Pirate and Bum wants me to start a tech thread so as to keep the stuff I say separate from others' threads. So OK, here it is.
Anyone may contribute but is you hate the tech and reckon it is all crap then please stay away and go and join the others with like ideas to you on the other threads. You are not welcome here.
Any questions you have regarding the tech or whatever, if you are sincere in your questioning, you may post here and I will answer as best I can.
We start with a cut and paste of P&B's question to me re Help processing:
Originally Posted by Leon
This statement is a blatant contradiction in terms. It's an oxymoron.
The only process which can, or should, reduce havingness is Dianetics where masses are erased. All Scientology process depend on the preclear increasing his reach for their effectiveness, and so should always increase havingness.
P&B:
Leon, I invite you to LOOK at what you just wrote in response. You call out a blatant contradiction and then provide an example of a process that reduces havingness in contradiction to your own statement. I find that a bit perplexing my friend.
I see that you are making a distinction between erasing mass and Scientology processes. I would invite you to explore further this idea that only dianetics is capable of erasing mass. This is just not the case. Could it be that the help processes are also erasing mass? You seem to have come to this conclusion or am I missing something?
It seems that you are proposing (this is my interpretation of what I am getting from what you wrote) that any process that brought about a "key-out" - a moving off of some mental crap - which would reduce "havingness" and is therefor not a scientology process - which would rule out most of the grade processes. Confessional procedure also reduces havingness.
It seems that by your classification that only processes that invite a person to exercise and improve their ability would be "scientology" processes - like creative processing. I find that to be a bit restrictive. Is not R3R part of your scientology universe?
Hope you can clear this up for me.
Edit: I know this discussion is going to make some people here unhappy campers. How about making a thread to discuss your ideas Leon?
OK. What I wrote is somewhat unclear so let's straighten it out a little.
First, "auditing a person at Cause", versus, "auditing the person at Effect" refers to the position the person had in the incident.
Dianetics is primarily focussed on erasing bad things that happened to the preclear - so here he is being run at Effect. This is why Dianetics is a Limited Process - you can only run a person at effect for a short while before he starts to adopt the effect valence more thoroughly and so the process develops a negative aspect. Also, mental masses get erased and this leads to a further loss of havingness. Never mind the four flows on this matter - they are of lesser importance.
Scientology processes are in the main focussed on auditing the preclear at Cause, e.g "What could you confront? What have you done? What problem could you solve? What overt have you committed? What have you withheld?" etc etc. Processes such as these are key-out processes and are not so limited. Yes, some preclears tend to "overrun" after you go past a win and so the auditor should never do this. But it is quite possible that at a later stage of his progress the preclear is able to confront more and dig deeper and then grades processes such as these can be run again with much benefit. In order to run such a process as this the preclear continually needs to increase his reach a little - the process leads him into this - and so his havingness increases and does not need to be remedied.
Now one can do this - and this is seen throughout the grades - on several different subjects - Recalls, communication, control, CCHs, problems, ARC, etc, etc. All of them display the same increases in havingness in the preclear when you run them. But running Help is different. And it has been known to be different ever since LRH developed them during the 3rd South African ACC back in about 1960 or 61. Havingness needs to be run often - like after each process - and thoroughly. Why? I reckon it is because by auditing the preclear at Effect point you are in fact running a reverse process.
= = = = = =
Anyone may contribute but is you hate the tech and reckon it is all crap then please stay away and go and join the others with like ideas to you on the other threads. You are not welcome here.
Any questions you have regarding the tech or whatever, if you are sincere in your questioning, you may post here and I will answer as best I can.
We start with a cut and paste of P&B's question to me re Help processing:
Originally Posted by Leon
This statement is a blatant contradiction in terms. It's an oxymoron.
The only process which can, or should, reduce havingness is Dianetics where masses are erased. All Scientology process depend on the preclear increasing his reach for their effectiveness, and so should always increase havingness.
P&B:
Leon, I invite you to LOOK at what you just wrote in response. You call out a blatant contradiction and then provide an example of a process that reduces havingness in contradiction to your own statement. I find that a bit perplexing my friend.
I see that you are making a distinction between erasing mass and Scientology processes. I would invite you to explore further this idea that only dianetics is capable of erasing mass. This is just not the case. Could it be that the help processes are also erasing mass? You seem to have come to this conclusion or am I missing something?
It seems that you are proposing (this is my interpretation of what I am getting from what you wrote) that any process that brought about a "key-out" - a moving off of some mental crap - which would reduce "havingness" and is therefor not a scientology process - which would rule out most of the grade processes. Confessional procedure also reduces havingness.
It seems that by your classification that only processes that invite a person to exercise and improve their ability would be "scientology" processes - like creative processing. I find that to be a bit restrictive. Is not R3R part of your scientology universe?
Hope you can clear this up for me.
Edit: I know this discussion is going to make some people here unhappy campers. How about making a thread to discuss your ideas Leon?
OK. What I wrote is somewhat unclear so let's straighten it out a little.
First, "auditing a person at Cause", versus, "auditing the person at Effect" refers to the position the person had in the incident.
Dianetics is primarily focussed on erasing bad things that happened to the preclear - so here he is being run at Effect. This is why Dianetics is a Limited Process - you can only run a person at effect for a short while before he starts to adopt the effect valence more thoroughly and so the process develops a negative aspect. Also, mental masses get erased and this leads to a further loss of havingness. Never mind the four flows on this matter - they are of lesser importance.
Scientology processes are in the main focussed on auditing the preclear at Cause, e.g "What could you confront? What have you done? What problem could you solve? What overt have you committed? What have you withheld?" etc etc. Processes such as these are key-out processes and are not so limited. Yes, some preclears tend to "overrun" after you go past a win and so the auditor should never do this. But it is quite possible that at a later stage of his progress the preclear is able to confront more and dig deeper and then grades processes such as these can be run again with much benefit. In order to run such a process as this the preclear continually needs to increase his reach a little - the process leads him into this - and so his havingness increases and does not need to be remedied.
Now one can do this - and this is seen throughout the grades - on several different subjects - Recalls, communication, control, CCHs, problems, ARC, etc, etc. All of them display the same increases in havingness in the preclear when you run them. But running Help is different. And it has been known to be different ever since LRH developed them during the 3rd South African ACC back in about 1960 or 61. Havingness needs to be run often - like after each process - and thoroughly. Why? I reckon it is because by auditing the preclear at Effect point you are in fact running a reverse process.
= = = = = =