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LAPD Investigating Alexander Jentzsch's Death

Discussion in 'Fair Game and Disconnection Victims' started by Michele_B, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. sallydannce

    sallydannce Gold Meritorious Patron

  2. onthepes

    onthepes Patron with Honors

    Oh, Karen. So sad for your loss. I had not really read the story properly before but I gave it some attention.

    For what it is worth, if I cared for my sons half as much as what you care for Alexander I would feel proud as a parent. I wish you nothing but the best
  3. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    Methadone could have been prescribed both to control pain (in his back and perhaps elsewhere, which resulted from the car accident) and also to help deal with addiction to opiates which were also prescribed for pain. Doctors sometimes end up with a few catch-22s in certain situations.

    But, since the cult was in the scenario...who knows what treatments were withheld and what medical appointments were avoided to prevent bad PR and even what payoffs there may have been to passively, or more aggressively, assist an extremely young "end cycle".
  4. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Karen. Alexander must have been in terrible chronic pain to have been on the these medicines. It's clear to me that he had been prescribed various medicines for an orthopedic or neurologic pain condition. Mobic ( Meloxicam ) is an antiimflammatory used for arthritic swelling nd tenderness; Gabapenton ( Neurontin) is often used for chronic sharp neurological pains resulting from post shingles, herniated discs and spinal arthritis. Looks like the pain treatment escalated to hydrocodone and then Methadone. Was this medicine prescribed in TX?

    I'm so sorry he didn't get appropriate help for the pneumonia. :bigcry:
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2012
  5. BunnySkull

    BunnySkull Silver Meritorious Patron

    Many time methadone is prescribed for pain for 2 reasons -
    1) It is much longer lasting than typical narcotics for pain control, so rather than taking a pill every 4-6 hours with methadone is a pill is taken once every 12 or 24 hours.
    2) With chronic pain people quickly build tolerances to narcotics, what worked very well at first (like vidicon/hydrocodone) no longer has the same effect after a few months on it. The miligrams are increased and then after that hits a wall they will be changed to a stronger pain med (oxycodone/percocets)... It continues on and pain patients find themselves very dependent on the drugs. Methadone might be used in this case because it offers both pain control and is a good maintenance drug for people dependent on narcotics. (Hence why you see methadone clinics for heroin addicts.)
    Usually for pain control only methadone is prescribed at low amounts, 10 to 20 mgs. For dependency issues, along with pain control, the doses will be much higher - 40 to 100 mg doses.

    Also, just like all narcotics, both methadone and hydrocodone/vicodin are CNS depressants. They can cause surpressed respiratory function, which at high enough doses can cause death. Also, narcotics are also strong cough supressents (notice how cough syrup has coedine?) so if you had a bad cold or pneumonia you would find these drugs would offer real relief from the coughing - and might take more because it helped your cough and made peaceful sleep possible.

    Why he wasn't in the hospital or on the strongest antibiotics is a total mystery, ESP given he was seeing doctors and was taking prescription medicine already.

    The fact he was in the home of the ridiculously anti-drug /medicine Scientologist taking this list of drugs is another mystery. I don't believe the in-laws weren't aware of the fact. I wonder if a blind eye was purposely turned to Alexander's pneumonia and his drug intake in hopes he might "accidentally" die and not be such a frightening liability for the church. (I'm sure they would do ANYTHING to keep Alex from Karen) The sheer negligence of their behavior points to this.

    It's obviously any young man in Alex's shoes would be shaken to his core and struggling to make sense of life and fight the depression events such as marriage breaking up, losing a job, bad accident, leaving the SO- the only life he had really known and then being disconnected from his only real parent (Karen) because she had discovered the truth behind the cult. He had to have been terribly pulled between the cult he had been indoctrinated to obey and believe was "the only way" and his mother who was now asking him to face the reality of the cult.

    Given all this, plus physical pain from his accident, is it any wonder he may have found some escape with drugs? The other side of narcotics, besides relief from physical pain, is they also give temporary relief from mental pain and anguish. Narcotics can give someone a sense of peace and serenity - it allows them to escape from reality at least temporarily.

    Can anyone blame Alexander wanting some form of escape from the reality the cult had inflicted upon him? Or for Alexander maybe ignoring the physical symptoms of pneumonia because compared to the mental pain it didn't even register as that bad?
  6. Karen#1

    Karen#1 Gold Meritorious Patron

    That was very helpful Bunnyskull. Thank you for writing that up.
    Another ESMBer with a strong pharmaceutical background sent me this blurb back channels ~~​

    Reading the above I suddenly understood what had happened at Stan Gerson's house a few days before Alexander's death.

    (Stan Gerson is the Real Estate broker/Magician/OT VIII that put out an OSA propaganda piece ~~ Stan is an OSA asset.)

    Alexander was visiting with Stan in Woodland Hills, CA only days before his death. He had a breathing Episode where he could not breath.

    Instead of a hospital visit or a Doctor's visit (but Alexander had no money and no Health Insurance) ...guess what ~~ they gave him a TOUCH ASSIST !

    A few days later he was dead.

    Then Stan Gerson, works for OSA and puts out a deceptive fluff and froth piece.

    I hope Stan Gerson is VERY PROUD of himself,
    "OT VIII" with all the knowingness of what to do !

    Super Senior Spiritual Being !​
  7. BunnySkull

    BunnySkull Silver Meritorious Patron

    What your contact sent is a very good point. Methadone is extremely long lasting, while the pain control may last 12 hours the other effects can continue to 36 hours or more. Pain is the first thing to break through, and this is ESP. true the more sever the pain. I don't know how long Alex had been taking it but one of the problem with new patients is they are very accustomed to taking other meds every 4 to 6 hours - and don't quite believe they can trust waiting 12 hours between doses. This on top of the fact you only need relatively low doses - people think it's not enough. (For instance for pain control 30 mgs of hydrocodone (6 pills) would equal 10 mgs (1pill) of methadone)

    Also when it comes to chronic back pain there is a big emphasis on keeping the pain in check. Taking pain meds before the pain gets bad is the best way to keep ut under control. If you let the pain intensify and then take meds once it is severe you are going to fight an up hill battle - preventing the pain from getting severe is key to pain management.

    I can't say anything Stan did would shock me. After reading his propaganda email it was obvious he had no integrity and his only concern was himself and doing what the cult told him to do. The fact he would only offer a touch assist to someone in respiratory distress is insane! Breathing problem are life and death matters. If Stan was a real friend he would have called EMS and maybe then Alex would have gotten proper treatment.

    The cold indifferent treatment of all these "adult" Scientologists towards Alexander is disgusting. Most decent people would have tried to be parental stand-ins to a young man in Alex's situation - or at least been compassionate and looked out for his welfare. Instead you had a bunch of adults so cowardly they put the dictates and PR of their cult above that of a dying young man. I wonder how they can face themselves in the mirror each morning.

    Please stay strong Karen, and keep fighting on behalf of Alexander. I have a strong feeling your work will end up saving the lives of many young men and women in the SO.
  8. Idle Morgue

    Idle Morgue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Stan Gershon is a cheesy used car salesman that "thinks" he is a Sell-Ebb - and such a powerful human being. He rents his home in the LA area and is really quite the ladies man! :puke2:I remember meeting him several times and thought he was so "LA" and gross! Stan has drank too much of the kool-aid and is too far gone.

    What is ironic about Scientology is that the result of their "help" really does not help anyone. In the big picture - it really destroys in the name of help. I would never recommend to anyone to even read a book or listen to that fat fuck.

    Any help that people pay for and experience relief or a "whin" or two is quickly cancelled out by the whole routing shit and it never stops. Not to mention the endless crap of endless regging.

    How absolutely absurd that a "church" acts the way they do about a dedicated family that did so much to help the organization - discard value only. :bigcry: We all are discard value - even the members still in! So sad that no one is valued!

    Karen - you are so right to be upset and may this evil cult spiral down very fast!! We are all upset right along with you!! I hate this organization like no other!! Absolutely hate them!:grouch: We love you Karen!!
  9. Karen#1

    Karen#1 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks again BunnySkull.
    Very helpful and valuable dialogue.
    At first I bought into the "car accident injury" and I had assumed it occurred in Dallas where he lived for the last year of his life. But then I found out from the Coroner that there was no accident in Dallas.

    The so called car accident was in Glendale months before I got declared.
    Alexander was driving at 1am and a 21 year old texting while driving broadsided him in an intersection.

    He called me at 1 am and I rushed over. His airbag had deployed and so had the other air bag of the Sea org member riding in the passenger seat.
    They walked away without a scratch.

    We are delving deep into all kinds of medical records, but if this was the so called "car accident" then I am baffled because for the next several weeks we saw each other daily and there was no mention of back pain.

    We had to go shopping to buy him another Acura as his was totaled. He was energetic and eager to get a new Acura, he never mentioned back pain.

    But pneumonia was discovered in the autopsy.
    He never took anti-biotics to fight the pneumonia. He took more drugs and methadone !

    Someone sent me this

    The point is that no one around him, not his wife, no friends, no relatives, no in-laws simply got him to a Doctor.
    Heck, he checked in with OSA frequently.

    It WOWd me that he even called "Donatella" (2nd in command in Intelligence) to *ASK* permission to work for a *WOG* company ! (A few days before his death)

    My God !

    The control they had on him that he, at 27 years, felt he had to call OSA to ask *Permission* of whether he could work for a *WOG* company !

    They controlled his life, his disconnection from his MOM but OSA INTELLIGENCE did not have the INTELLIGENCE to know he had pneumonia and let him die with a bunch of phony pretended *enlightened* Scientologists.

    Maureen Evans (Alexander's mother in Law) when presented with a polite letter from me asking permission to take my sons body out of the morgue, screamed at my messenger that I could ONLY talk to Office of Special Affairs. !
    Now get off the property before I call the Los Angeles Police Department ! she screamed hysterically. That was the response I got for asking for my son's dead body.

    She had been carefully coached by Donatella of OSA who was on the telephone with Jeffrey and Maureen Evans 8 times a day for the first week and more after Alexander's death.

    Maureen is a Saint Hill Special Briefing Course Student, learning advanced ARC mechanics and Understanding how to handle the Human soul !

    A "Private Family matter " OSA repeatedly Lied to the media.

    A Private Family Matter indeed !

  10. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    Of course, thanks to the CofS, your dearly beloved son had no access to real Family at all. :angry:
    Condolences Karen, this is heartbreaking stuff. :hug:
  11. Kookaburra

    Kookaburra Gold Meritorious Patron

  12. secretiveoldfag

    secretiveoldfag Silver Meritorious Patron

    This finally makes sense.

    Someone gave Alexander methadone which he took unsupervised.
    The cumulative effect depressed his breathing to the point where infection got started.
    This developed into pneumonia.
    He died either from the pneumonia or from the breathing problem.

    It doesn't make it better or easier to bear but it is medically and individually plausible.
    Alexander was neither negligent nor guilty. He did absolutely nothing wrong.
    His in-laws' neglect of him is all the more inhuman. They were both negligent and guilty.
  13. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I agree. Whether that is legally guilty I don't know. I suggest giving all this data to the police who may not have looked at all the parameters of the
    medical situation.

    Also who ever prescribed the methadone may be culpable.

    I thought methodone was obtainable "on the street". That so?
  14. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Reading this thread got me thinking about how Scientology messes with families. It also got me once again reviewing various BIG contradictions within Scientology.

    Back when I was still undeclared, in about 2000, my kids and I were scheduled to visit with relatives in the Miami area. I lived in Clearwater at the time. My son and daughter were both still in the Sea Org (son age 16, daughter age 19).

    Knowing the intense bureaucratic idiocy of the Sea Org, and how absurdly difficult it can be to get even a few days off, I made sure to "grease the lines" in plenty of advanced time. My kids hadn't seen their grandmother or aunt and uncle (on my dead ex-wife's side - who died of breast cancer in the Sea Org) in a long time. Their aunt and uncle gave us 6 MONTHS advanced notice of the visit. So, I sat down with my kids and put together detailed CSWs. These were approved many months before the visit was to take place.

    About 3 months before the visit was to happen, my daughter began routing out of the Sea Org. She was following the policy on Leaving & Leaves, and of course, had been ordered NOT to talk to me (or anyone else) about routing out. She did tell me a few weeks before the visit that she could NOT go. And, she wouldn't talk about it or tell me anything.

    I basically knew she was routing out, and could tell what was going on. I began to get in comm with her seniors, with HCO, and with the Captain FSO (Debbie Cook). I explained that my daughter had not seen her grandma or aunt & uncle in quite a few years, that this has been planned for MANY months, that it has been APPROVED for many months, and that the already somewhat antagonistic relatives would surely get MUCH MORE upset & antago if my daughter didn't show up.

    I referenced LRH quotes on family and ARC. I explained how this would have LONG-LASTING negative effects for the family, because the relatives would NEVER "understand" such idiocy. I got pretty angry, and I basically told at least three senior FSO staff in written reports that they were idiots, and that for all the THEORIES and CLAIMS about Scientology caring about relationships, that it was all BULLSHIT. I write and include lots of details - I did THAT too in my reports and comm to these various Sea Org morons.

    I also told my daughter to just LEAVE for the 3 days, and return after the visit. I told her not to bother or care about "getting approval". I told her that she was dealing with what were basically mindless robots. I told her that they have power over her only if she allows it. Realize that I was then still in "good standing". Of course, as I have explained in other posts, my recognition of the idiocies of the behavior of the Sea Org had long been obvious to me - and at times I didn't hold back telling others so.

    Of course, one of the BIGGEST no-no's in Scientology is bad-mouthing the "elite" Sea Org. :hysterical:

    My daughter was getting Sec Checks, so of course, she told them everything that I said. I knew she would. :confused2:

    I was found found GUILTY of a suppressive act (violating Leaving & Leaves) because I told my daughter to just LEAVE. I did also tell her to return after 3 days, and continue on whatever routing form cycle she was in progress on. THAT was all ignored in my SP declare - of course. As is so very common in SP Declares, the "data" is carefully selected, culled, edited and presented in a way to justify finding one guilty of the "crimes" (while generally omitting LOTS of other relevant information). The term "kangaroo court" is quite approriate in the sham known as "Scientology justice".

    This HIGH CRIME appeared on my SP Declare along with a few others.

    I was found guilty of a Suppressive Act for trying to maintain ARC aming the family members!!!! :duh:

    Note: I have a special spot in my memory for Debbie Cook being a MAJOR ASSHOLE involved with all of this.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  15. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Gees, Gad, that is awful. So what happened after you were declared? Ya can't leave us hanging like this . . . :drama: :bighug:
  16. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    What happened? The usual typical Scientology nonsense "happened".

    My children both disconnected from me. You know, "disconnection", the practice that Scientology PR spokespeople will state "does not exist".

    But, to make a long story short (as I have expained all this before), my daughter did leave the Sea Org. She was "sent" to New Mexico to be FAR AWAY from Clearwater and me. But, within a few years she moved back to Clearwater, despite the urgings of the Sea Org for her not to. Realize that whenever a Sea Org member "routes out", they try to get them to "move far away" because it is "enturbulating for the extant SO staff to see and contact ex-Sea Org members". :lol:

    And, by about 2003, my daughter had gotten back in comm with me, and was living at my home. That was funny, because for awhile there her Scientology friends would pick her up at my house (not realizing that her declared SP dad lived there). But, eventually Flag got wind that she was in contact with her SP father, and they tried to get her to come in for a "handling". She wouldn't even answer their phone calls and messages. So, after awhile she got declared as an SP too! :duh:

    All her Scientology "friends" quickly vanished. There was much about all of it that was very upsetting to her (at the time). She is quite over it all now. She just thinks they are all a bunch of assholes - which they ARE! :yes:

    And, of course, though the ONLY real reason for her getting declared was because she refused to disconnect from me, they padded her SP Declare with all sorts of OTHER nonsense. She cared so little about Scientology by that point that I don't think she even bothered to read the Goldenrod that was sent to her.

    My son also routed out of the Sea Org around 2004, but he has remained disconnected for the most part from both of us. He contacts my daughter every once in awhile, generally through e-mail, but we haven't seen him in at least 10 years! That sucks. But THAT IS SCIENTOLOGY! :confused2:

    I mean, I could get all worked up about it, I suppose, but I do "practice what I preach" when it comes to the Buddhist ideas of non-attachment. On a certain level concern and attention for anything, including a family member, is a consideration and involves ones OWN mental attachment to the idea. Such attachments are an activity of a thinking mind. For the most part I just let all things like that go. I don't suppress it or repress it, and I really do just "move on". I don't "contribute to the mental mock-up".

    But, I am very aware of and feel the pain of others who have had their families ripped apart through the inane behavior brought about by following Hubbard's idiotic ideas and policies. :yes:

    For the most part I feel like I am a quiet observer in a world filled with excessive pain and suffering, and while I myself can and have somewhat of an ability to "let it all go", for me at least, I am also filled at times with the immense pain and suffering of others - that happens sometimes when one manages to connect to others through compassion and understanding.

    From the viewpoint of an eternal being, getting overly stuck on the events, situations and forces of any tiny moment in time seems a bit

    . . . . . unwarranted? Unnecessary? Inappropriate?

    But, I most certainly understand how many of us can and do "get stuck" in such moments.

    That is what makes us human (and not "eternal").
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  17. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

  18. ILove2Lurk

    ILove2Lurk Lisbeth Salander


    I really "grok" you. That's about the same what I got stably from my prior Scientology work combined much other reading, lurking, and contemplating after I left.

    Over time, I've concluded that what you said there, well . . . that's probably as good as it gets. And attaining that perspective for real is no small feat for anyone. Takes some real dedicated spiritual work over a lifetime, more than most people are willing or capable of investing given the distractions of everyday life and making a living.

    I dedicated the time and largely attained what I'd been striving for.

    (Except for the part of "pulling the air covers off of planets." Did not attain that bit.) :coolwink: :no:

    Great posts, Gadfly.

    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  19. secretiveoldfag

    secretiveoldfag Silver Meritorious Patron

    Derail, anybody?
  20. BunnySkull

    BunnySkull Silver Meritorious Patron

    Thanks for the acknowledgment Karen I'm glad you find even the least bit helpful. I learned a lot about methadone when I was interning for my degree in social work and I'm trying to impart as much as I think is useful to you to try and help. The problem is there is a lot mystery and ignorance about methadone so I try to sort the fact from fiction when I can.

    It's very interesting that comment about walking pneumonia causing intense back pain, much like kidney infections make you think you have a problem with your back. Also its called "walking pneumonia" exactly because you can walk around not knowing you have it, the symptoms aren't what you would expect. I also wonder if the pneumonia intensified his back troubles and Alex therefore took more methadone, because the back pain had gotten so much worse and he didn't know why.

    I really hope you get to the bottom of what actually was causing the pain he was in - whether if was effects of a car accident or pneumonia or was rooted in all the mental cruelty he was subjected to. Keep in mind some people right after a car accident do feel fine, maybe a little stiff or sore, and then weeks or months later they suddenly find themselves in pain - but that's not common. I really think nailing down the source of the pain and when it started troubling him is important.

    As I'm sure you are aware, when people are put through the ringer mentally it can manifest as real physical pain. As an example one might have a bad knee but they deal with it and pop and OTC like advil or the like and manage. But then some terrible tragedy occurs or maybe they sink into a deep depression - suddenly the pain in that bad knee flares up and become intolerable. There is no doubt mental health has a direct and strong effect on physical health.

    The problem could be made much worse if they are given narcotics because when someone is in physical and mental pain - they are ripe to become dependent on them. Narcotics would give them temp. relief from their mental pain and that's very appealing and rare - it numbs you physically and mentally. Drug induced euphoria is still euphoria. People will do anything to escape terrible pain, and who can blame them.

    I also question the methadone prescription. I would have to think the back pain had been going on quite some time for him to be prescribed methadone - or maybe it was a relatively new prescription? Just keep in mind that methadone is a schedule 2 drug, doctors do not just hand it out willy nilly. (Even shady doctors wouldn't prescribe it right off the bat but start with the less powerful drugs such as hydrocodone.) The DEA watches prescriptions for controlled substances and they watch methadone and fetyanl particularly closely. It's really confusing to me that Alex would have been prescribed methadone unless he had been seeing a doctor for a long time and other pain meds had not or stopped working for him.

    One thing I will note since you mention that Alex had no money and no insurance - Methadone is probably by far the cheapest narcotic pain killer available. If some one needed pain medicine, and cost was a major issue methadone would offer not only the cheapest option but the longest action for pain killing effects. When prescribed it costs pennies. In fact I just checked online at a pharmacy, with a prescription you can get over 200 10mg methadone pills at a cost of $30. (compare that to 30 .5 mg hydrocodone pills which would be closer to $60 and those would go quick since they have to be taken every 4-6 hours.)

    For cost reasons alone methadone may have been a viable option for Alex. The doctor would know this too and probably would have offered it as an option to patients where paying the prescriptions costs poses a real hardship.

    (And to clear up a misconception someone posted earlier, methadone is sold on the streets. Pretty much ANY schedule II/narcotic has significant street value in the US but I don't think this has anything to do with Alex's case. I just saw someone stating earlier that methadone was never sold on the street and it was only used for heroin dependency - not true. When people go to "methadone clinics" which are the places that prescribe it for addiction issues, not pain, it's not only for heroin addicts. Anyone who becomes dependent on narcotics (defined as opiate based drugs) might go to a methadone clinic - it just widely known for heroin addicts because they initially opened to help heroin addicts. In fact the program was started in the early 70's in the US to help the huge influx of Vietnam vets coming home who had developed an addiction to heroin in Asia, and continued at home.)

    Ok, I think I have exhausted all my useful knowledge on the subject. If it helps in even the tiniest way I'd be thrilled. I know this is a huge puzzle you are trying to piece together and I wish you all the best. I know I, and many people here, would do anything in our power to help you get to the bottom of it.