L Ron Hubbard's Origins. Black Magick and Aleistar Crowley

Innominate Dude

No Longer Around
I have been studying trauma and how easy it is to hypnotize people when they are traumatized.

Details please!

Do you mean study as in you are conducting an empirical inquiry, gathering data and seeing how best to quantify it, constructing rival hypotheses that derive from the observational data acquired? Have you been hanging out in emergency rooms, do you mean???

Or do you mean study in that you've been studying the texts of peer reviewed literature and reputable scholars in the area?

I love hearing someone doing actual STUDY of this topic rather than the usual using the mere word "hypnosis" as some sort of black sack they can rumage around in and pull out any mental construct they like out of it and it is all just as good as actual empirical study or reputable scholarly study. Man! The nerve of people who do that! Often time they use the word "hypnosis" to mean whatever magical effect on thinking they'd like to suppose exists and invoking the word alone proves their ideas to the uneducated in the topic. The general ignorance the public has in this area seems to give some people license to use mere utterance of the word as a magic spell to prove whatever they want.

So details please! I'm delighted to hear of some serious study going on here. Especially as it concerns trauma, as one of the better current views about hypnosis is that trauma distracts people too much from entering into various highly focused states associated with hypnosis, which usually requires an ability to focus the mind WITHOUT distraction that trauma provides. Your study results seem to stand to overturn a lot of thinking, then, and I hope you pass peer review with your contrarian insights of this STUDY you are doing.



 

Innominate Dude

No Longer Around

Huh?





Huh?


Dennis Erlich and Mr. Lerma were some of the original big guns on a newsgroup forum called alt.religion.scientology which started being relevant right around 20 years ago. In keeping with the "anarchist lunatic terrorist" ethos of the "alt." newsgroup tier it was on, it quickly turned into an undisciplined arena for spewing juvenile nonsense, far out conspiracy theories, and generally degenerated into more of a school yard taunting exhibition that a real newsgroup. The few educated people in the arena of debate, such as librarian Diane Richardson at a psychiatric reference library, were generally the butt of hate and spewing of general venom for the psychological satisfaction of the reading public and posters alike, but for no real good reason other than that. If every last post on a.r.s. disappeared down the memory hole, nothing of value was lost. Unfortunately it was ALSO an arena that provided much conditioning, much positive feedback and sense of status, to Mr. Lerma, which I believe seriously degraded his general critical faculties and led him into spinning ever wilder scenarios about Hubbard and Scientology.

Serious thinkers and commentators seldom stayed long on a.r.s. and any serious journalist tried hard to stay off it publicly, merely reading it to find leads to better sources, because it was an embarrassment as any kind of assembly of thinking people. Occasionally things would happen like the death of Lisa McPherson or significant legal developments in the unfortunately too sloppy plans of legend in his own mind Robert Minton, etc., would reinvigorate it with some sort of purpose and hope of becoming an arena of serious debate - maybe. It largely lost that whenever no strong stimulus from the outside was focusing discussion on something serious, so instead a bunch of "clambaking" became the rule. General venom spewing and taunting rather than mature discussion, in short. Accusing anyone not falling into lock step agreement with a derisive taunt about Scientology would lead to such poster being accused of being OSA staff trying to fool a.r.s., as one popular form of mindless "clambaking". Actually the OSA liked this a lot and routinely posted a roster of "who is OSA on a.r.s." as a feeble distraction attempt. Eventually those hard core clam bakers decided to commune with their own navel at a place an otherwise serious seeming critic of Scientology set up for them to do their soooo hilarious and insightful cloambaking in, Operation Clambake here:

http://www.xenu.net/

It actually has some good material away from the discussion forums, like the complete texts of very good books of relevance, even if its discussion forums are basically a load of toss day in and day out just as a.r.s. had almost always been.


Anyway, back to the a.r.s clambaking stuff that involves Erlich, Lerma, and others. Erlich rather early on in the history of a.r.s. settled some claims he had against the Church of Scientology in exchange for, among things, a condo in Palm Springs, and presumably some money to pay the common assessment fees with. Nice place in terms of curb appeal I'd say. Mr. Lerma, in contrast, prefers the psychic rewards of being a critic of Scientology and in reaching further and further into far out schemes for explaining a basically familiar hustle that merely added a sci-fi angle under Hubbard's working of it. (The whole Egyptian gnostic part was already being worked over by folks in San Jose who teach "cosmic consciousness" via the Rosicrucian method, and the Theosophists were already handling another aspect of the market that wanted to be hustled in this area, and Crowley was merely a more notorious vendor of various Western influenced occultism that already had scads of operators working that angle, so really all Hubbard added to the hustle was BIG VISION and money hunger and of course the sci-fi angle. He doesn't take a lot of cryptic decoding to figure out really, though some enjoy that as a sport it seems.)

Lerma has, or had, vague communications with Pat Broeker, who was the person designated in a writing (purportedly by LRH) as the senior officer in the Sea Org upon LRH's passing, which Miscavige has never had the benefit of. Broeker also had a Ferrari allegedly "given" him by Hubbard, but that is dubious. LRH was well known to have the attitude "no one but me gets rich off this!!!" and I doubt he voluntarily gave Broeker such an expensive car. Broeker was for many years LRH's bagman to pick up money in secret Swiss or Luxemborg banks accounts and conduct it to Hubbard so he could pay whatever living expenses he needed without being traceable in doing so. In later years filtering this money through Nevada casinos with a lose factor involved became a standard laundering method and allowed for generous skimming I'm sure. Whether Broeker dipped into the till, such as by false reporting how much money he was losing in the process of laundering it through Nevada casinos in the process of filtering it to Hubbard, or whether Hubbard truly gave him a gift of a Ferrari, well . . . everyone will believe what they like anyhow on that point.

Allegedly Broeker was ousted by Miscavige by superior gamesmanship, or so the shore story goes. The shore story is that Broeker was exposed to IRS scrutiny or prosecution as being the bagman for Hubbard. This is foolish twaddle as Miscavige was just as elbow deep in the money laundering in Nevada casinos that fed Hubbard his living money as Broeker was, so the idea that Broeker was vulnerable for having a history of doing this compared to Miscavige is a pretty flimsy element of that shore story. Chances are Lerma knows something truer about this, that basically Broeker liked the quiet life with funds and a Ferrari to keep him amused so he just cut a deal with Miscavige to let DM be the lightening rod and the day by day shot caller. Anyone remember the Sopranos and how Uncle Junior became the nominal Boss of the family??? Same deal I'd suspect, but you won't hear that from the people who don't like speculation of that sort because it penetrates the shore story too well.


Anyhow, Mr. Lerma decided to indulge himself in a little silly "clambaking" with me in this thread by implying I'm OSA. I'm simply falling into the spirit of things and clambaking him right back. It's just old, er, "friends" (?) doing some "breaking balls" as they say on the Sopranos. No need to get puzzled by it.


 

Innominate Dude

No Longer Around
Innominate Dude I think your "suggestibility" is analogous to hypnosis in this context as defined as "Hypnosis The Art of Persuasion"
By Dr. Anthony Taylor, i found by random search on Google!
http://nlpsecret.blogspot.se/2010/03/mind-control-hypnosis-art-of-persuasion.html

I am delighted that you took the effort to look up a resource on this topic.

I must express dismay, though, that you settled on one that openly announces an affiliation with "NLP". This stands for neuro-linguistic processing, which is a notorious pseudo-science that has the camouflage of an actual university academic teaching it, as its genesis. Stay away from NLP if you want to read credible authors on studies of suggestibility, trance states, and topics that touch on "hypnosis".
 

Peter Soderqvist

Patron with Honors
you missed my point!
when they say;"I have been studying trauma and how easy it is to hypnotize people when they are traumatized."
i have "traumatized people are more suggestible" in mind!
 

Innominate Dude

No Longer Around
you missed my point!
when they say;"I have been studying trauma and how easy it is to hypnotize people when they are traumatized."
i have "traumatized people are more suggestible" in mind!

I've never encountered that as a factor in the literature covering this topic. Can you give me a title or other pointer to where I can find empirical work that has been done in this area? Most suggestibility factors I come across don't go straight to trauma as a factor in suggestibility, so I'd love a pointer.
 

Peter Soderqvist

Patron with Honors
Wikipedia Stockholm syndrome
One commonly used hypothesis to explain the effect of Stockholm syndrome is based on Freudian theory. It suggests that the bonding is the individual's response to trauma in becoming a victim. Identifying with the aggressor is one way that the ego defends itself. When a victim believes the same values as the aggressor, they cease to be a threat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
 

Innominate Dude

No Longer Around

Wikipedia Stockholm syndrome

One commonly used hypothesis to explain the effect of Stockholm syndrome is based on Freudian theory. It suggests that the bonding is the individual's response to trauma in becoming a victim. Identifying with the aggressor is one way that the ego defends itself. When a victim believes the same values as the aggressor, they cease to be a threat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Wikipedia, a reference source any passing person can edit, is at least some kind of reference I guess. I have trouble citing to Freud as a serious authority in this day and age, though I understand a lay public might still think he is an impressive authority to quote. People who write like a novelist, as Freud apologized for doing, haven't thought through their position very clearly, and in time it showed.

Stockholm Syndrome, and the related phenomena of the battered spouse who identifies with her attacker and rejects help of intervenors, or even accusses them of improper interference, is
not something clearly related to the idea of suggestibility. It is no necessary element that the hostage taker or chronic batterer tried to suggest ANYTHING at all to the victim who later takes the side of the person victimizing them. Instead these activities are known to occur rather spontaneously, without the hostage taker or chronic batterer even remotely addressing the prospect of how the incident should be viewed and treated later on. Where there really isn't a suggestion at all sometimes, and it isn't in any way critical to these related phenomena that there was anything vaguely resembling a suggestion, why talk of suggestibility?

Please note that the article didn't discuss suggestibility as a psychological topic. It said that a THEORY suggests something, not that a hostage taker or chronic battered engaged in any suggestion of anything at all. This is just the sort of example I mean when I say people like to toss stuff out as if it can plausibilize any magical mental result they want to suppose.


 

Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
That is not an example of hypnotism. That is advertising 101. They show happy people smiling and loving life while enjoying their product for reasons I should not have to explain. As for drug companies, the fact that they minimize the side effect warnings as much as possible is not an indication of hypnotism, it is simply the least they need to do to remain compliant with FTC or FDA regulation. If they didn't have to include warnings in their commercials, they wouldn't.

Calling out drug companies on a perceived hypnosis conspiracy for showing happy people in their advertisements is deceptively narrow. You can apply what you've claimed to almost any advertisement. Whether they are trying to sell you insurance, shoes, cars, cheeseburgers or whatever, you will see happy people smiling and loving what they are being paid to love.

Jest3R - I am beginning to smell a little OSA bot on the board. While I love a healthy debate - I also have Oat Tea abilities to sniff out OSA bots diverting the truth about Scientology and L Ron Hubbard to take the attention away from the cold hard facts.

I think you have an MU so I can help you clear it! :wink2:

Hypnotism:http://www.transformationhypnosis.com/ I am not going to spoon feed the data - if you have interest - study up on it. If you are a Scientologist working for OSA - it is not going to match what Tubbs told you about Hypnosis so except some cognitive dissonance. :yes:

Here is a little data on hypnosis used in cults: (there is TONS of info available on the net)

The process of cult and mass therapy indoctrination may involve repeated inductions of trance-like states of consciousness similar to hypnosis. (GET UP THE BRIDGE, LRH IS SOURCE, NO VERBAL DATA, KSW, All critics of Scientology are hiding crimes etc)

Environmental (milieu) control, social manipulation, isolation and the use of prescribed consciousness-altering techniques (e.g. repetitive and/or continuous chanting, meditating, or praying) are some of the methods employed by cults to produce these altered states of awareness. Recent studies suggest that memories, emotions and even spiritual experiences can be manipulated while in hypnosis. Lack of informed consent and questionable concern for individual needs and wishes makes the use of these hypnotic techniques unethical.

Being subjected to repeated and prolonged hypnotic inductions can impair the convert's ability to make decisions and evaluate new information; moreover, the convert's altered awareness can "lock in," and become a conditioned personality response pattern. One result can be periodic episodes of unwanted trance experiences ("floating") that occur for months or even years after a cultist exits his/her group.

(Don't look at the internet - you can get sick and die if you read the story about XENU and his Body Thetans attached to you before you are ready - have spent $$$,$$$,$$$ and years going up a Bridge to nowhere) LOL

Here is some data about advertising and hypnotism:

http://www.adam-eason.com/2011/02/17/is-advertising-hypnosis-is-it-really-mass-hypnosis/
http://bizcovering.com/marketing-and-advertising/hypnosis-in-advertising/
http://www.marketinghypnotism.com/
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Use-of-Hypnosis-in-Advertising&id=4855552

I know you are new and have only a few posts - but this is the second thread (of mine) in 24 hours where you have posted disagreements with FACTS, not my opinions.

While you have a right to your opinion and I want you to have it - especially, if you were in the Cult of Scientology - but it is rather suspicious. Please do forgive me if I am sensative and wrong abou this. LOL

Perhaps tell us a little about yourself - were you in Scientology? Are you out of the cult but still have family in? What is your purpose here?

My purpose is to expose the truth about the cult of Scientology. I saw too many people harmed; bankruptcies in exchange for empty Idle Morgues and IAS billion dollar reserves. Here is the proof of the billions Scientology is sitting on:

All tax returns from 2011 - 2012 found here: http://scientologymoneyproject.com/...gy-western-united-states-irs-990-t-2009-2012/

Your turn ~ :biggrin: START!
 

Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
I've never encountered that as a factor in the literature covering this topic. Can you give me a title or other pointer to where I can find empirical work that has been done in this area? Most suggestibility factors I come across don't go straight to trauma as a factor in suggestibility, so I'd love a pointer.

Dude - you too have come to two of my threads and sprayed your doubt in the past 24 hours. I am not going to spoon feed you facts easily found on the internet. You can do your own research on any subject and most people do that before they go on threads disagreeing. This post made you look a bit suspicious of being an OSA bot.

If you are an OSA Bot - fuck you! I know Thursday is around the corner and you must have your stats up if you are to receive the blood money (some poor guy lost his home over to pay you the big bucks) - I hope you feel good about yourself taking money that was criminally extorted from victims under hypnosis...why else would people refinance their mortgage and incur huge masses of debt to give to Scientology. Why would people disconnect from loved ones because they are critical of a cult that has been proven to be A CULT?

If you are not OSA - my sincere apologies for suspecting you of being one. :blush: It's been done before! :yes:

Please - do tell us what your purpose is here and give us a little data about your involvement in the cult? Are you out, do you have family in?

Your homework is to study up on the Occult, Aleistar Crowley, L Ron Hubbard association with Jack Parson's and write up what you discovered. Then study up thoroughly on Hypnosis, Trauma and mind control and cults. Then do some clay demos on how these relate to Scientology and L Ron Hubbard and report back to us on what you discovered on mind control and how it relates to Scientology.

Here is some data for you to study - make sure you clear your words and do your clay demos:

Brainwashing Manual Parallels in Scientology', a.k.a. 'Revisiting the Textbook on Psycho-politics' http://www.xenu-directory.net/critics/ambry1.html

Contents

Examining the 'Brainwashing Manual' http://warrior.xenu.ca/Brainwashing-front.jpg with the purpose of better understanding Scientology 4

Introduction: A Brief Outline of Scientology Doctrine, Public and Confidential 6

"White Scientology" - The Battle Tactics Doctrine - Brainwashing Manual Tech - Scientology is Multi-layered - Exploiting the Positives: the Cheese in the Trap -

Background 9

Origin of the word "brainwashing." and of the "Russian Brainwashing Manual"
L. Ron Hubbard writing to Scientologists on the subject of the Brainwashing Manual
Departing briefly from the Manual: A look at private tactics later shared with insiders
A publicized statement
A private explanation
Hubbard vs. the "Asiatic Hordes"
Back to the Brainwashing Manual: Excerpts from Hubbard's third public statement on it
Kenneth Goff's 1956 version of the Manual
Scientology's "No-answer answers."

Excerpts from the Brainwashing Manual/Textbook on Psycho-politics 14

"Editorial Note": Hubbard. assuming the guise of the phantasmal "Charles Stickley"
"An Address by Beria": Hubbard, pretending to be Lavrenti Beria, chief of the Russian Secret Police
The Main Text of the Manual: Hubbard, masquerading as an arrogant Russain Brainwashing expert
"Pain-Drug-Hypnosis"

The Layers of The "Scientological Onion" http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105 17

Brainwashing Manual Parallels in Modern Scientology 19

Correspondences between the Brainwashing Manual and the Battle Tactics policy
On “Survival”
On Surviving the Atomic Bomb
On an individual Scientologist influencing leaders
Scientology is devious by design

Front Groups - Layer Zero of the “Scientological Onion” 20

“It is not necessary that the term ‘Communism’ [Scientology] be applied at first…”

Layer One - The publicized portion of Scientology 23

“White Scientology”
Scenario: (An application of “White Scientology”)
“By reason alone”
Auditing

Descending into Layer Two of the “Onion”: The “In-Organization” Strata 27

“…[Scientology] under the guise of [‘White Scientology’]…”
Exploitation of the process of abreaction
Playing one thing off another or “counter-playing”
“Loaded language”: the seemingly enlightened “counter-played” with the manipulative
Tone 4, “entheta,” “theta,” Suppressive Person
The Thought Limiting clichés of Scientology
Publicized, “In-organization” and Confidential Scientology “Ethics”
“…aligning the individual against the desire not to conform…”
Side effects of “critical thoughts”
Dominion over the loyalties of individuals

Layer Three of the “Onion”: The Confidential “Upper Levels” of the “Bridge to Total Freedom” 33

“…avoid the understanding of the layman…”
Highest of the “upper levels” must remain a mystery to the membership
Operating Thetan or O.T.
Aleister Crowley, Head of the O.T.O.
O.T. III, The “Wall of Fire” into which Hubbard “took the plunge” to save Mankind
Exploitation of the paranormal

Layer Four: “…a well trained individual who serves in complete obedience…”
The Sea Organization, the Rehabilitation Project Force, and the Five Card System 36


The Sea Organization: “Custodians of the O.T. Levels”
“…the only loyalty which should exist… is to the State [Scientology].”
Sea Org Ethics under Commodore Hubbard on the Flagship
“Refusal to let them sleep over many days…”
The Rehabilitation Project Force
“Filthy food, little sleep, nearly untenable quarters…”
“…the first loyalty [to himself]… is destroyed…”
“Degradation and conquest…”
The children’s and teenagers’ RPF
“A certain amount of fear…”
The RPF’s RPF
The Five Card “Team Share” System
“The technologies of psycho-politics…”

Layer Five: Confidential Scientology Policy and Tech for “handling” uncooperative outsiders 46

The Fair Game policy and “philosophy”
“…find or manufacture enough threat…”
“Direct the attention of the authorities…”
Scientology’s unscrupulous use of the legal system
“We will no longer put up with our religion being criticized…”
Discourage inquiry
Defamatory data on file; “Culling”: Searching “religious confessional” (auditing) files for embarrassing or intimidating items
Background: The Commodore’s Intelligence Network
The policy of covert attack and publicized PR “defense lines”
Scientology’s Multi-layered Public Relations tech
Scientology Intelligence tech
Data collecting, and Attack or “support” Intelligence
Creating incidents that reflect badly on others
“Data needed by Ops on each located who”
Attack or “support” Intelligence - The Covert Ops study course and checklist
“Persons in his vicinity to whom he is emotionally involved…”
Coerce them into signing prepared “retractions” or “confessions”
Plenty of bogus “documentation”
One justification for unscrupulous covert methods
Treatment of VIPs and celebrities
Goal of talking over “mental health” and “political guidance”
Full knowledge of Intelligence tech must be denied to the general membership
“Deception, chicanery, lying, manipulation and outright criminality”
“She over there, those pink legs sticking out, didn’t like me”
Scientologists believe in a planet-wide conspiracy against L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology
The Scientology Hierarchy

Layer Six: The Core of the “Scientological Onion” 69

“…virtually a pathological liar…egotism… lust for power, and vindictiveness…”
“We must be like the vine upon the tree…”
The elusive “1000 page” official L. Ron Hubbard biography
“It’s a trap not being able to prevaricate”
Conscience as an “impediment”
The L. Ron Hubbard Fan(atic) club

Epilogue 74

Freeing the Positives

Addendum 76

"Dr. Hubbard's" FBI letters written concurrent with the appearance of the Brainwashing Manual 77

L. Ron Hubbard assumes the identity of Dr. Hubbard Ph.D DD - Patriotic Concerned Citizen
Letter of 29 July 1955
From a letter dated 7 September

A further look at Scientology's Covert Intelligence Tech 79

"Categories of Data Needing Coding"
A glimpse at a covert operation, and of public strata "policy" used as a cover for applied covert policy
An example of public strata "policy" used as "cover" - this time used on Scientologists by Scientology
"Ops Planning"
What to "Vet" or delete from sensitive internal messages that may be scrutinized by outsiders

Bibliography 82

Notes 87

L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?, 2nd edition:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0942...654802-4263319

If you are not interested in doing that - fine. You will sit in confusion for the rest of your life! Good luck!

START! :biggrin:
 
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Veda

Sponsor
Dennis Erlich and Mr. Lerma were some of the original big guns on a newsgroup forum called alt.religion.scientology which started being relevant right around 20 years ago. In keeping with the "anarchist lunatic terrorist" ethos of the "alt." newsgroup tier it was on, it quickly turned into an undisciplined arena for spewing juvenile nonsense, far out conspiracy theories, and generally degenerated into more of a school yard taunting exhibition that a real newsgroup. The few educated people in the arena of debate, such as librarian Diane Richardson at a psychiatric reference library, were generally the butt of hate and spewing of general venom for the psychological satisfaction of the reading public and posters alike, but for no real good reason other than that.

-snip-

Diane Richardson as in "Diane Richardson brings up conclusive evidence that debunks the myth of mind control." ???

That's from the Bernie 'Another Look at Scientology' site:

http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/mc3.htm


Who's Bernie? "Bernie" a fake critic who attempts to discredit real critics. He's still active, back channel.

Below is a link to a $cientology disinformation site. But not as well disguised as what Bernie does.

Amongst other things, and like the Bernie site, it lies about, and continues to attack, Paulette Cooper. The first attempt at framing Cooper for making "bomb threats," in 1972 ('Operation Dynamite'), did succeed, resulting in her indictment by a Grand Jury. It came very close to destroying her life.

The second attempt to have her put in a mental institution or jail was interrupted by complications resulting from the unraveling of the Snow White Guardian's Office program later in 1976 - an unraveling that led to the FBI raids of July 1977.

An, yet, these scumbags write:

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www.scientologymyths.info/operation-freakout

It even links to the 'Bernie' site, another covert Scientology cult site, but a "perimeter defense" operation, pretending to be a "reasonable critic" site. Notice the link is at the end of the piece under "One of them is here." "Here" is in red.

How cozy.


scandalscientology.cov15.gif
 

Anonycat

Crusader

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Dennis Erlich and Mr. Lerma were some of the original big guns on a newsgroup forum called alt.religion.scientology which started being relevant right around 20 years ago. In keeping with the "anarchist lunatic terrorist" ethos of the "alt." newsgroup tier it was on, it quickly turned into an undisciplined arena for spewing juvenile nonsense, far out conspiracy theories, and generally degenerated into more of a school yard taunting exhibition that a real newsgroup. The few educated people in the arena of debate, such as librarian Diane Richardson at a psychiatric reference library, were generally the butt of hate and spewing of general venom for the psychological satisfaction of the reading public and posters alike, but for no real good reason other than that. If every last post on a.r.s. disappeared down the memory hole, nothing of value was lost. Unfortunately it was ALSO an arena that provided much conditioning, much positive feedback and sense of status, to Mr. Lerma, which I believe seriously degraded his general critical faculties and led him into spinning ever wilder scenarios about Hubbard and Scientology.

Serious thinkers and commentators seldom stayed long on a.r.s. and any serious journalist tried hard to stay off it publicly, merely reading it to find leads to better sources, because it was an embarrassment as any kind of assembly of thinking people. Occasionally things would happen like the death of Lisa McPherson or significant legal developments in the unfortunately too sloppy plans of legend in his own mind Robert Minton, etc., would reinvigorate it with some sort of purpose and hope of becoming an arena of serious debate - maybe. It largely lost that whenever no strong stimulus from the outside was focusing discussion on something serious, so instead a bunch of "clambaking" became the rule. General venom spewing and taunting rather than mature discussion, in short. Accusing anyone not falling into lock step agreement with a derisive taunt about Scientology would lead to such poster being accused of being OSA staff trying to fool a.r.s., as one popular form of mindless "clambaking". Actually the OSA liked this a lot and routinely posted a roster of "who is OSA on a.r.s." as a feeble distraction attempt. Eventually those hard core clam bakers decided to commune with their own navel at a place an otherwise serious seeming critic of Scientology set up for them to do their soooo hilarious and insightful cloambaking in, Operation Clambake here:

http://www.xenu.net/

It actually has some good material away from the discussion forums, like the complete texts of very good books of relevance, even if its discussion forums are basically a load of toss day in and day out just as a.r.s. had almost always been.


Anyway, back to the a.r.s clambaking stuff that involves Erlich, Lerma, and others. Erlich rather early on in the history of a.r.s. settled some claims he had against the Church of Scientology in exchange for, among things, a condo in Palm Springs, and presumably some money to pay the common assessment fees with. Nice place in terms of curb appeal I'd say. Mr. Lerma, in contrast, prefers the psychic rewards of being a critic of Scientology and in reaching further and further into far out schemes for explaining a basically familiar hustle that merely added a sci-fi angle under Hubbard's working of it. (The whole Egyptian gnostic part was already being worked over by folks in San Jose who teach "cosmic consciousness" via the Rosicrucian method, and the Theosophists were already handling another aspect of the market that wanted to be hustled in this area, and Crowley was merely a more notorious vendor of various Western influenced occultism that already had scads of operators working that angle, so really all Hubbard added to the hustle was BIG VISION and money hunger and of course the sci-fi angle. He doesn't take a lot of cryptic decoding to figure out really, though some enjoy that as a sport it seems.)

Lerma has, or had, vague communications with Pat Broeker, who was the person designated in a writing (purportedly by LRH) as the senior officer in the Sea Org upon LRH's passing, which Miscavige has never had the benefit of. Broeker also had a Ferrari allegedly "given" him by Hubbard, but that is dubious. LRH was well known to have the attitude "no one but me gets rich off this!!!" and I doubt he voluntarily gave Broeker such an expensive car. Broeker was for many years LRH's bagman to pick up money in secret Swiss or Luxemborg banks accounts and conduct it to Hubbard so he could pay whatever living expenses he needed without being traceable in doing so. In later years filtering this money through Nevada casinos with a lose factor involved became a standard laundering method and allowed for generous skimming I'm sure. Whether Broeker dipped into the till, such as by false reporting how much money he was losing in the process of laundering it through Nevada casinos in the process of filtering it to Hubbard, or whether Hubbard truly gave him a gift of a Ferrari, well . . . everyone will believe what they like anyhow on that point.

Allegedly Broeker was ousted by Miscavige by superior gamesmanship, or so the shore story goes. The shore story is that Broeker was exposed to IRS scrutiny or prosecution as being the bagman for Hubbard. This is foolish twaddle as Miscavige was just as elbow deep in the money laundering in Nevada casinos that fed Hubbard his living money as Broeker was, so the idea that Broeker was vulnerable for having a history of doing this compared to Miscavige is a pretty flimsy element of that shore story. Chances are Lerma knows something truer about this, that basically Broeker liked the quiet life with funds and a Ferrari to keep him amused so he just cut a deal with Miscavige to let DM be the lightening rod and the day by day shot caller. Anyone remember the Sopranos and how Uncle Junior became the nominal Boss of the family??? Same deal I'd suspect, but you won't hear that from the people who don't like speculation of that sort because it penetrates the shore story too well.


Anyhow, Mr. Lerma decided to indulge himself in a little silly "clambaking" with me in this thread by implying I'm OSA. I'm simply falling into the spirit of things and clambaking him right back. It's just old, er, "friends" (?) doing some "breaking balls" as they say on the Sopranos. No need to get puzzled by it.



so you never actually posted there and actually haven't read it - have you? Because you just posted a pile of steaming fail and I am at a loss to understand why. Other than trying to make it look like you have experience in the whole critic scene ...

It does not matter whether you are "osa" - the only thing that would matter would be the inaccurate "history" that you peddled above.
 

Jest3r

Patron
Jest3R - I am beginning to smell a little OSA bot on the board. While I love a healthy debate - I also have Oat Tea abilities to sniff out OSA bots diverting the truth about Scientology and L Ron Hubbard to take the attention away from the cold hard facts.

I think you have an MU so I can help you clear it! :wink2:

Hypnotism:http://www.transformationhypnosis.com/ I am not going to spoon feed the data - if you have interest - study up on it. If you are a Scientologist working for OSA - it is not going to match what Tubbs told you about Hypnosis so except some cognitive dissonance. :yes:

Here is a little data on hypnosis used in cults: (there is TONS of info available on the net)

The process of cult and mass therapy indoctrination may involve repeated inductions of trance-like states of consciousness similar to hypnosis. (GET UP THE BRIDGE, LRH IS SOURCE, NO VERBAL DATA, KSW, All critics of Scientology are hiding crimes etc)

Environmental (milieu) control, social manipulation, isolation and the use of prescribed consciousness-altering techniques (e.g. repetitive and/or continuous chanting, meditating, or praying) are some of the methods employed by cults to produce these altered states of awareness. Recent studies suggest that memories, emotions and even spiritual experiences can be manipulated while in hypnosis. Lack of informed consent and questionable concern for individual needs and wishes makes the use of these hypnotic techniques unethical.

Being subjected to repeated and prolonged hypnotic inductions can impair the convert's ability to make decisions and evaluate new information; moreover, the convert's altered awareness can "lock in," and become a conditioned personality response pattern. One result can be periodic episodes of unwanted trance experiences ("floating") that occur for months or even years after a cultist exits his/her group.

(Don't look at the internet - you can get sick and die if you read the story about XENU and his Body Thetans attached to you before you are ready - have spent $$$,$$$,$$$ and years going up a Bridge to nowhere) LOL

Here is some data about advertising and hypnotism:

http://www.adam-eason.com/2011/02/17/is-advertising-hypnosis-is-it-really-mass-hypnosis/
http://bizcovering.com/marketing-and-advertising/hypnosis-in-advertising/
http://www.marketinghypnotism.com/
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Use-of-Hypnosis-in-Advertising&id=4855552

I know you are new and have only a few posts - but this is the second thread (of mine) in 24 hours where you have posted disagreements with FACTS, not my opinions.

While you have a right to your opinion and I want you to have it - especially, if you were in the Cult of Scientology - but it is rather suspicious. Please do forgive me if I am sensative and wrong abou this. LOL

Perhaps tell us a little about yourself - were you in Scientology? Are you out of the cult but still have family in? What is your purpose here?

My purpose is to expose the truth about the cult of Scientology. I saw too many people harmed; bankruptcies in exchange for empty Idle Morgues and IAS billion dollar reserves. Here is the proof of the billions Scientology is sitting on:

All tax returns from 2011 - 2012 found here: http://scientologymoneyproject.com/...gy-western-united-states-irs-990-t-2009-2012/

Your turn ~ :biggrin: START!

You don't have "Oat Tea" abilities at sniffing out OSA bots. You immediately jumped to accusing me of being OSA because I disagreed with your statement. Which, by the way, was the first and only time I've replied to you and the first and only time I've posted any disagreements in your threads. So, I don't know where you're getting twice in 24 hours, but it is simply not true.

I wasn't speaking of hypnotism in cults, I was pointing out that what you said about advertising is merely subtle suggestion, not mass hypnosis, and what you said applies to almost every television commercial. To single out drug companies for this practice is, as I said, deceptively narrow.

No, I'm not nor have I ever been a Scientologist. I'm not here to derail threads, distract from discussion or start fights. In the short time I've posted here I've learned a few things about this place that lead me to believe this may be not be the community for me. There seems to be strong anti-drug sentiments and a general fear of outsiders. If you disagree with anyone, you're OSA. I didn't even know I was OSA until you clued me in. Thanks for that.

Paranoia is not a good look, Knows.
 

Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
You don't have "Oat Tea" abilities at sniffing out OSA bots. You immediately jumped to accusing me of being OSA because I disagreed with your statement. Which, by the way, was the first and only time I've replied to you and the first and only time I've posted any disagreements in your threads. So, I don't know where you're getting twice in 24 hours, but it is simply not true.

I wasn't speaking of hypnotism in cults, I was pointing out that what you said about advertising is merely subtle suggestion, not mass hypnosis, and what you said applies to almost every television commercial. To single out drug companies for this practice is, as I said, deceptively narrow.

No, I'm not nor have I ever been a Scientologist. I'm not here to derail threads, distract from discussion or start fights. In the short time I've posted here I've learned a few things about this place that lead me to believe this may be not be the community for me. There seems to be strong anti-drug sentiments and a general fear of outsiders. If you disagree with anyone, you're OSA. I didn't even know I was OSA until you clued me in. Thanks for that.

Paranoia is not a good look, Knows.

Wow - that was quite a strong HE&R Jest! I would like to indicate some bypassed charge on this subject. We all "get it"! LOL

Psychopaths and Narcissists attack the critic with statements about Paranoia!

Good try there Jest!!

We err on the side of caution here when it comes to Scientology (due to massive damage from trusting the cult) but you never being in the Cult, would not understand that!!

Why don't you do a personality test and see if you need some Scientological HELP and route yourself onto a personal efficiency course!! LOL

You come to a Ex Scientology message board with your pretended certainty? Why on earth would you spend your day doing that? :whistling: LOL:whatever::tease::dontfeedtrolls::dontfeedtrolls::dontfeedtrolls::dontfeedtrolls::dontfeedtrolls:

Here is a Hat Pack from an Ex OSA Operative to help you spot Bots...OSA Bots who come and derail threads... remember # of times over = CERTAINTY!

Ok, yes----I post occassionally on Marty's board. Some of you may wonder: Why?
Well, there's a little thing in the OSA manual called their bible, "The Art of War".
In it Sun Tzu says a few key things that OSA uses, all the time:
1) Master Sun
"Cause division amongst them" (page 54)
2) Cao Cao
"Send interlopers to cause rifts amongst them"
3) Meng Shi
"Strike at their gaps, attack when they are lax, don't let the enemy figure out how to prepare.This is why it is said in military operations that formlessness is the most effective. One of the great warrior-leaders said, "The most efficient of movements is the one that is unexpected; the best of plans is the one that is unknown".

Which is why I believe Anonymous has been so very successful. Also, once I noticed there was this huge
division amongst Critics, Marty and Anonymous, I looked at who that supported, and decided to try being in more communication, not less.

Does that mean we all need to agree? Hell no, and no, we won't either. However, can we all just agree to disagree, and keep our attentions focused on key issues we all agree on, such as the abuses of C of $? Imnsho--to me that's our best and most effective mode of operation. Even if you don't agree with this, my suggestion is try to post more FACTS about the organization known as the "church" of Scientology and their abuses that we all know, but MANY new people do not. People are leaving daily. They don't need to step out into this collision of views between people they thought were going to help them, or at least be supportive of them.
I speak from experience on this one....and I'm telling you, it's a VERY key time for people. They need you, or anyone they find safe. If it's ESMB or OCMB--fantastic. If it's WWP---also excellent. If that's Marty or Mike--that's great, too. They've helped a bunch of new people wake up and leave, and many speak out, also. Good for them! And on top of that, all (from all 4 groups) have helped educate *tons* of people about these very abuses. Yeah!

They're (new people) out, and that's #1 great. #2 is hopefully they'll feel safe enough to speak out.

For people calling each other criminals, please let me remind you of the 3 goals of the Top Secret OSA Int Internet gang, re the Net:
1) Distract off of any topic having to do with anything they don't want known.

I understand people *want* Marty and Mike to say more. Ok, fair enough. Do you think calling them criminals will motivate them to say more, or less?
Try to think of yourself in a similar position. Which would help you be motivated more?
I know for myself, at first I thought of M & M, and not really knowing them personally, just felt they were separate--as it is a bit of a closed group, or so it seemed. I realized I'd never even tried to communicate with that group---and I did, and it's been
far different than I thought. Then I really looked at my own personal views, and I have always said I am speaking out against the abuses, the Human Rights Violations of
C of $, which they all are against, also. I believe people have a right to believe whatever they want. The information is out there, and some shall look at it, some may never. I ~think~we all can at least agree that the abuses are # 1.


2) Degrade any and ALL activists exposing any thing they (DM and gang) don't want known.


Hello? Perhaps we've all gotten a bit blase' about Davey boy beating people up, but until this either STOPS or serious Justice occurs, it hasn't been said enough, imnsho. **Tons** of people have zero clue about this, so every TV show done is good for all of us.
(and unless you've done TV shows, my view is don't start calling others names or ragging on them for not doing enough). Try to keep in mind: We all unravel at different speeds.

3) Slime any public area, so people literally are embarrassed to even post there.


The above was told to me a few weeks before I quit that group, forever.

I hope that helps. While "in" C of $, at the next to the top, I found exclusion rampant, and it sucked.

I'm interested in inclusion, and connections.
I believe we all have things
we can share and it's important we respect each other,
and help each other. God knows we all have been through enough! May we have more of this: :gathering:>>>not this::fencing:

My love to you all.
:rose:
Tory/Magoo
Scientology: Reminder of Internet Mafia Programs - Tory Magoo


Operation Clambake presents: Tory Christman
http://www.xenu.net/archive/personal_story/tory/
OSA 101 - Part 1 How the OSA Trap really works (Mar 2001)
OSA 101 - Part 2 The key players (Mar 2001)
OSA 101 - Part 3 Who is the real Mike Smith (Mar 2001)
OSA 101 - Part 4 Black PR (Mar 2001)
OSA 101 - Part 5 Super super secret (Apr 2001)

A good quote I read recently - "When dealing with psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists in relationships; whether in marriage or involved in a group -

"His/Her or The Organization of Scientology - their strengths are FAKE but your flaws are manufactured"!
 
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Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
That is wonderful. I always enjoy reading what Tory has to say.

For a "never in" and new to this board - you sure know your players! :coolwink: VWD!:clap:

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Innominate Dude
Dennis Erlich and Mr. Lerma were some of the original big guns on a newsgroup forum called alt.religion.scientology which started being relevant right around 20 years ago. In keeping with the "anarchist lunatic terrorist" ethos of the "alt." newsgroup tier it was on, it quickly turned into an undisciplined arena for spewing juvenile nonsense, far out conspiracy theories, and generally degenerated into more of a school yard taunting exhibition that a real newsgroup. The few educated people in the arena of debate, such as librarian Diane Richardson at a psychiatric reference library, were generally the butt of hate and spewing of general venom for the psychological satisfaction of the reading public and posters alike, but for no real good reason other than that.

S
o you have been at this for 20 years? WHY??? I would never even have any interest to go to an Ex Mormon blog and start responding to ex members stating that I know more than them...

Don't you have a life you want to live? I do mean that with all sincerity? What is your fascination with Scientology if you ain't a bot?

I suggest you get one...plesae, this is painful to watch you!

 

Jest3r

Patron
For a "never in" and new to this board - you sure know your players! :coolwink: VWD!:clap:
Uh-huh. I'm not sure if you're aware, but she posts on other blogs and forums outside of ESMB. And I don't really know her, but I tend to think of her less as a "player" and more as a person. You know, like as a human being.
 

Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
Uh-huh. I'm not sure if you're aware, but she posts on other blogs and forums outside of ESMB. And I don't really know her, but I tend to think of her less as a "player" and more as a person. You know, like as a human being.

Totally agree with you Jest - Tory is a great human being! She has done some serious blowage to the cult by helping expose the truth about the Cult.

What exactly is your contribution besides arguing here about something you have not personally experienced? I do mean this sincerely. You have very few posts here and you have not brought anything to the table that I can use. Maybe others can - but I find your data subjective where our posts are based on facts. You seem to twist things to suit what you think instead of backing them up with facts. IF the rest of the world agrees that advertising is a form of hypnosis - that is a fact. Just because you don't agree does not make it so. I personally, never thought I could get hypnotized. Hubbard further complicated the subject by feeding the members data that he codified everything scientifically. He stated that one could not get hypnotized unless in pain or unconscious. I had NO interest in the Bridge cuz I did not see anyone with any skills or abilities that impressed me. I got in cuz the Relgious Cloaking used to make Scientology seem like a religion for all religions and promised it would not be like Organized Relgions hence the need for the Scio-Speak.

I was hypnotized and traumatized by the Scientology system and its tech. Once I started applying the PTS/SP tech to my life - it shattered!! How convenient that Scientology then $ells me the $olution and I waste $$$,$$$,$$$ and years on a complete fraudulent Bridge to nowhere!

What were the results of the bridge - People that could not think for themselves, who were suppressed from speaking out about the crimes committed daily in the cult. I saw people commit suicide, die of cancer at young ages, die of unexplained deaths, bankrutpcy and foreclosure and straight up and vertical divorces - but all kept a secret cuz no entheta!

Then, I found myself with an urge of HAVING to get up the Bridge...an impluse and it was irrational because I got WORSE, not better. The hypnotic suggestions worked - "GET UP THE BRIDGE! GO CLEAR! GO OAT! DONATE TO THE IDLE MORGUE! DONATE TO THE IAS!!" All done with no scientific proof of anything!

But Tubbs had that handled by telling the clubbed seals that you are revealing your "true social tone level" - 76 trillion years of living lives over and over..and it was all BULLSHIT! There was NO SCIENCE to his Bridge - it is a psuedo - science. FAKE and phony just like ole Tubbs with his rotten teeth $elling the Way to Happiness with precepts such as "brush your teeth" and "take care of your parents and children" but he could not do either.

I really don't get it - why the fascination with Scientology - you admit you read other blogs too. That means you have to learn the lingo and the complicated covert operation of the cult to fully understand it and it is hard enough learning that while in much less being out.

Can you enlighten us as to why you are interested in this subject?

What religion do you practice or believe in?

Do you go to other cult message boards and post? Which ones?

Thanks for answering the questions!! :thumbsup:
 
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Jest3r

Patron
Totally agree with you Jest - Tory is a great human being! She has done some serious blowage to the cult by helping expose the truth about the Cult.

What exactly is your contribution besides arguing here about something you have not personally experienced? I do mean this sincerely. You have very few posts here and you have not brought anything to the table that I can use. Maybe others can - but I find your data subjective where our posts are based on facts. You seem to twist things to suit what you think instead of backing them up with facts. IF the rest of the world agrees that advertising is a form of hypnosis - that is a fact. Just because you don't agree does not make it so. I personally, never thought I could get hypnotized. Hubbard further complicated the subject by feeding the members data that he codified everything scientifically. He stated that one could not get hypnotized unless in pain or unconscious. I had NO interest in the Bridge cuz I did not see anyone with any skills or abilities that impressed me. I got in cuz the Relgious Cloaking used to make Scientology seem like a religion for all religions and promised it would not be like Organized Relgions hence the need for the Scio-Speak.

I was hypnotized and traumatized by the Scientology system and its tech. Once I started applying the PTS/SP tech to my life - it shattered!! How convenient that Scientology then $ells me the $olution and I waste $$$,$$$,$$$ and years on a complete fraudulent Bridge to nowhere!

What were the results of the bridge - People that could not think for themselves, who were suppressed from speaking out about the crimes committed daily in the cult. I saw people commit suicide, die of cancer at young ages, die of unexplained deaths, bankrutpcy and foreclosure and straight up and vertical divorces - but all kept a secret cuz no entheta!

Then, I found myself with an urge of HAVING to get up the Bridge...an impluse and it was irrational because I got WORSE, not better. The hypnotic suggestions worked - "GET UP THE BRIDGE! GO CLEAR! GO OAT! DONATE TO THE IDLE MORGUE! DONATE TO THE IAS!!" All done with no scientific proof of anything!

But Tubbs had that handled by telling the clubbed seals that you are revealing your "true social tone level" - 76 trillion years of living lives over and over..and it was all BULLSHIT! There was NO SCIENCE to his Bridge - it is a psuedo - science. FAKE and phony just like ole Tubbs with his rotten teeth $elling the Way to Happiness with precepts such as "brush your teeth" and "take care of your parents and children" but he could not do either.

I really don't get it - why the fascination with Scientology - you admit you read other blogs too. That means you have to learn the lingo and the complicated covert operation of the cult to fully understand it and it is hard enough learning that while in much less being out.

Can you enlighten us as to why you are interested in this subject?

What religion do you practice or believe in?

Do you go to other cult message boards and post? Which ones?

Thanks for answering the questions!! :thumbsup:

Well, I haven't really had a chance to contribute. I disagreed with your factual opinion(?) that we are being hypnotized by drug companies and I was immediately labeled an OSA bot. That might be due in part to you confusing me with Innominate Dude, but I'm not sure.

As for my personal beliefs and interests, why should I share that information with you after you've been so rude to me? I'm not going to explain myself to you and I'm not going to derail this thread any further. You have not been very pleasant to converse with and I will try to avoid you from now on. But I do wish you well.

ML
 
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