing their eternity"
  • Threats of "being disconnected" from all family and friends.
HelluvaHoax!



THE SENIOR POLICY OF A TROLL:

"A Scientology troll must always try to cloak themselves in some kind of acceptable beingness, so that people don't instantly realize they are being trolled."
HelluvaHoax!



Have I died and gone to heaven ? :coolwink: If this is a dream don't wake me !:thumbsup:

I have fought uphill for so long with so many to get across a point that they often CANNOT accept - Hubbard LIED constantly to ALL of us about EVERYTHING!!!

Put that in your big book !!!!IT was always a con !!! He was a pathological liar who manipulated people and always HID his lies with policies and orders designed to conceal the truth ! And if you look at the rhetorical methods he used in constructing his insane cult doctrine they are ones you only use to confuse , misdirect and obfuscate IF YOU ARE LYING !!!:clap:

AND if you broaden your attention and mind to compare cult and totalitarian leaders it becomes quite clear that when theses nutjobs are both extremely narcissistic and sociopathic ( doubling down on insanity as Hubbard did - well really he was an entirely different order of magnitude ) they are malignant narcissists or to be even more specific for cult leaders and dictators traumatic narcissists ( see the book Traumatic Narcissism: Relational Systems of Subjugation by Doctor and cult survivor Daniel Shaw LCSW, is a psychoanalyst in private practice in New York City , NY. He is also faculty, supervisor and training analyst at the National Institute for the Psychotherapies, in NYC) .

reference :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG-Jk1kDrrk

Regarding cult leaders, plainly NONE of these guys ( and women equal rights , equal rights ) ever find miracles or divine enlightenment - but they do share psychopathology and exhibit extreme narcissism and sociopathic behavior and pathological lying and megalomania and self aggrandizement and objectify others and cheat on and discard lovers and spouses as if they are worthless and do the same with followers and pretend to have knowledge and accomplishments far above what they truly do and...is any of this feeling familiar yet, or should I go on ?

Look Hubbard lied we buyed and the tech NEVER worked no matter how hard we tried !!!
Hubbard enslaved we complied , when you still follow him your freedom has died it cannot be denied !!!

This thread is so close to my heart - do not let some A hole derail it !!!

And Veda , are we becoming the same person ?

That is it !!
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Veda




Elronius of Marcabia


Veda




JustSheila



Veda




Enthetan



HelluvaHoax!




HelluvaHoax!



Have I died and gone to heaven ? :coolwink: If this is a dream don't wake me !:thumbsup:

I have fought uphill for so long with so many to get across a point that they often CANNOT accept - Hubbard LIED constantly to ALL of us about EVERYTHING!!!

Put that in your big book !!!!IT was always a con !!! He was a pathological liar who manipulated people and always HID his lies with policies and orders designed to conceal the truth ! And if you look at the rhetorical methods he used in constructing his insane cult doctrine they are ones you only use to confuse , misdirect and obfuscate IF YOU ARE LYING !!!:clap:

AND if you broaden your attention and mind to compare cult and totalitarian leaders it becomes quite clear that when theses nutjobs are both extremely narcissistic and sociopathic ( doubling down on insanity as Hubbard did - well really he was an entirely different order of magnitude ) they are malignant narcissists or to be even more specific for cult leaders and dictators traumatic narcissists ( see the book Traumatic Narcissism: Relational Systems of Subjugation by Doctor and cult survivor Daniel Shaw LCSW, is a psychoanalyst in private practice in New York City , NY. He is also faculty, supervisor and training analyst at the National Institute for the Psychotherapies, in NYC) .

Regarding cult leaders, plainly NONE of these guys ( and women equal rights , equal rights ) ever find miracles or divine enlightenment - but they do share psychopathology and exhibit extreme narcissism and sociopathic behavior and pathological lying and megalomania and self aggrandizement and objectify others and cheat on and discard lovers and spouses as if they are worthless and do the same with followers and pretend to have knowledge and accomplishments far above what they truly do and...is any of this feeling familiar yet, or should I go on ?

Look Hubbard lied we buyed and the tech NEVER worked no matter how hard we tried !!!
Hubbard enslaved we complied , when you still follow him your freedom has died it cannot be denied !!!

This thread is so close to my heart - do not let some A hole derail it !!!

And Veda , are we becoming the same person ?

That is it !!


Very few people here believe that hubbard was anything but a complete lunatic and a lying con man who got lucky.

You haven't been fighting uphill here (on that point) at all.




:confused2:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
"Total cause over life" is an absolute. Scientologists generally
are instructed that absolutes are unobtainable.
This particular absolute
is self evidently unobtainable.

" More cause over life" is obtainable.


So, you are saying that the EP of "Total Cause Over Life" is contradicted by another Hubbard "datum"? Wow!

Would that be an example of the Hubbard Law of Commotion? LOL.

I think that, for Scientologists, a better EP than your proposed "More Cause Over Life" would be:

More Cause Over Not Reaching any
of the Stated Grade Chart Abilities and yet
Feeling All FN[SUP]ey[/SUP] anyways because
Maybe you got those EPs in
the Theta Universe and
Just Don't Know About it Yet.
 

hummingbird

Patron with Honors
About staff getting audited (or not)...

I remember back when I was on staff at a Mission/Class IV Org. The mindset for our little psychotic 3D (glarg, hate that term) was that staff were an elite, and already operated at OT levels anyway... so if you needed *processing* to get there, you were a wuss. But, we needed your money anyway.
 

SPsince83

Gold Meritorious Patron
About staff getting audited (or not)...

I remember back when I was on staff at a Mission/Class IV Org. The mindset for our little psychotic 3D (glarg, hate that term) was that staff were an elite, and already operated at OT levels anyway... so if you needed *processing* to get there, you were a wuss. But, we needed your money anyway.

No case on post, bitches!!!!!!!!! All Staff Members are ot mcmlkvii by virtue of staff status 2:whistling:
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
UGHHHH !!!!! I am having flashbacks to the " No case on post crowd ! "

They would say you can set aside your case by will alone !!! So I would say " then why don't we just make big signs that say NO CASE ON POST and put them everywhere and skip all the courses and auditing !!! "

I would say" I cannot magically make all my problems disappear by some super discipline - that is pure nonsense" ! I spent a LOT of time in ethics ! I was a VERY defiant Scientologist ! A real ethics case ! I was called the "most pessimistic Scientologist " as I often questioned bold claims and pointed out contradictions and observed facts that did not fit Hubbard's doctrine - lots of trips to write up my OWs er control via confession and do conditions er reframe reality and see the word clearer er thought reformer .:duh::duh::biggrin:
 

Veda

Sponsor
lrh_dir.jpg

Your conclusions are correct and I agree with you but not entirely. It's a matter of perspective. Let me explain.

Hubbard was a teacher and searcher of knowledge. That's what I say and others may disagree. However, that Hubbard was true and honest would have become clear if one just cared to understand what he wrote for Scientologists. There are umpteen

You mean like "This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last umpteen trillion years." ???

writings in which he stressed that you should look for yourself whether or not it's true for you.

That's one of the things that deceived and brainwashed Scientologists make sure to emphasize. Has anyone counted the number of plastic signs outside Scientology Orgs that proclaim: "Think for yourself! Scientology!" ???

There seem to be a bunch of them.

There is the code of honour, a brilliant writing.

Another application of "tell them to think for themselves" first, gain their trust (use the word "Honor"), so they won't suspect that someone is trying to mess with their minds, then zap them.

The Bolivar HCOPL should have told you between others that Hubbard isn't a monk and the world isn't populated by sweet aunties.

It tells most people who read it that Hubbard was conspiracy obsessed, criminally insane, paranoid.

Then your favourite, the fair game policy should really have opened your eyes that you are dealing with a man who is willing to go the extra mile if you decide to screw with him.

See above, but add sadist.

Even if Hubbard did write and say opposing things with his views constantly evolving, changing and often contradicting themselves, who is to say that he was lying when he wrote it?

In other words, can I prove, for example, that Hubbard was lying when he told Scientologists that he was crippled and blinded in combat, "abandoned by family and friends as a hopeless cripple," and healed himself with Dianetics?

Can I prove that Hubbard was lying to Scientologists when he told them that he practically single handedly repelled the invading Japanese from the island of Java, thereby saving Australia from a Japanese takeover?

Can I prove that Hubbard was lying when he told Scientologists that his second wife was a Russian spy named Komkovadamanov?

Or can I prove that Hubbard was lying when he told Scientologists that he was a nuclear physicist, and had been repeatedly ordered by the United States Navy to join the Manhattan Project and, when he refused due to his love for humanity, he was sent repeatedly into combat theaters?

Mmmmm... No I can't. Maybe he really did believe these things, in which case he was insane. Doesn't really help your argument much.:eyeroll:

Now about the ARXC causes blows. Isn't it remarkable that Hubbard knew this fact but nobody else, not even the smartest guys in Scientology could figure out the same by themselves? Isn't it generous, fair and honest of Hubbard that he did reveal it to his close lieutenants?

The revelation occurred late at night or early in the morning. How much rum Hubbard had ingested is undetermined. It may have been a "loose lipped" moment. Hubbard shared one of his lies, as an admitted lie, with a couple of insiders who were bound to secrecy. Not exactly cause for nomination for a Nobel Peace Prize.

To perhaps better understand Hubbards perspective one has to take into account that he has been ferocly attacked from the very beginning (Board of Medical Examiners instituted proceedings against the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation in Elizabeth in the early 50's).

You seem to be using a variation of Latin. Did you mean "Ferociously?

It was the New Jersey Board of Medical Examiners and the proceedings were dropped once he took his operation to Kansas.

Also too often let down by his collaborators.

"Let down"? You mean they disagreed with him about something.

Another example? Let's take now Gary Armstrong. LRH once more was so very trusting that he let Gary have ALL his personal details, records never seen in public for a LRH biography. LRH trusted that it's going to be done like a friend would do it for him. But what did Gary Armstrong instead do? He grabbed the box of docs and betrayed the trust! Now let me also point out that I am okey that Gary nicked the docs. However from LRH perspective it's a complete betrayal.

The docs were not "nicked." That's a Scientology Inc. line. The docs were, quite legally, given to Omar Garrison who was, then, Hubbard's authorized biographer. Garrison, who had fallen under Scientology's influence and written some PR books for it, finally couldn't stand it anymore, and ended up testifying on Gerry Armstrong's behalf at Church of Scientology vs. Gerry Armstrong. And, yes, I suppose it's natural for a con man to feel betrayed if he lets another in on the con, and that other then spills the beans.

Now back to what causes "blows".
Folks unable to figure something out for themselves which Hubbard has been able to clearly identify, have lost their credibility to place themselves above him intellectually.

I don't think anyone is placing himself above anyone intellectually.

It's a matter of accurately describing a secretive and manipulative and abusive doctrine, its history, and its activities, in the direction of greater understanding and helping people.
 
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mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Balthasar I suggest you study malignant and traumatic narcissists - they make bold claims that are lies and habitually hide the evidence they are lies as Hubbard did personally and in his policies and orders continuously for the entire time he was involved in Dianetics and Scientology . Police have focused on this at it proves pathological liars KNOW they are lying as they act to hide things that would be perfectly acceptable socially IF TRUE . This is essential to prosecuting con men and Hubbbard lied the entire time as evidenced by hundreds of actions to make his false claims never face scrutiny .

I could write several books on this where issues like having an espionage agency with courses in lying and B and E is needed by a supposed demigod with magic psychic powers . Or how money and stats are hidden so no one knows what Hubbard was doing - why always hide all that if you are not running a con backed by mountains of lies ? He did not just not say things - he went to tremendous effort to habitually and constantly hide them . Only a liar does that . It is simple logic .
 

guanoloco

As-Wased

Very few people here believe that hubbard was anything but a complete lunatic and a lying con man who got lucky.

You haven't been fighting uphill here (on that point) at all.




:confused2:

Wait a minute...Ron lied?

Are you telling me all that Van Allen belt and trains on Venus stuff is an alter-is...as in wrong time, place, form and event?
 

Northern Shewolf

Patron Meritorious
The real objective of auditing was to produce a hypnotic, compliant state in the PC, so that the PC could be enslaved to Hubbard. This is one reason why there was no real push for staff and execs to get auditing, and was the major screaming outpoint about Scientology: "if auditing makes you more able, why aren't staff audited more?"

Probably because all SO drones would have that thingy you call, IIRC, as a slamming needle:unsure:....
 
It's veering uncomfortably close to the truth: that Hubbard was willing to lie to Scientologists, not just about himself, but also about auditing tech; and that Hubbard had a hidden agenda which was the opposite of his advertised "Humanitarian aims."

It makes sense to me. All these theories about "being a victim" leaving because of O/W, the motivator theory, the Tone scale, twisting the meaning of words like "critical", pretending "sympathy" is low on the tone scale, etc. all these things are the cobble stones of the road to total indoctrination so that you think you are making your own choices while you have become a Rondroid and a happy slave giving all your energy and money to the guy who created the trap. These ideas allow abusing people without ever questioning. If some one gets raped "she pulled it in". The system makes you feel that you have to be always responsible but the organisation has no liability and no accountability. I'm glad I am out :biggrin:
 

Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
//snipped///


In other words, can I prove, for example, that Hubbard was lying when he told Scientologists that he was crippled and blinded in combat, "abandoned by family and friends as a hopeless cripple," and healed himself with Dianetics?

Can I prove that Hubbard was lying to Scientologists when he told them that he practically single handedly repelled the invading Japanese from the island of Java, thereby saving Australia from a Japanese takeover?

Can I prove that Hubbard was lying when he told Scientologists that his second wife was a Russian spy named Komkovadamanov?

Or can I prove that Hubbard was lying when he told Scientologists that he was a nuclear physicist, and had been repeatedly ordered by the United States Navy to join the Manhattan Project and, when he refused due to his love for humanity, he was sent repeatedly into combat theaters?

Mmmmm... No I can't. Maybe he really did believe these things, in which case he was insane. Doesn't really help your argument much.:eyeroll:

///snipped///

Yes he lied here. I give you that. And yes, you have proven it, many times over and over. It's an established fact.

Hubbard had flaws like any other human being.
 
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