Larry Brennan on David Miscavige

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
I have PM'd a few things to Larry you aren't reading here, but I did ask him why he was mixing it with deprogrammers like Steve Hassan?

Wow. Steve Hassan. I'd love to meet him. I would imagine Larry is simply taking advantage of the ability that exists outside of the CoS to meet anyone he pleases or otherwise encounters so that he might make up his own mind. Isn't there something in Scientology about assessing ALL the data?

And while my imagination is running wild, is it possible that you mentioned Steve Hassan here so that someone might provide some data that you otherwise have no excuse to investigate for yourself? Well, just in case . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Luh7...29101A083&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x56H...29101A083&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=3
 

x-x

Patron with Honors
OK, X-X - you've finally gotten me worked up enough to take your bait and respond to some more specifics in your post, so here goes:

Let's use Scio PR tech to evaluate this statement:

1. Which scholars? All of the scholars approached agreed? How many disagreed?

2. What are the c.v.'s of these scholars?

One of them had taught at Oxford and Harvard, and had been Principal of an elite theological college of one of the worlds major religions attached to one of the leading Universities in the Asia Pacific region.

However as I am no longer on official Church PR lines, I just do this for fun and as a fellow OT to those in difficulty, I won't give you specific references. Needless to say that Xenophon's little side show is barking up the wrong tree in that he is seeking to impose a template on religion.

The vast majority of ALL PEOPLE on the planet have a hope that they are more than flesh and bone. So what?

Well it is very important that they do have a spiritual stable datum as the belief in MEST alone leads to a loss in values, truth, faith etc, the top buttons on the Chart of Attitudes (Handbook for Preclears, abbreviated form 8:8008). The MU that Xenophon and some other Senators unfortunately seem to have is that spriritual qualities are valuable and each religion, "even" the Muslems contributes to society to the extent that they promote these values. (I say "even the Moslems" ironically as I used to be a Moslem for a while while I was looking around other religions, including Buddhism and Hinduism, before I settled on Scientology). Thus it is impossible for a value to be placed on these qualities as that would violate section 116 of the Australian Constitution. The idea that you measure the MEST contribution of the religion is equally absurd. As it happens a few years ago the law was changed to ensure that contemplative orders of the Catholic Church were regarded as "charitable" religions. These guys just pray all day and don't mix with the public.


It's not a "cult of materialism" to take care of yourself. It's a precept of TWTH, Student Guide to Acceptable Behavior and the Hat of a PC.

I don't believe Ron wrote TWTH, I have come to the conclusion it was written to a project from him. It is inconsistent with early Scientology where care of the body was not promoted. However in practical terms there is nothing wrong with this. TWTH is very successful I have had very good changes in people from giving them this booklet. Students and PC's need to be sessionable. Scientology is increasingly involved in disaster relief and as it grows larger this will continue, but hopefully they won't lose their message as the Salvo's seem to almost have. When the Salvation Army started they just preached their viewpoint of the Gospel which was unpopular with sinners as it required them to change their behaviour. You can read their history elsewhere. They seem to have toned down their message which is a pity. REPENT ESMBers!!!

I think there is a middle road with truth - that's what Buddha said. You might just call it an analytical approach, there are no absolutes in Scientology.


One major OUTPOINT of the practice of "organized Scientology" is that if you're on auditing lines (and sometimes even training lines - like at Flag for example), you have to get C/S OK to go to a doctor. Why is that?

Jeez mate, I thought you said you were on staff 20 years and got onto OT 7. Your treatment might conflict with the activity you are doing. However this does not apply for emergency conditions.



You are correct about this. Miscavige IS legitimate.

I am not sure I said that, I think there are a few things to say about his leadership for and against. I am pragmatic about it. If he is going to fail it will be in the next few years, he is pushing people hard, that is partly what leaders are supposed to do. He is pushing purpose. Some other issues it is for the people directly concerned to resolve if they exist. There are some pretty able people at that level. I'm not currently on service lines but I don't seem to generate the same problems that some of you do. You have to take responsibility for the whole scene. As you should know by now "problems" are often the manifestation of something else. I sympathise with your predicament, life can be tough, read the book of Job. I've been through tough experiences where things went against me. Come through it with your integrity intact.

I am on your side.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
I am pragmatic about it. If he is going to fail it will be in the next few years, he is pushing people hard, that is partly what leaders are supposed to do. He is pushing purpose. Some other issues it is for the people directly concerned to resolve if they exist. There are some pretty able people at that level.

Nothing can go tits up quite like an activity run by able people heading in the wrong direction, though.

I'm not currently on service lines but I don't seem to generate the same problems that some of you do. You have to take responsibility for the whole scene. [...]

I am on your side.

I get that last, truly I do, but none of us have any obligation to take any responsibility for Scientology. After years of efforting at it, I walked away, and I've been much happier and saner for having done so.
 

Doom

Lurking.
One of them had taught at Oxford and Harvard, and had been Principal of an elite theological college of one of the worlds major religions attached to one of the leading Universities in the Asia Pacific region.
Name Please and the name of the college too.

However as I am no longer on official Church PR lines, I just do this for fun and as a fellow OT to those in difficulty, I won't give you specific references.
I think it's funny that you won't tell the whole truth on this.
Needless to say that Xenophon's little side show is barking up the wrong tree in that he is seeking to impose a template on religion.
He is not and you know it



Well it is very important that they do have a spiritual stable datum as the belief in MEST alone leads to a loss in values, truth, faith etc, the top buttons on the Chart of Attitudes (Handbook for Preclears, abbreviated form 8:8008). The MU that Xenophon and some other Senators unfortunately seem to have is that spriritual qualities are valuable and each religion, "even" the Muslems contributes to society to the extent that they promote these values. (I say "even the Moslems" ironically as I used to be a Moslem for a while while I was looking around other religions, including Buddhism and Hinduism, before I settled on Scientology). Thus it is impossible for a value to be placed on these qualities as that would violate section 116 of the Australian Constitution. The idea that you measure the MEST contribution of the religion is equally absurd. As it happens a few years ago the law was changed to ensure that contemplative orders of the Catholic Church were regarded as "charitable" religions. These guys just pray all day and don't mix with the public.
By that do you mean that charging for services is ok, because you just said "Thus it is impossible for a value to be placed on these qualities as that would violate section 116 of the Australian Constitution" or is it just out of context.




I don't believe Ron wrote TWTH, I have come to the conclusion it was written to a project from him. It is inconsistent with early Scientology where care of the body was not promoted. However in practical terms there is nothing wrong with this. TWTH is very successful I have had very good changes in people from giving them this booklet. Students and PC's need to be sessionable. Scientology is increasingly involved in disaster relief and as it grows larger this will continue, but hopefully they won't lose their message as the Salvo's seem to almost have. When the Salvation Army started they just preached their viewpoint of the Gospel which was unpopular with sinners as it required them to change their behaviour. You can read their history elsewhere. They seem to have toned down their message which is a pity. REPENT ESMBers!!!
But the CofS is not out there feeding the hungry.

I think there is a middle road with truth - that's what Buddha said. You might just call it an analytical approach, there are no absolutes in Scientology.
CofS Scientology is all absolutes it is the ultimate A=A.

I am on your side.
Really Wow:whistling:
 

A-non-non-anon

Patron with Honors
We are having SPs for lunch today.

The MEST universe is just a shadow play for the theta universe.

Sausage Pizza? Spicy Pasta? So much for your Comm Course, best pay another $200 for a do-over.

Also, give us proper dox on your allegations or you FLUNK

Also also, R6 symbolism
 

FinallyMe

Silver Meritorious Patron
--snip--
I think that the bottom line is that "the supreme test of a thetan is the ability to make things go right". Also Axiom 49, "become theta the solver".

---snip --

PLEASE step back a bit and recognize how LAME that position is! You sound just like Willie Nelson when he was in trouble because of income tax issues: "I'm going to keep doing it wrong until I like it that way."

"Make it go right" does NOT mean to keep doing whatever you're doing until suddenly it's working the way you want it to. That exercise pretty well falls into the definition of insanity. "Make it go right" DOES include "change the whole thing" to actually GET the result you were going for to begin with. If what you are doing (sticking with the insanity) does NOT get you where you wanted to go, then don't stick with the insanity - do something else.

Which is what the rest of us have done - some tried many things, many times to find the "right" path by using Scientology dictates. Some just left, recognizing that we could not abide by those dictates any longer. But we ALL discovered that following the Church of Scientology would NOT get us where we intended to go.

You're interpreting Ron's words, which you are not supposed to do. So quit using YOUR interpretation of policy that ONLY YOU and other Scientologists subscribe to. We don't.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
"Make it go right" does NOT mean to keep doing whatever you're doing until suddenly it's working the way you want it to. That exercise pretty well falls into the definition of insanity. "Make it go right" DOES include "change the whole thing" to actually GET the result you were going for to begin with. If what you are doing (sticking with the insanity) does NOT get you where you wanted to go, then don't stick with the insanity - do something else.

Which is what the rest of us have done - some tried many things, many times to find the "right" path by using Scientology dictates. Some just left, recognizing that we could not abide by those dictates any longer. But we ALL discovered that following the Church of Scientology would NOT get us where we intended to go.

Or, as with many of us indies -- that some of Scientology could get us part way, but we needed to use our own wiles to figure out what was missing for us.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
The next post I read after the one I wrote above is this one, quoted because I think it's applicable here:


Betrayal of Self.

The last few days have called to my attention something I discovered and undid for myself some many years ago. It is something I see evidenced on ESMB all the time among some.

It is a subtle thing: something we unwittingly did to ourselves when we first considered L. Ron Hubbard had greater wisdom than us personally, and we thus abandoned our own truths, power to know and personal certainty in favor of his.

It was the moment we individually became cultized and lost our own determinism and ability to discover and know in our own right, but instead became dependent on Hubbard’s doctrines.

Some are still hung in that moment of what is actually a betrayal of self: that moment of the ceding our own sovereignty to another; the loss of one’s own certainty.

Some on ESMB are free from it. Some don’t know they are in violent opposition to it, protesting it but still stuck there. Others are still in it, seeing his wisdom as the greatest of all to not be violated.

Personally, I feel we each have the right and duty to know for ourselves; to investigate, research, discover and come to our own certainties of what is.

In my view, to do anything else is a betrayal of self and of one’s own honor and sovereignty.

As a young man, I did that to myself, unwittingly. And I paid a heavy price for it . . . though the spiritual damage of it is now repaired and long gone, the lost opportunities caused by it are also gone and they may or may not be recovered.

Either way, it is a lesson learned, the knowledge of which I’d like to offer to my friends on ESMB.

RogerB
 

This is NOT OK !!!!

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thank you Roger B

Thank you for what you wrote above. While recognizing that my own responsibility for what happened in my life through total imersion in Scientology will be some sort of an EP, I'm still in the middle of the "process" and right now my favorite emotion is BLAME!:grouch:
 
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