Last Sunday

well you can't prove hubbard was a con man by me as i was never conned by him

i was challenged to examine his work and i did

i bought courses which were delivered as advertised and i received benefit which has continued to be of use for more than forty years

i refer all christians reading here to the ninth of the ten commandments and stae i am not going to bear any false witness against the man and i suggest serious christians hould consider whethr they might be accepting as true false witness against l ron hubbard as true

i also refer christians to his parting address, Mission Earth, which has a strong elegantly understated underlying theme and constitutes ron's confession

the piece is ron's fictionalized autobiography and though it overflows with gross pulp fictio flaws, it is also magnificently deft in it's virtues. begin by understanding he uses as a literary device thre alter egos; heller, gris and penwell...

you are hilarious commander. that you feel you were not conned is evidence that you were conned. uh, once i grew up i finally realized that everything he ever wrote was bad. horrible writer with stupid ideas. yes he could plagerize with the best of them, but the last time i tried to read any of his crap he came off as THIS IS THE WAY IT IS, and proceded to muddy the waters so that i couldn't understand it and moreover didn't want to understand it.

i get much more satisfaction reading what the founders of our great nation wrote.

For the record I do not think Hubbard was a con man.

And whether he was or wasn't is irrelevant.

It is impossible to know what a person's intentions really are.

I think Scientology is a deceptive pop-psychology cult.

But I think they are true believers, not con men.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Gib

Crusader
For the record I do not think Hubbard was a con man.

And whether he was or wasn't is irrelevant.

It is impossible to know what a person's intentions really are.

I think Scientology is a deceptive pop-psychology cult.

But I think they are true believers, not con men.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I agree and disagree.

I think he tried to "make it go right"

and I think he conned his whole way thru it.

As he said at the end, "I failed".

That is a con. He tried to make his con right.
 
I agree and disagree.

I think he tried to "make it go right"

and I think he conned his whole way thru it.

As he said at the end, "I failed".

That is a con. He tried to make his con right.

Yeah. He no doubt kept at it even after he knew it didn't work.

But I don't think it is just a scam to get people's money, although they do put a high importance on money into the organization.

I do really think that Hubbard was trying to produce Supermen in his own image and likeness.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Gib

Crusader
Yeah. He no doubt kept at it even after he knew it didn't work.

But I don't think it is just a scam to get people's money, although they do put a high importance on money into the organization.

I do really think that Hubbard was trying to produce Supermen in his own image and likeness
.

The Anabaptist Jacques

that's obvious. he said numerous times "you're wearing my hat" as HCO ES, HAS, even the god damn janitor.

It's all HUBBARD communications office. LOL

Just an extension of Hubbard.
 
For the record I do not think Hubbard was a con man.

And whether he was or wasn't is irrelevant.

It is impossible to know what a person's intentions really are.

I think Scientology is a deceptive pop-psychology cult.

But I think they are true believers, not con men.

The Anabaptist Jacques

yes, though i wouldn't label him a con man i do believe there is adequate reliable anecdotal material to believe he conned green paper rectangles out of many wallets

but...

i don't begrudge him a single penny he ever took in because i think he did some big time work on behalf of us churchly sorts and i think it's in first or second timothy where we are enjoined "not to bind the mouth of the kine..."
 

Winston Smith

Flunked Scientology
For the record I do not think Hubbard was a con man.

And whether he was or wasn't is irrelevant.

It is impossible to know what a person's intentions really are.

I think Scientology is a deceptive pop-psychology cult.

But I think they are true believers, not con men.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I suppose it is ok to think he was not a con man. But in my estimation he certainly was a very insecure person who demanded Nazi like devotion.
 
I suppose it is ok to think he was not a con man. But in my estimation he certainly was a very insecure person who demanded Nazi like devotion.

good to see you punching in on this thread winnie

i'm sure you were a fan of buckley's "firing line" and probably know he took the title of his show from some christian's admonition "you have to stay on the firing line" (do you know the attribution on that?)

and of course i am challenging crisschins to step up to the firing line here. i'm pressing for some COAS mojo here...

"if you don't like the news, go out and make some news of your own."

although they are not necessarily for everyone nor is the statement presented as indisputable, auditing and auditor training are good things

i have to believe i am not the only christian compelled by experience to affirm the subject of dianetics

THEREFORE:

since we generally are somewhat critical of what Co$ does with the subject it is submitted that The Christian Imperative demands of us that we do something better with the subject...
 

Winston Smith

Flunked Scientology
I just can't seem to figure out where to put this, so here is minor derail: King Obama signed up for a bronze plan on the website. I wonder if he gets to keep his doctor.
 
so...

have any of you crisschins read Mission Earth?

any of you examine ME?

ron punched out with a very simple, very clear, very strong direct christian statement in ME and it doesn't take years of study in the ivy covered halls of academe to see it; it can be deciphered with a captain midnight decoder ring out of a box of cracker jacks f'crissakes...
 

David C Gibbons

Ex-Scientology Peon
Commander Birdsong's question

Commander Birdsong's question is a good one..."i am calling on my fellow crisschins on this board to tell me what they think is a good/proper/correct christian attitude and stance toward l ron hubbard..."

To begin with, do we take the Old Testament approach or the new Testament one? Since most of us live in countries of laws that frowns on the indiscriminate slaughter of our enemies and their families, let's pass by some of the bloodier examples of the Old Testament. That leaves us with the teachings of Jesus and his apostles, mixed with the well-worn policies of the Roman Catholic Church. (One of the more enduring of the Christian sects, troubled though it may be at this time).

L. Ron Hubbard created a cult that has fancy words words cloaking rapacious and pitiless behavior. Almost all decent people who touch it end up poorer, and desolate in heart and mind. Hubbard claimed the status of religion for this travesty, so he could enrich himself, and avoid responsibility. His current successor, oblivious of the need to provide any sort of plausible personal hope to the faithful, has embarked on a course of total financial and spiritual impoverishment of the remaining Scientologists.

A Christian must first must bring succor to the suffering, and then act to render the evil powerless. In the case of Hubbard, and his successor, it is to bring the power of the law to bear upon Hubbard's creation and enterprises, to prevent further harm to its victims. To act to unmask the enterprise of Scientology, so that the people, and the State, can then end its activities. In the case of Hubbard, it would have then been to support any efforts to bring Hubbard and/or Miscavage to an accounting in a court of law. I don't think that the doctrine of "Just War" needs to be invoked - and that's something different than 'fair game'.

A Christian would also work to encourage Ex-Scientologists to look in their hearts and acknowledge the sins they committed against themselves and others while involved in Scientology. Those sins must be confessed, and something should be done to make things right, though the burden of some of the things done by Scientologists and Scientology are things that will have to be taken to the grave, and then to a final accounting.

I don't have the exact quote to hand, but let's go with this paraphrase: For Scientology to triumph, all that is needed is for good people to do nothing. Christians, and all other people of good faith, must boldly act to challenge pretenders to religion like Scientology. It may mean that valid religions may come under more careful scrutiny, but I believe that the real churches will be the better for it.

-----------

I was raised Roman Catholic, so the teachings of Rome color my perspective. How about it, Protestants, what'cha got?
 

Wants2Talk

Silver Meritorious Patron
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
 
Re: Commander Birdsong's question

Commander Birdsong's question is a good one..."i am calling on my fellow crisschins on this board to tell me what they think is a good/proper/correct christian attitude and stance toward l ron hubbard..."

To begin with, do we take the Old Testament approach or the new Testament one? Since most of us live in countries of laws that frowns on the indiscriminate slaughter of our enemies and their families, let's pass by some of the bloodier examples of the Old Testament. That leaves us with the teachings of Jesus and his apostles, mixed with the well-worn policies of the Roman Catholic Church. (One of the more enduring of the Christian sects, troubled though it may be at this time).

L. Ron Hubbard created a cult that has fancy words words cloaking rapacious and pitiless behavior. Almost all decent people who touch it end up poorer, and desolate in heart and mind. Hubbard claimed the status of religion for this travesty, so he could enrich himself, and avoid responsibility. His current successor, oblivious of the need to provide any sort of plausible personal hope to the faithful, has embarked on a course of total financial and spiritual impoverishment of the remaining Scientologists.

A Christian must first must bring succor to the suffering, and then act to render the evil powerless. In the case of Hubbard, and his successor, it is to bring the power of the law to bear upon Hubbard's creation and enterprises, to prevent further harm to its victims. To act to unmask the enterprise of Scientology, so that the people, and the State, can then end its activities. In the case of Hubbard, it would have then been to support any efforts to bring Hubbard and/or Miscavage to an accounting in a court of law. I don't think that the doctrine of "Just War" needs to be invoked - and that's something different than 'fair game'.

A Christian would also work to encourage Ex-Scientologists to look in their hearts and acknowledge the sins they committed against themselves and others while involved in Scientology. Those sins must be confessed, and something should be done to make things right, though the burden of some of the things done by Scientologists and Scientology are things that will have to be taken to the grave, and then to a final accounting.

I don't have the exact quote to hand, but let's go with this paraphrase: For Scientology to triumph, all that is needed is for good people to do nothing. Christians, and all other people of good faith, must boldly act to challenge pretenders to religion like Scientology. It may mean that valid religions may come under more careful scrutiny, but I believe that the real churches will be the better for it.

-----------

I was raised Roman Catholic, so the teachings of Rome color my perspective. How about it, Protestants, what'cha got?

what have we protestants got?

flaws...

when ratzo turned into benedict one of his first comments was "i'm not saying all protestants are going to hell mind you but protestantism has very serious flaws"

yes...

we do have flaws...

and most of the worst ones are copied from the RCC!!!

anyway...

THANK YOU poking your nose in here!

may more christians "christians" and crisschins follow suit!

to begin with DG, i don't suppose you'd be willing to consider whether your third paragraph might be somewhat judgemental would you?

and maybe less than accurate? very many people come out better than they were and just go on to other things...

but...

good news isn't news and we mostly hear from the squeaking wheels. although some to greater or lesser degree are playing the blame game and/or are exagerating very many have very real complaints. but even with these damage is coming from badly done tech or gross violations of policy and wrong applications of policy. and usually the problem is because of the red or green and white it's from the narsty barstids who are adept at weaseling into positions of power

i have invoked The Christian Imperative here and actually i'm very surprised and grateful i haven't been challenged about it's definition as it should be obvious already this is a major proposition of my polemic. as i'm sure many of you know there are many spiritual directors who are very pointed about it...

"you're now a christian so you must...!!!"

i'm not going to try to define it but i got a little vignette to illustrate it...

not long before all hell broke loose in my home in 1980 we were sitting around in the evening and kathie in one of her uncommon moments of candor looked at me and said "ya know... i have to complain about scientology. if i thought it worked i'd HAVE to do it."

anyone want to dispute there's something of The Christian Imperative there?

if...

auditing and auditor training are in fact good things

then...

would not The Christian Imperative compel at least respect for them and perhaps even an active interest?

not necessarily by all christians...

auditing and training are optional. ron's work is not the end-all be-all CoS zealots often try to present. many people live just, productive, healthy decent lives into their nineties and never even hear of hubbard's work. but it is something which i am personally certain and do contend not only has wide application is also safe and effective when used as directed
 
now paragraph five...

i was in and active three years dave, and i can't say i can come up to confess about. in san francisco i was an honest and ardent student training to be an auditor and then at fcdc i worked my butt off auditing and i've got a good witness right here on this thread; taj. he knew me well at the time and he's invited to tell us both of anything he thinks me culpable then...

now...

here's where the bite begins...

you ask what a christian should be doing to make things right...

and the pivotal question on which that rests is...

are auditing and auditor training good things...

or not?
 

Wants2Talk

Silver Meritorious Patron
BSong

Bumping for time to answer your sincere question.
Do you remember the poster of two lumberjacks...."This is the session!"?
 
Re: Commander Birdsong's question

Commander Birdsong's question is a good one..."i am calling on my fellow crisschins on this board to tell me what they think is a good/proper/correct christian attitude and stance toward l ron hubbard..."

To begin with, do we take the Old Testament approach or the new Testament one? Since most of us live in countries of laws that frowns on the indiscriminate slaughter of our enemies and their families, let's pass by some of the bloodier examples of the Old Testament. That leaves us with the teachings of Jesus and his apostles, mixed with the well-worn policies of the Roman Catholic Church. (One of the more enduring of the Christian sects, troubled though it may be at this time).

L. Ron Hubbard created a cult that has fancy words words cloaking rapacious and pitiless behavior. Almost all decent people who touch it end up poorer, and desolate in heart and mind. Hubbard claimed the status of religion for this travesty, so he could enrich himself, and avoid responsibility. His current successor, oblivious of the need to provide any sort of plausible personal hope to the faithful, has embarked on a course of total financial and spiritual impoverishment of the remaining Scientologists.

A Christian must first must bring succor to the suffering, and then act to render the evil powerless. In the case of Hubbard, and his successor, it is to bring the power of the law to bear upon Hubbard's creation and enterprises, to prevent further harm to its victims. To act to unmask the enterprise of Scientology, so that the people, and the State, can then end its activities. In the case of Hubbard, it would have then been to support any efforts to bring Hubbard and/or Miscavage to an accounting in a court of law. I don't think that the doctrine of "Just War" needs to be invoked - and that's something different than 'fair game'.

A Christian would also work to encourage Ex-Scientologists to look in their hearts and acknowledge the sins they committed against themselves and others while involved in Scientology. Those sins must be confessed, and something should be done to make things right, though the burden of some of the things done by Scientologists and Scientology are things that will have to be taken to the grave, and then to a final accounting.

I don't have the exact quote to hand, but let's go with this paraphrase: For Scientology to triumph, all that is needed is for good people to do nothing. Christians, and all other people of good faith, must boldly act to challenge pretenders to religion like Scientology. It may mean that valid religions may come under more careful scrutiny, but I believe that the real churches will be the better for it.

-----------

I was raised Roman Catholic, so the teachings of Rome color my perspective. How about it, Protestants, what'cha got?

just after i made my first response to this post i was on another thread and found out you did thirty years in; ten years for each one i was in. i'd like to know more about david c. gibbons and your story from inside. would you bump your new member intro and add to it? your basic writing skills are very good; this is a nice tight well composed essay and you're a gutsy up-front guy posting with your own name...

of course like most people you've thoroughly misunderstood the religious cloaking policy. CoS is designed to look like a rapacious mindbending scamming cult to cloak it's true religious nature...
 

David C Gibbons

Ex-Scientology Peon
Re: Commander Birdsong's question

just after i made my first response to this post i was on another thread and found out you did thirty years in; ten years for each one i was in. i'd like to know more about david c. gibbons and your story from inside. would you bump your new member intro and add to it? your basic writing skills are very good; this is a nice tight well composed essay and you're a gutsy up-front guy posting with your own name...

of course like most people you've thoroughly misunderstood the religious cloaking policy. CoS is designed to look like a rapacious mindbending scamming cult to cloak it's true religious nature...

Ah! A cunning ploy, disguising Scientology's true and deep religious roots underneath a very convincing veneer of "rapacious mind bending scamming cult"..

Thanks for the kind words about my scribbling - I have been working through my Scn programming slowly, and my essays and posts are one of the ways that I do that. I believe it is important to really work to make sure my posts here are clear and understandable - I can only hope some hapless Scientologist can find something in them to continue their own personal journey out of the cult. (They are already well started if they are reading ESMB posts)

I'll have to go back and review my new member intro - it's been a long time since I posted it...
 

David C Gibbons

Ex-Scientology Peon
SNIP
you ask what a christian should be doing to make things right...
and the pivotal question on which that rests is...
are auditing and auditor training good things...
or not?

OK, Commander - The following is my take, but be mindful that I never got much technical training, unlike many others here. First off, I believe the "Bridge" was set up to be a money-spinner.

IF auditing was broken free from "The Bridge" and 'Sec Checks', AND a total lack of confidentiality, AND if people were only run on stuff that actually concerned and interested them, AND if past life stuff and dating was left off, AND if the focus was on helping people with here and now problems, AND if auditing was considered just one more tool in a broad toolbox of possible therapies, THEN auditing may be a good thing. Double-blind studies, etc, performed by people who don't have a stake in the success or failure of the Hubbard auditing therapy method might make me more sanguine about its true value to mankind.

Another problem is that any beneficial effects of Scn training/processing have always been framed in Scientology terms, and largely within the Scientology culture. The placebo effect isn't accounted for, and neither is the simple healing/theraputic effect of just having someone carefully listen non-judgementally to one's griping, thoughts, concerns, etc.

I do believe the e-meter can sometime detect a person's physiological reactions to thought, but it is only a rough indicator, and people using them can miss things. Newer technology such as computerized meters might help, and getting rid of the damn cans and switching to something more reliable and less tiring, like wrist straps might make the instrument easier to use.

In the end, Auditing and the training for same is intertwined with Scientology, and that contaminates it with such negatives that I misdoubt that most sane people would consider it. After Scientology falls, perhaps we'll get a chance to see if the basic concepts of auditing are useful enough to keep the method alive as a valid therapy.
 
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