Leaving Scientology

[fishdaddy]

A lot of us have friends and family still on the “inside.” We’d like to encourage them to start looking outside the bubble and start questioning things that they are told. There have been a lot of discussions as to how to best accomplish that.

I do know that more and more Scientologists are looking on the internet, despite OSA telling them not to. Sometimes they read my bloghttp://counterfeitdreams.blogspot.com, and contact me, so I know they are out there and looking.

I’ve been looking for good places to direct people, and I’ve recently found a decent one, a blog called “Leaving Scientology: A Guide for the Disillusioned,” http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com.

It appears to be written by someone recently out, and someone familiar with Flag, possibly an OT VII or OT VIII. I don’t agree with everything they write - they still think Hubbard and “the tech” are valid and Miscavige messed it up.

But that may be an advantage – most Scientologists who are wavering are ready to look at abuse and lies by management, but not yet ready to seriously question Hubbard and the “tech.” They might not read sites that contain shrill attacks on Hubbard. But they might well read this blog.

For a Scientologist newly questioning their Scientology involvement, it might provide a good starting point. And for a Scientologist applying the “Doubt formula,” there is even a post about FULLY applying it – including inspecting the Church’s ACTUAL statistics and intentions.

I’m going to link to this blog from my own blog, and I’d encourage anyone else to do so. If you are in contact with current Scientologists and the opportunity presents itself, I’d give them the link.

Fish

 

[Gadfly]

It appears to be written by someone recently out, and someone familiar with Flag, possibly an OT VII or OT VIII. I don’t agree with everything they write - they still think Hubbard and “the tech” are valid and Miscavige messed it up.

But that may be an advantage – most Scientologists who are wavering are ready to look at abuse and lies by management, but not yet ready to seriously question Hubbard and the “tech.” They might not read sites that contain shrill attacks on Hubbard. But they might well read this blog.
Fish

It is probably true that people have to "get away" in gradients. It is usually not too difficult to start seeing how nuts the organization is. Once a person gets some of THAT under the belt, then it becomes easier to question other things.

I don't think it is helpful to try to get people inside to "see all the bad" in one fell swoop. It actually works against the process. Get them out like the Church got them in. Little by little by little.

Find ONE thing that he or she can see that is nuts about the Church, about the Sea Org, about Miscavige, about GAT, and drive that home. Then find another, and another. Use ARC against them. Make it real how something is "bad" or "screwy" (there are no lack of examples). Get his or her agreement. Bring about an understanding of how some aspect of the Church organization is entirely nuts (Fair game, OSA tactics, PR as lying, LRH's contrived history of himself, etc). Then, build on that until a whole new edifice of understanding has been erected involving a fresh critical view of the subject of Scientology and LRH.

 

[Feral]

Good on you Fish,

We have had phenomenal success in Australia with a similar gradient and we used the "Friendsoflrh" site a lot, till it was taken down.

I'm glad someone with your marketing experience is endorsing this approach as the 'staunch tech haters' have given us a lot of stick for our approach.

Good to have you here and I'm glad your not in any serious trouble for that violent streak. I know how you creative, artistic types are known for your rough treatment of the more gentle dictatorial folk about the place.

 

[Terril park]

A lot of us have friends and family still on the “inside.” We’d like to encourage them to start looking outside the bubble and start questioning things that they are told. There have been a lot of discussions as to how to best accomplish that.

I do know that more and more Scientologists are looking on the internet, despite OSA telling them not to. Sometimes they read my bloghttp://counterfeitdreams.blogspot.com, and contact me, so I know they are out there and looking.

I’ve been looking for good places to direct people, and I’ve recently found a decent one, a blog called “Leaving Scientology: A Guide for the Disillusioned,” http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com.

It appears to be written by someone recently out, and someone familiar with Flag, possibly an OT VII or OT VIII. I don’t agree with everything they write - they still think Hubbard and “the tech” are valid and Miscavige messed it up.

But that may be an advantage – most Scientologists who are wavering are ready to look at abuse and lies by management, but not yet ready to seriously question Hubbard and the “tech.” They might not read sites that contain shrill attacks on Hubbard. But they might well read this blog.

For a Scientologist newly questioning their Scientology involvement, it might provide a good starting point. And for a Scientologist applying the “Doubt formula,” there is even a post about FULLY applying it – including inspecting the Church’s ACTUAL statistics and intentions.

I’m going to link to this blog from my own blog, and I’d encourage anyone else to do so. If you are in contact with current Scientologists and the opportunity presents itself, I’d give them the link.

Fish

You in contact with the former data chief Anna Marie Woodward?

She may be helpful.

 

[Justice League]

Something real

Hey Fishdaddy, definitely agree with what you have said. I guess if we all look at our own experiences with how we got out that would help a lot. For me it took around 3 years to go from on-lines and "gung ho" to off lines and questioning the validity of everything. The catalyst for me however was others close to me leaving and how I was supposed to now suddenly think that these people were bad. I think this is a huge button for others, especially considering the amount of people leaving the church these days. I was thinking of going along the lines of "is it really that all these people who were your close friends and family have suddenly gone out-ethics/turned PTS/SP/Gone off the rails?" I think pushing the fact that we are still the same people they once loved and it's not us that have changed but that they have been made to change their viewpoint on us because someone else dictated it. For some crazy reason I was willing to go along with the craziness of management under the guise of "greatest good", I kept telling myself even though it was bad we were still achieving good things and this was the only thing that I could do to "save mankind" So for me, the craziness aspect wasn't enough to get me out. Start threatening my relationship with people I love however and
I think most people still in would have at least one person they know who has been declared/left/caused some trouble.
Just my thoughts but I definitely agree on the gradient theory as it does take a while to get used to the new data you find out
Anyone good with mass e-mail campaigns?!

 

[Wisened One]

Good gradient, Fish!

I know in my case, it took me yeeeears to take a look at the notion that lrh and the tech might be bad and/or lower tech good, upper tech bad kinda thing.

It IS/was easier to walk out with that mindset for me (Tech and lrh good, rtc/dm bad) then I went from there.

I'm even fine with Freezone and other similar forms of counselling (Idenics, Knowledgism, etc). At least it's cheaper, seems to be full of more honest people who truly want to help others (altho I never found an auditor or indivudual scn who didn't want to either, but ya'll know what I mean), and even provides some meausure of relief. No one can balk too much at that, ya know?

I think now what with the SP Times article and Anon, that more and more scn's are looking online and thinking for themselves. Shoot, one of my 'in' friends let me do a Tarot Reading the other day! So...perhaps some are becoming more bendy scn's if you will, lol

 

[Kathy (ImOut)]

I'm with WO, I couldn't leave originally thinking LRH and the tech was wrong/bad. Clambake scared the crap out of me with some of the stuff I read there.

But after a couple of years, I was so ready to have more info about the tech and LRH not being "right".

Yes, a gradient is so needed to leave, in my opinion.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

This is a really excellent and valuable thread, Jeff. (Hey I think we know each other from DK, dude!)

It has been quite a unique challenge to deal with all the family and friends that I originally got in....I must have done a damn good job because man.... THEY ARE REALLY CRAZY-GLUED IN. Includes brothers, sisters, parents, kids, friends....oh hell, i confess, I did 'em all. (shit!!!!!!!!)

Well, now they are forever indebted and cannot thank me enough. Life works in divinely ironic OPPOSITES.... An ever changing vista of things you KNOW to be true which turn out to be UTTER LIES and the DAMNED EVIL LIES you have rejected with every ounce of your soul turning out (eventually) to be the highest and most gracefully happy TRUTHS.

Wow, what a fascinating thing life is!

So, now they are all wondering why I am not doing the precious Bridge, why I am distant and don't come to events to scream Hip-Hip-Hooray with all the other parishoners. There are sooooooooo many unasked and unstated things when I speak to any of them.

Under the surface everyone follows a "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" strategy. No one wants to trigger me to say something that they will be ethically obligated to report to Ethics. No one wants to be the snitch that blows the whistle and ends up with a Declare/Disconnection order from a family member or life-long friend. BUT EVERYONE KNOWS. It is ludicrous that the experts in communication that claim they will salvage the entire Galaxy are terrified to communicate.

So I am always looking for ways to open small fissures or cracks in their thinking. It is just absolutely REMARKABLE that they are obligated by church law to think that something is very WRONG with me.

It is inconceivable and illegal for them to have the thought that....perhaps....just maybe there is something RIGHT with me that I am not involved any more.

I could tell some fascinating stories about my conversations with active zealots...maybe I will in the posts ahead.

But thanks for getting this thread started. Undoing the hardened concrete thinking that Scn overwhelms a person's natural, curious, inquiring thought process with is a fast and startling way to see the immensity of mental damage that they have suffered.

In reality, the mentally "conditioned" Scientologist is many echelons below normal Homo Sapien. On the spectrum they are not that far from the Coolade concession. (probably Scn is the only cult that would CHARGE a "fixed donation" for the Coolade! lol)

 

[Gadfly]

Under the surface everyone follows a "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" strategy. No one wants to trigger me to say something that they will be ethically obligated to report to Ethics. No one wants to be the snitch that blows the whistle and ends up with a Declare/Disconnection order from a family member or life-long friend. BUT EVERYONE KNOWS. It is ludicrous that the experts in communication that claim they will salvage the entire Galaxy are terrified to communicate.

Wow. Someone else who has been there! It used to amaze me how all of these Church members would tiptoe on eggshells, being entirely frantic with NOT saying anything wrong. The irony of "communication is the universal solvent" existing right along with dedicated Church members who were on a very heavy-duty suppressed communication almost at all times, was just so weird to watch.

I would constantly note to myself while observing this incredibly obvious dichotomy, "and THIS is the Road to Spiritual Freedom???? I don't think so."

Great observation!

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Wow. Someone else who has been there! It used to amaze me how all of these Church members would tiptoe on eggshells, being entirely frantic with NOT saying anything wrong. The irony of "communication is the universal solvent" existing right along with dedicated Church members who were on a very heavy-duty suppressed communication almost at all times, was just so weird to watch.

I would constantly note to myself while observing this incredibly obvious dichotomy, "and THIS is the Road to Spiritual Freedom???? I don't think so."

Great observation!

Thx!

Well, Scientology is definitely on the "Road to Total Spiritual Freedom."

Scientology is a destination. It's just that it's the opposite direction than freedom and the chronically obedient Scientologists are furiously walking in the wrong direction.

Right road, wrong direction. Scientologists are marching, chanting "FREEDOM!"

What a sight. They are marching towards SLAVERY but yelling the advertising copy they read in Scientology promotion. (kind of reminds me of the sign outside of German concentration camps that read "Arbeit macht frei". "Work shall set you Free!"

Maybe that's why Scn is so frantic about the stats, stats, stats, now, now, now. They need some way to distract parishoners from looking at which direction the arrows on that road are pointing.

 

[everfree]

Thanks for the resource. Anthing that will get Scnists to look at the actual operations of their "church" is good.

Thanks also for your amazing flying scissor kick. Legendary.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

scientology-cult.com

Hi Fishdaddy! Thanks for sharing the information about those two websites. I will put it to good use with my friend. Hope you are doing fine, how's the writing going?

For everybody, there is also this interesting website with lots of insider informative and critical articles written by several authors based on their personal experiences and observations, having been in church management for years.
It is: www.scientology-cult.com Check it out, when you have time. Here is a sample (fair use under U.S. copywrite law-quoting in a review)

Quote-
Is Everyone Suppressive?
Did you know?
Does it strike you as odd that 49 out of 50 staff members from the last organization that L. Ron Hubbard personally ran himself in St Hill, England (known as "Old Saint Hill") have been declared "suppressive persons" by David Miscavige and kicked out of Scientology forever? LRH said 2 1/2 percent of the population is suppressive. But according to David Miscavige, demonstrated by his own actual statistics, 98% of the population is suppressive. I used to wonder why so many senior Scientologists got declared. Then it happened to many of my friends. And finally to me. I don't wonder any more. Consider too, that many of these individuals had a husband or wife, sons or daughters whom they had brought into Scientology. So once they were declared, they never saw those friends or family again. Here is the list (thanks to Pierre Ethier who logged many hours to research and verify these amazing facts and who graciously made this information available):

LRH Executive Director
Philip Quirino LRH Comm Living under guard in reclusive retirement home
Pat Bloomberg Dissem Sec DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Church Leadership)
Peter Hemery HCO Secretary DECLARED SP Personal Friend of LRH
Mike Rigby Dir Accounts DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Ken Urquhart LRH Pers Comm DECLARED SP LRH Butler, LRH Pers Comm for 15 years (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Joyce Popham LRH Pers Sec DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Len Regenass: HCO Area Sec DECLARED SP
Joan McNocher: D/Guardian DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Dalene Regenass Org E.S DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Robin Hancocks Deputy HCO Executive Sec DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Frank Freedman D/Qual DECLARED SP Clear #127 Class VIII (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Betty James Ad Council Chairman DECLARED SP (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
John McMaster SHSBC Course Supervisor DECLARED SP FIRST CLEAR
Otto Roos Ad Council DECLARED SP Clear #25 One of the original LRH trained Class XII (completed A-E of a prior Declare. But Re-Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Pam Pearcy Ad Council DECLARED SP Clear #211 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Reg Sharpe LRH Assistant DECLARED SP Clear #7 Personal Friend of LRH
Leon Steinberg Exec Council DECLARED SP Clear #10 Personal Friend of LRH One of the original LRH trained Class XII (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
J.J Delance Technical Staff DECLARED SP Clear #17 Started Scn in France (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Tony Dunleavy Clearing Course Supervisor DECLARED SP Clear #20 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Connie Broadbent Dir Accounts DECLARED SP Clear #29 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Craig Lipsitz Qual Staff DECLARED SP Clear #30 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Marilynn Routsong HCO Staff DECLARED SP Clear #31 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Brian Livingston Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #35 One of the original LRH trained Class XII (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Herbie Parkhouse Org Exec Sec DECLARED SP Clear #55 Personal Friend of LRH Org Exec Sec (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Anton James Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #53 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Jenny Parkhouse Treasury Staff DECLARED SP Clear #54 Personal Friend of LRH (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Virginia Downsborough Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #39 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Van Staden Treasury Staff DECLARED SP Clear #40 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Sheena Fairchild Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #41 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Jennifer Edmonds Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #15 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Bernie Green Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #18
Gareth McCoy Dissem Staff DECLARED SP Clear #21
Dalene Regenas Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #24 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Felice Green Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #26 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
John Lawrence Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #28 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Peggy Bankston Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #34 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Helen Pollen Qual Staff DECLARED SP Clear #47 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Fred Fairchild Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #49 . (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Dorothy Knight Dissem Staff DECLARED SP Clear #50 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Judy Gray Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #56 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Cal Wigney Div 6 Staff DECLARED SP Clear #57 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Mary Long Div 6 Staff DECLARED SP Clear #58 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Bill Robertson Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #61 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Linda Nussbaum Exec Staff DECLARED SP Clear #62 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Robin Lindsell Tech Staff DECLARED SP Clear #73 Class XII (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Jenny Parkhouse Saint Hill Staff DECLARED SP Clear #54 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Val Wigney Saint Hill Interne DECLARED SP Clear #87 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Edith Hoyseth Saint Hill Interne DECLARED SP Clear #105 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Roger Biddell Saint Hill Interne DECLARED SP Clear #107 (Declared by Current Church Leadership)
Cyril Vosper Tech Staff DECLARED SP


International Management
And if you think that is a long list, you should see the list of staff who have been declared who worked at Scientology’s International Headquarters in Gilman Hot Springs, California (near Hemet). That list is hundreds long. I haven't done the math (perhaps someone will) but I'd estimate at least 60% to 70% of all the Sea Org Members who have worked at Int have been declared. That's a LOT more than 2 1/2%. And it doesn't matter whether you blow or route out. Either way, you are declared.

But the numbers get even worse. Some 60 people at the Int Base have been declared, and they haven't even left. These are people like Ray Mithoff, Mark Yager, Janet Light, Guillaume Leserve. That's nearly 20% of the people at the Int Base who are also declared.

And you may also wish to take into account the fact that Sea Org members who are cleared to go to the Int Base are already the "best of the best." Meaning, they have to have,

A proven record of meaningful accomplishment and positive contributions as a Scientologist
Have an I.Q. in the genius band (135 or higher)
Have an ethics record that is squeaky clean, i.e., no history of any sexual perversions
No drug reversion
No psychiatric history of any kind
No connections to anyone in the military, government, psychology or the media
No unhandled PTS situation
Willing to dedicate their lives to the expansion of Scientology
No government security clearance
At least one year's experience as a Sea Org member with a good production record
Special training reserved just for Int Base staff members
History of case gain and case in good shape
And with all that, some 60% to 70% still turned out to be raving SPs? No. Miscavige is the SP. My own Declare Order for example does not even list any High Crimes. What it does list are lies.

Can We Ever Be Friends?
In the year 2,000, David Miscavige called everyone at the Int Base to MCI (Massacre Canyon Int -- the old resort restaurant where staff eat). A Miscavige spokes person went up to the podium and said, "You are about to hear a recorded presentation. Each one of you are to consider it as a special message directly from David Miscavige to YOU. Take the message to heart."

As it turned out, the recorded message was a new incredibly hokey version of "Can We Ever Be Friends?" -- an audio program written by LRH for Scientologists so they could hand it to suppressive persons who were attacking them and thereby make a change.

In other words, as of 2,000 David Miscavige was convinced that every single staff member at the Int Base was an SP. In Scientology, that is known as "delusional" or "Type III PTS." PTS is a "potential trouble source" i.e., the victim of a toxic personality. LRH says, "The type three PTS is mostly in institutions or would be. On this case the... apparent SP is spread all over the world and is often more than all the people there are -- for the person sometimes has ghosts about him or demons and they are just more apparent SPs but imaginary as beings as well."

So the actual situation is we have a real SP at the head of Scientology who has been busy for 25 years shooting everyone around him and ruining their lives.

Written by Thoughtful
end Quote-

 

[Rae]

Thanks you Fishdaddy!

I'm so glad to see that you are also endorsing that new blog! I found it a couple weeks back and have been quoting it here on ESMB ever since. I also believe, like so many others here, that you have to start slowly with Scientologists in getting them to really look. I was the same way when I was getting out. For me, I had come across Ex-Scienology Kids site and recognized a few of the kids and just had to read what they said. It went slowly from there progressing to full on rage (and paranoia -at that time) over the con I was involved in for almost 40 years. It definitely took me a bit to start looking at the man who started it all..

Thank you again! (have you been practicing your martial arts? You never know when you'll need to use that Scissor hold technique!!)

 

[CornPie]

I've noticed a lot of comments about getting people out of scientology. I admire and respect that, a lot of thought has been put into it.

But I think we should also be trying to deter people from getting sucked in -- and I don't hear as much about that around here. If anything, I see some FreeZoners around here, who would prefer keep 'raw meat' dumb, so they can take advantage of them, and deceptively indoctrinate them with scientology-freezone type services. Or Knowledgism, or Idenics, or Indys-pendents -- I see them using the ESMB forum, to fish for new raw meat. They want ex-scientologists and newbies alike -- they want to suck people into undisclosed services, under false pretenses. This is deplorable.

The thing is, regardless of what web sites you recommend, almost everyone will eventually visit Google -- to search for themselves, to make their own decisions.

I think any web site that tries to 'not alienate' a current scientologist -- will 'conceal the ugliness' of scientology/freezone, from people researching it and considering whether to get involved. I think the best way to keep people out is to make a web site; as factual, as pretty, or as ugly, and above all as complete as possible. With no holds barred. With no content manipulation. With no censorship.

Take for example the thread, 'A call for honesty in the freezone'. It contained some of the most eloquent hard hitting info on Xenu and Body Thetans (BT's) that I have seen, on both sides of the issue. As one member put it, this thread was gold. But ESMB just censored it to the members only 'Grudge Matches' forum -- where it is no longer visible to the open Internet. The thread was killed in the prime of its life, sadly we will never know what else would have been said. Sure, you can make the case that now it won't be offending the minds of scientologists who are just 'coming out'. But in so doing, this censorship also shields an infinitely larger group, 'raw meat' from hard hitting, nasty ugliness of scientology and the freezone's so-called 'tech'. Web sites that soft peddle, deprive raw meat of laughable concepts of alien Xenu and BT's, which will almost certainly be inflicted upon them, once their eyes are glazed over. In both scientology and freezone alike. Here is the url of the censored thread about Xenu and BT's. I'm sorry to say, you will need an ESMB membership to view it:
www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=12633

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I've noticed a lot of comments about getting people out of scientology. I admire and respect that, a lot of thought has been put into it.

But I think we should also be trying to deter people from getting in -- and I don't hear as much about that around here. (If anything, I see some FreeZoners around here, who would prefer keep 'raw meat' dumb, so they can take advantage of them, and deceptively indoctrinate them with scientology services.)

The thing is, regardless of what web sites you recommend, both types of people, very early on, will be visiting Google -- they're going to want to find out for themselves, and they will gravitate to the sites that make sense to them.

I think any web site that tries to 'not alienate' a current scientologist -- will 'conceal the ugliness' of scientology/freezone, from people researching it and considering whether to get in.

For example, the thread 'A call for honesty in the freezone'. It contained some of the most eloquent hard hitting info on Xenu and Body Thetans (BT's) that I have seen. And ESMB just censored it to a members only 'Grudge Matches' forum -- where it is no longer visible to the open Internet. Sure, you can make the case that now it won't be offending the minds of scientologists who are just 'coming out'. But this censorship shields 'raw meat' from the nasty ugliness of scientology and the freezone. It deprives them of laughable concepts of alien Xenu and BT's, which will eventually be inflicted upon them. Here is the url, I'm sorry to say, you'll need an ESMB membership to view it:
www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=12633

If anyone is even remotely thinking about getting involved in Hubbard's mind control cult all they need to do is see how dysfunctional his "Tech" will make them. Here as an OT V, who is a total mess when confronted with someone who knows how to cut through the Hubbardian flimflam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzJAqiyLtq0

Yep Jason Beghe wasn't kidding about how bad Hubbard's OT levels mess you up