Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 2013

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

I hope the practice of disconnection continues, they create more problems for themselves through the use of it. Who the hell wants a more acceptable version of the same thing? Scam is still a scam.

I hope they disconnect themselves to oblivion.

:clap:

The same with Miscavige.

He is the BEST thing for the downfall of Scientology.

I have had a DVD from the BASICS event from 2008. I never watched, but I was curious how goofy it was, so I watched some of it last night.

He is a bullshitter on the level of Hubbard. He just talks nonsense, spins absurdities, makes endless absurd statements, and is just a total ass.

He is a Scientology KSW "purist", pushed to an insane degree, and as long as he is there forwarding the extremist view of unadulterated KSW Scientology, things MUST get worse as the footbullets continue unabated.
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

just responding to a bunch of posts... I just want to hear "I did fucked up shit" one time from the MRs.

I did fucked up shit. We pretty much all did. It's not a personal vendetta against them, but the reassigning everything to DM, and at one point, (thank goodness it seems to have lessened) seemed to be a personal PR campaign for themselves. I'm not even saying their cult time didn't create that monster... I'm sure they were also so fucked up with thought reform, and I have NO idea if they were wonderful before or after all this happened in their lives. I did some things I feel HORRIBLE about in the cult--stuff I never would have done without that influence, but I do admit I did it. For some reason, I just never have seen either of them say they feel bad about the fucked-up stuff they did. They just said how evil Davey was... I just want to see that they do have some sort of regret or sadness, or compassion.

I just want to see for once, "omg, I was an asshole", and it could even be completely because they were under thought reform of the cult. I'm just tired of "DM was the asshole". My problem is that SO much that seems to have been put out int the past is very memorable of the PR "tek" from the cult. That's to be expected, since that was their life, but I gotta admit it can trigger some past stuff, and my BS meter is now a lot higher and I just go... hmmmm...

why the hell have I never seen that they feel badly about what they did (and I'm someone who is fine with being wrong on anything, so if there is something with serious remorse, feel free to post it... gotta admit, I tuned out from a lot of what they said after reading too many posts, because it just mimicked cult rhetoric).

Hell, I'd have dinner with either of them and hopefully it'd be a nice exchange, but in these "internets", yeah, a lot of what this duo has said has rubbed me wrongly. And they have the freedom to post their opinion, and likewise, I also do.

I'm fine with them being people and hopefully recovering, but it's the weird sort of 'saintdom' that seemed to arise around them, and their spouting of what I felt was just "cult, version 2.0" that seemed to be coming out when they first broke into media that raised my hackles.
 

iHateDuplicity

Patron with Honors
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

I'm fine with them being people and hopefully recovering, but it's the weird sort of 'saintdom' that seemed to arise around them, and their spouting of what I felt was just "cult, version 2.0" that seemed to be coming out when they first broke into media that raised my hackles.

Clamicide - thanks for your reasoned response.

Just want to say that I have no "saintdom" attached to the "MRs" as you call Rinder and Rathbun, and I haven't personally observed too much of that. A few postings praising their efforts to expose Cof$ insanities, but that's about it. And you may have noticed that both of them, especially Rathbun, have changed their tune quite a bit when it comes to praising the tech and LRH. Rinder has the right to continue to practice independent Scientology as do many on this board and I don't think that needs to be held against him.

I just wanted to make the point that they are easy targets within and outside the Cof$ because of their prior positions and that puts them in the very unenviable position of being shot at a lot more than the rest of us. So I think they deserve to be cut some slack and not hounded by those of us who know what Cof$ is capable of and who is targeting them specifically way more than it will ever come after us.

See Tony's latest posting today (http://tonyortega.org/2013/08/01/le...scientology-fair-gaming-of-critics-is-way-up/) if any question about what I'm talking about.

That being said, I really DON'T want to come across as some kind of apologist for either of them because you do have a point that neither of them have ever issued any public apology that I'm aware of and such a thing would probably be appropriate. But actions speak louder than words and their actions clearly indicate that they are very much against what they used to do and are doing everything they can to fight back against the corruption and duplicity that is the Cof$.
 
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Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

b
Clamicide - thanks for your reasoned response.

Just want to say that I have no "saintdom" attached to the "MRs" as you call Rinder and Rathbun, and I haven't personally observed too much of that. A few postings praising their efforts to expose Cof$ insanities, but that's about it. And you may have noticed that both of them, especially Rathbun, have changed their tune quite a bit when it comes to praising the tech and LRH. Rinder has the right to continue to practice independent Scientology as do many on this board and I don't think that needs to be held against him.

I just wanted to make the point that they are easy targets within and outside the Cof$ because of their prior positions and that puts them in the very unenviable position of being shot at a lot more than the rest of us. So I think they deserve to be cut some slack and not hounded by those of us who know what Cof$ is capable of and who is targeting them specifically way more than it will ever come after us.

See Tony's latest posting today (http://tonyortega.org/2013/08/01/le...scientology-fair-gaming-of-critics-is-way-up/) if any question about what I'm talking about.

I'm with Clammy. They haven't paid their dues outside the cult - they went from privileged status inside it to privileged status in the Indie community. If Marty ever responds to the 13 year old letter from RVY (and he's had plenty of time to deal with that) , I'll change my mind. In that he does not have to admit to any legal wrongdoing, just that he acted like a despicable human being.

Why would he have to do that publicly? Because he's been using his apostate status to win friends and influence people publicly. The MRs have gotta take the good with the bad. I know a lot of exes like Clammy have done things they aren't proud of (who among us hasn't?), and that causes them, unlike Clammy, to cut the MRs some slack. I respect that. But as an outsider, I don't agree. I look on them the way I look on turncoat KGB agents from the Cold War who never expressed regret for that agency's repression of their own people. Useful for information, but loathesome human beings whose word needs to be verified at every step.

It's like the posts on the other thread where people said that DM might have turned out differently in a different envoronment. They how come he was the big turd that floated to the top of this particular septic tank? My hypothesis, circumstantially supported by what little I can observe, is that the man is a sociopath. Early on he figured out Ron was a fraud from close contact with him, and instead of using his knowledge to break the pyschic hold the cult has, he used to to increase that hold for his own enrichment. Out in another environment, he'd be a Bernie Madhoff or some other cheating schemer, because the man's conscience is broken at the neurological level.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Responds

Co$/scientology response to Paul Haggis' letter in support of Leah Remini here: http://www.businessinsider.com/scientology-response-to-paul-haggis-2013-7



Thoughts?

JB

If you want to understand their claims of expansion, just get the list of orgs from the Scientology org locator site. Call a few orgs and missions at random and see how many even have anybody answer the phone. In the past, I've called mission numbers, and gotten voicemail of some business.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

I'll bet David finds TC's ass easily in the dark

TomCruiseDavidMiscavige.jpg


118. During the 1980's, Miscavige befriended the actor Tom Cruise and they spend a lot of time together on the Hemet base. Their special chef, Sinar Parman, would prepare them fancy meals. Often they would hang out alone in the space designated for L. Ron Hubbard on the Clipper Ship we built in the desert. This space had a small kitchen, a little dining room, a little bar and a bed. They also had the exclusive use of the officers lounge. On other occasions Miscavige and Cruise would work out in the expensive gym we built for exclusive and restricted use. No one else was allowed to talk to Tom Cruise when he was on the base. One time one of the gardeners spoke to him and this caused a major flap on the base. At Gold, Miscavige is known by his initials DM and Tom Cruise by his initials TC. From the late 1980's until I left the Gold, Tom Cruise was provided a personal and exclusive apartment and storage facilities by the Scientology organization and at Scientology's expense. Tom Cruise kept two Yamaha motorcycles, a Mercedes Benz automobile and a large motor home at Gold. These were stored in what used to be Hubbard's garage and parking lot. Obviously, Miscavige and Cruise have developed a special relationship. One is a young world domineering celebrity. The other is a young domineering cult leader who seeks to 'clear' the world and to rule it according to Scientology beliefs and practices.
-- deposition Andre Tabayoyan

Note, they spent a lot of time in a cozy little space with one bed.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

Note, they spent a lot of time in a cozy little space with one bed.

Unless they are bi, it just doesn't compute. They both obviously like women.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

Unless they are bi, it just doesn't compute. They both obviously like women.

How many men and women have been married for decades, then suddenly decide to "come out" as gay/lesbian? I've heard of many. It's not that they suddenly switched from straight to gay, it's that they were bi all along and have declared their primary preference has changed.

Back in college, I had a bi girlfriend. It was interesting, while it lasted.

There are more bi people out there than most people realize. Google "on the down low".
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

How many men and women have been married for decades, then suddenly decide to "come out" as gay/lesbian? I've heard of many. It's not that they suddenly switched from straight to gay, it's that they were bi all along and have declared their primary preference has changed.

Back in college, I had a bi girlfriend. It was interesting, while it lasted.

There are more bi people out there than most people realize. Google "on the down low".

Not entirely, I think many of them were living a lie and got tired of it.

That what I expect to happen to JT, though he may be bisexual, as well. Don't really care, except that he allows $SN to promote it's crap.

TC gives a different vibe. But I could be totally wrong, since so much of his stuff has been filtered through PR - athough they haven't been perfect at hiding the crazy.

I haven't seen enough of DM to get a handle on anything other than "sociopath" and "batshit crazy".
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Leah Remini Retaliation? Suddenly, Scientology “Fair Gaming” Of Critics Is Way Up

Tony Ortega: Leah Remini Retaliation? Suddenly, Scientology “Fair Gaming” Of Critics Is Way Up
http://tonyortega.org/2013/08/01/le...scientology-fair-gaming-of-critics-is-way-up/

Excerpt:
Since it was revealed that Leah Remini was breaking away from the Church of Scientology, her family — and many of us observers — have been anticipating that Scientology will do its thing and go on the warpath.

Now, we have evidence that a massive campaign of Scientology “Fair Game” has begun — aimed not at Remini and her family, but at longtime critics who have in the past couple of weeks seen a huge increase in harassment.

Karen de la Carriere was pranked by someone who called the Los Angeles City Health Department on her. Marc and Claire Headley are being stalked by private investigators again, but this time it was so brazen, their children were targeted with surveillance while out playing. Mike Rinder, meanwhile, has undergone a sleazy new round of online targeting and in-real-life snooping. And we know of several others who are also suddenly being watched and harassed.
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

From Tony Ortega's comments.

http://tonyortega.org/2013/08/01/le...aming-of-critics-is-way-up/#comment-984447778
Mike Rinder 24 minutes ago

I do not comment here primarily because I have my own blog which consumes considerable time and whatever I want to say I pretty much say there.

However, I think it is important to note for the readers of this blog that there are two other people who should be added to this story. But they are not mentioned because Tony does not want to be the center of attention or seem to be seeking sympathy. Believe me, when the cult refers to the "unemployed bloggers on the fringe of the internet" the first name on their list is Tony Ortega. And when your name is at the top of their list, so is your family.

A lot of commenters have offered their very heartfelt, and much appreciated words of support for Karen & Jeff, the Headleys and me and my family, but I don't want any of you to forget that it ain't all butterflies and rainbows for Tony and his significant other. That he does not want to provide any details is his prerogative, but the fact of what they have had to endure (you can draw your own conclusions as to specifics based on what he has reported here about others) should not be overlooked.

I know from personal experience that the support of those who read his blog, commenters and silent readers alike, is a source of enormous comfort and strength for him and his significant other, just as it is for me and my family, Karen and the Headleys.
 
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

Clamicide - thanks for your reasoned response.

Just want to say that I have no "saintdom" attached to the "MRs" as you call Rinder and Rathbun, and I haven't personally observed too much of that. A few postings praising their efforts to expose Cof$ insanities, but that's about it. And you may have noticed that both of them, especially Rathbun, have changed their tune quite a bit when it comes to praising the tech and LRH. Rinder has the right to continue to practice independent Scientology as do many on this board and I don't think that needs to be held against him.

I just wanted to make the point that they are easy targets within and outside the Cof$ because of their prior positions and that puts them in the very unenviable position of being shot at a lot more than the rest of us. So I think they deserve to be cut some slack and not hounded by those of us who know what Cof$ is capable of and who is targeting them specifically way more than it will ever come after us.

See Tony's latest posting today (http://tonyortega.org/2013/08/01/le...scientology-fair-gaming-of-critics-is-way-up/) if any question about what I'm talking about.

That being said, I really DON'T want to come across as some kind of apologist for either of them because you do have a point that neither of them have ever issued any public apology that I'm aware of and such a thing would probably be appropriate. But actions speak louder than words and their actions clearly indicate that they are very much against what they used to do and are doing everything they can to fight back against the corruption and duplicity that is the Cof$.

It would probably be appropriate to take out the word "probably"in your second to last sentence. On the last sentence you say actions speak louder than words. I think an apology is what is known as a "speech act". Just saying the words is the performance of an act. An act which is noticeable for NOT having been performed. Ironically the lack of those words and that act speaks very loudly.
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

I have a lot to do today, so this is a quick reply. These folks have inside info that they still have not brought to light. I can COMPLETELY understand why it would freak them to do so and actually don't want to "burn them at the stake" for not doing so which I have seen others want, but that they have gone out there and promoted themselves and spoke how they have--- it does get to me at times that they haven't come clean. I disagree that they have 'done everything' to bring down the cult. I don't understand the celeb status.

And, btw, I originally didn't post under my own name because I DID have inside info on some of the incredibly evil crap these two were part and parcel of back in the day--and so, I was nervous about speaking out as an ex. Horrifically evil shit went down when they were at a place where I cannot fathom that they didn't know about it, and from what I've seen, had a huge hand in... so, yeah, I can't just smile and be happy with their new identities where I don't see anything where they feel badly about what went down. I think the whole "omg, I'm being persecuted by the Squirrelbusters" that Marty put out (and don't get me wrong, that was insane and stupid and something nobody should have to deal with) when he had personally ordered stuff in the past that... well, fuck. Maybe someday he will admit it. And, if it turns out that he is a decent human being, then I will be the first person to say, "it sucks that you did what you did because you got fucked up by a cult."

At this point, I've said enough that pretty much any idiot, if they cared, could piece together my identity. The biggest reason I don't use my name at this point is because my ex sometimes talks to me... and he's the one contact with my son who is in the Sea Org and disconnected, and if I did just use my name, then it'd be too easy for him to be forced to never speak to me again and I'd lose all contact and any info as to what is going on with my son. Also, I just have other stuff I do and write, and I prefer that the first thing that comes up if you google me isn't all this stuff. It might be the wrong call, and perhaps I'd make a little $ if I did just really connect up my real name with my identity as an ex and not write about my experiences for free.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

[video=youtube;J4TbprmEeQA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4TbprmEeQA[/video]
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

Not entirely, I think many of them were living a lie and got tired of it.

That what I expect to happen to JT, though he may be bisexual, as well. Don't really care, except that he allows $SN to promote it's crap.

TC gives a different vibe. But I could be totally wrong, since so much of his stuff has been filtered through PR - athough they haven't been perfect at hiding the crazy.

I haven't seen enough of DM to get a handle on anything other than "sociopath" and "batshit crazy".

DM's tendency to beat up other guys up at Int, in combination with some other things, just gives me a vibe that the beatings satisfy some homoerotic BDSM fantasies for him. Just a feeling I get from what we hear, and more importantly, what we DON'T hear about DM doing.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

DM's tendency to beat up other guys up at Int, in combination with some other things, just gives me a vibe that the beatings satisfy some homoerotic BDSM fantasies for him. Just a feeling I get from what we hear, and more importantly, what we DON'T hear about DM doing.

Made a fake DM profile once on a BDSM profile side, Got lols from the ones that knw it was a joke and some serious intresed men alsoo
 

iHateDuplicity

Patron with Honors
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

IThese folks have inside info that they still have not brought to light. I can COMPLETELY understand why it would freak them to do so and actually don't want to "burn them at the stake" for not doing so which I have seen others want, but that they have gone out there and promoted themselves and spoke how they have--- it does get to me at times that they haven't come clean. I disagree that they have 'done everything' to bring down the cult.

Again, I really appreciate you calm and rational responses.

I can only operate on the data that I have and I really appreciate you giving me more because it helps to evaluate my position. Obviously you were higher up in the org structure and more involved in things at a level I wasn't. I don't have the slightest idea who you are based on what you are saying here. We both have similar reasons for not revealing who we really are and I totally respect that so I'm not asking for more data. But if you have personal knowledge of further wrong-doings by these guys that they haven't made public, I can totally see why there would be resentment.

I guess if I did know that kind of thing, I would be in direct contact with them to push/encourage/demand that they come clean on everything. You may already have done that. What do I know? I'm big on full disclosure - which is ironic given that I won't disclose much of anything about myself right now.

We have all been put in a pretty weird place by this crazy cult, haven't we?
 
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201


118. During the 1980's, Miscavige befriended the actor Tom Cruise and they spend a lot of time together on the Hemet base. Their special chef, Sinar Parman, would prepare them fancy meals. Often they would hang out alone in the space designated for L. Ron Hubbard on the Clipper Ship we built in the desert. This space had a small kitchen, a little dining room, a little bar and a bed. They also had the exclusive use of the officers lounge. On other occasions Miscavige and Cruise would work out in the expensive gym we built for exclusive and restricted use. No one else was allowed to talk to Tom Cruise when he was on the base. One time one of the gardeners spoke to him and this caused a major flap on the base. At Gold, Miscavige is known by his initials DM and Tom Cruise by his initials TC. From the late 1980's until I left the Gold, Tom Cruise was provided a personal and exclusive apartment and storage facilities by the Scientology organization and at Scientology's expense. Tom Cruise kept two Yamaha motorcycles, a Mercedes Benz automobile and a large motor home at Gold. These were stored in what used to be Hubbard's garage and parking lot. Obviously, Miscavige and Cruise have developed a special relationship. One is a young world domineering celebrity. The other is a young domineering cult leader who seeks to 'clear' the world and to rule it according to Scientology beliefs and practices.
-- deposition Andre Tabayoyan

Note, they spent a lot of time in a cozy little space with one bed.

i forget chap and ver but it does say in scripture "God is no respecter of persons"
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Co$ Response

I'll just add that The Hollywood Reporter posted Mr. Haggis' letter just over 7 hours ago and the Co$/scientology response was posted to BusinessInsider almost an hour ago.

From the time Mr. Haggis' letter hit the net to the time Co$/scientology's response appeared 6 hours passed.

That's a long time for an angry little dude to turn various shades of purple, eh?

JB
He's turning violet and violent.
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Leah Remini - Paul Haggis' Letter of Support - Scientology Fails Again - July 201

Again, I really appreciate you calm and rational responses.

I can only operate on the data that I have and I really appreciate you giving me more because it helps to evaluate my position. Obviously you were higher up in the org structure and more involved in things at a level I wasn't. I don't have the slightest idea who you are based on what you are saying here. We both have similar reasons for not revealing who we really are and I totally respect that so I'm not asking for more data. But if you have personal knowledge of further wrong-doings by these guys that they haven't made public, I can totally see why there would be resentment.

I guess if I did know that kind of thing, I would be in direct contact with them to push/encourage/demand that they come clean on everything. You may already have done that. What do I know? I'm big on full disclosure - which is ironic given that I won't disclose much of anything about myself right now.

We have all been put in a pretty weird place by this crazy cult, haven't we?

I'm still just not physically doing well enough where I feel I can give a totally cogent reply to this and do it justice. So, not ignoring it. I will try to reply later, but what I can say at the moment, is I heard their names and stories of things they'd been involved in, long before their names started peppering the boards. And stories coming from different people who didn't know others told me things all lined up. It's awful--and it's things from people who didn't do ESMB as part of their healing--people from different echelons who just felt destroyed that they took part in some of the things that went on.

It's also the being wary of not seeing real remorse, because one thing that I noticed while still in (that I stupidly figured would get fixed with policy or ethics or tech), was that although there were some nice people that were the exception--those who rose up the ranks seemed mostly like they were either complete assholes before they joined and so it was natural and easy for them to continue that way, or they became an asshole out of survival. So, I have a bit of a bias when I see their 'ranks', and don't feel any desire to bow or worship them because they once had high-level posts and left--

The people I'm talking about felt so awful that they may never tell their stories publicly and moved on in other ways. So MRs broadcasting just rubbed me, because of those I saw who were so broken having gone through that time and the things that went on and were repulsed by how they felt they stopped behaving as decent human beings.

And cult-hopping is a thing that happens, and so when I saw what seemed to be a new cult created by them as the answer to leaving, I flinched.
 
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