Life Between Lives — Dr. Michael Newton

[KnightVision]

Hi KnightVision.

I suspect that "desires" rather than "urges" is a better word, but either way, one is the effect of them, so how on earth they could "lead to a more abundant life" surprises me, indeed on the contrary, they lead to a less abundant life.

Most people would agree with you that the physical universe as the “real world” and many of these, particularly in the Western World would consider the spiritual realm as an illusionary world. However, if we turn to physics, we find that the atom, indeed, any atom, is almost a perfect vacuum, closer to perfect than outer space, and certainly much closer than we can produce on Earth.

Now, as all objects in our physical universe consist of molecules, which are in turn consist of atoms. As atoms are vacuums, then molecules would be vacuums, then so too are objects. So our physical universe is almost a perfect vacuum, an absence of matter. There is next to nothing there. However, I am not suggesting that the physical universe is an illusion, but rather that our perception of it is illusionary. And it is the coarseness of our senses, that makes us believe that the physical universe is substantial.

To understand this, let us review the nature of our senses. First we have sight. Our eyes respond to visible light, that is electro-magnetic radiation with wavelengths less than infra-red and greater than ultra-violet. All electro-magnetic radiation is considered to consist of “particles” called photons. At these wavelengths, with their immediate attendant energy fields, are very much larger than the diameter of an atom and at the same time the frequency of these radiations is very much lower than the frequency of electron orbits forming the shell of the atom. This means that visible light will bounce off an atom rather than pass through it. Sound and touch are much much coarser than visible light, so they too would tend to find a physical object impenetrable.

On the other hand, cosmic rays, a form of electro-magnetic radiation which comes from outer space, have photons much smaller than the diameter of an atom. Not only are cosmic rays able to pass through steel many centimetres thick, but scientists going down into deep mines have found that cosmic rays can penetrate thousands of metres into the Earth.

It is one's mind which interprets his physical senses and passes it on to him, the ego, the conscious, intelligent part of us. So while the physical world is ethereal, to us it appears to be quite substantial.

And of course, this is also true of your body, indeed everyone's body. They are simply illusions. So in actuality, the spiritual realm is the “real world” and the physical universe is the illusionary world.

Regards, David.

Nicely put. Now try not eating for 200 days and come back and continue this conversation.

 

[Scion-Daughter]

I think it is amazing that we evolved from the earth. The study of biology in college to me was almost somewhat religious. I used to believe we were nothing but a product of the material world. I found that attitude was my most arrogant. I actually was pretty cocky in those days.

It wasn't until my friends who are doctors and nurses starting telling me things that could not be just explained away that I started questioning, is this all there is? That lead me to the work of Dr Ian Stevenson and his research on early childhood memories of reincarnation. His was a medical doctor and his research is highly scientific. I also became a buddist at this time.

It was this message board that introduced me to LBL.

On of the things I think sucks people into scientolgy is regression threapy seems to work on people's problems. Scientologists get "wins" from auditing, and some classes but the rest of scientology's promises and premises are not true. (OT powers, SP's etc, clears not getting sick, etc.) I cannot support oragnized Scientology because it harms people. It makes absolute claims that can be tested and found untrue. Who does LBL exploration hurt?

Some people in the freezone still get a lot of use out of Scientology. I will not deny people what works for them as long as the accept the same for me. Mary Baker, I believe, said to me in a post it was unfortunate that I had only exprienced the use of the tone scale as a weapon. I do not believe in the tone scale, but many people here says it helps them, I believe it does work for them. This does not mean I have to follow it, but I respect their views as long as they do the same for me.

I actually had to let go of my certainty and started to venture into the unknown. I think this has helped me grow from the dismissive and rather intolerant person I was into a more compassionate and inquistive person. I think I better for it. I do not feel anyone has to agree with my point of view. I am thankful for that we have the freedom to feel whatever we feel.
I do not mean to come across as arrogant

To me this attitude seems a bit arrogant-

Life between lives??

Who the f**k cares?

The folks who make it their 'daily bread' to discuss such fantasies lack the ability to draw and create enough ultimate worth in this life. This life is now. This life is all we have. Those who are drawn to fantasize otherwise appear to be so depressed that they MUST create another unknown life to fulfill what, they have come to believe, they are incapable of in this one.

I can only speak for me but I draw and create enough worth in this life, my life is very full. It seems arrogant to assign this attitude of lack of fulfillment to others. I am not at all depressed. I am extremely happy in my life.
I have accomplished every goal I have set for myself, I have a great business, a happy family I am truly fortunate. In other words can you assume you know the minds of others. I will paraphrase what my therapist told me years ago, people get to make their own decsions that is their right. You do not have the right to make their choices for them. It was after I accepted this I became happier. Critique the work or the research behind it, but do you have to make it personal?

I do have questions about the meaning of life (whatever you want to call it), I have personal experiences that are not fantasies.

I have done so much in this life that I do not even want to reincarnate. (If there is a spirit world, can't I just stay there. I could just tidy up and do admin work or something...I don't want to have do all that math homework again...)

It is a scientific curiosity about these issues as much as a spiritual that compels me to study and get other viewpoints. I am interested in the research done, the biological as well as metaphysical. Why do they have to be at odds? I have a minor in philosphy and a minor in biology. Major in Business (I know it's wierd) I found the philosphy class enhanced my study of science. Science does not have all the answers, I recommend a book I had to read in Philosphy of Science called the structure of scientific revolution by Kuntz I believe. It is an eye opener on how much arrogance and inaccuracy there is in science. But that does not mean science is not striving for truth. I find it intellectually stimulating to read these ideas, I am certainly not trying to create a subsitute unknown world for a lack in this life.

I am rambling, (I appologize, its been a long day) but I am puzzed why the negativity towards exploring the possibilites?

I do not accept all of Dr Newton's work, but I believe there is something to it.

David's post was most elegant, this kind of study of "hard science" lead me to question or perceptions of reality.

It is one's mind which interprets his physical senses and passes it on to him, the ego, the conscious, intelligent part of us. So while the physical world is ethereal, to us it appears to be quite substantial.

And of course, this is also true of your body, indeed everyone's body. They are simply illusions. So in actuality, the spiritual realm is the “real world” and the physical universe is the illusionary world.

I am intrigued by these lines of thinking. I love to read these points of view, it challenges my mind and expands my vision as I am limited to my own experiences. I hope to read more perspectives on the nature of reality.

On a lighter note-

Originally Posted by Moonchild
And then, of course, there are 'virtual reality' sites such as "Second Life" which appear to be well-used; harmless enough I suppose unless you start to actually believe it.

I am a level 80 shadow priest gosh darn it....Fear me!!! (darn kids got me addicted to stupid World of Warcraft...lol)

Just thoughts not meant to invalidate anyone elses.

 

[KnightVision]

Hi KnightVision.

I suspect that "desires" rather than "urges" is a better word, but either way, one is the effect of them, so how on earth they could "lead to a more abundant life" surprises me, indeed on the contrary, they lead to a less abundant life.

Sorry you have that problem. Believe it or not there are some people in this life that don't end up with a 'problem' or a lack of ability, quality... etc by experiencing life, even it's follies.

In the end one eats, sleeps, has (hopefully) an interesting intellectual experience along the way... and then dies. All the fancy thought one can muster will not change that much.

Perhaps it would have been poetic justice had the nay sayers been but a rock... looking upon the mere mortals playing their illusory game.

 

[Thrak]

I think it is amazing that we evolved from the earth. The study of biology in college to me was almost somewhat religious. I used to believe we were nothing but a product of the material world. I found that attitude was my most arrogant. I actually was pretty cocky in those days.

It wasn't until my friends who are doctors and nurses starting telling me things that could not be just explained away that I started questioning, is this all there is? That lead me to the work of Dr Ian Stevenson and his research on early childhood memories of reincarnation. His was a medical doctor and his research is highly scientific. I also became a buddist at this time.

Every time I see images of cells moving around and multiplying I find it impossible to believe that that is just the result of some freak chemical reaction gone wild. But what do I know?

 

[Dulloldfart]

My question if anyone knows, Is how does the author explain the amnesia?

Jen

He mentions it a lot. I'll just give one quote from his first book, Journey of Souls. Hester is a client. Ross is a previous identity of hers. Clodees is her spirit guide. "Dr. N" is Dr. Newton. "S" is subject.:

Would Hester have benefited from knowing about her past as Ross from birth rather than having to wait over thirty years and undergo hypnosis? Having no conscious memory of our former existences is called amnesia. This human condition is perplexing to people attracted to reincarnation. Why should we have to grope around in life trying to figure out who we are and what we are supposed to do and wondering if some spir­itual divinity really cares about us? I closed my session with this woman by asking about her amnesia.

Dr. N: Why do you think you had no conscious memory about your life as Ross Feldon?
S: When we choose a body and make a plan before coming back to Earth, there is an agreement with our advisors.
Dr. N: An agreement about what?
S: We agree . . . not to remember . . . other lives.
Dr. N: Why?
S: Learning from a blank slate is better than knowing in advance what could happen to you because of what you did before.
Dr. N: But wouldn't knowing about your past life mistakes be valuable in avoiding the same pitfalls in this life?
S: If people knew all about their past, many might pay too much attention to it rather than trying out new approaches to the same problem. The new life must be . . . taken seriously.
Dr. N: Are there any other reasons?
S: (pause) Without having old memories, our advisors say there is less preoccupation for . . . trying to . . . avenge the past . . . to get even for the wrongs done to you.
Dr. N: Well, it seems to me that so far this has been part of the motivation and conduct in your life as Hester.
S: (forcefully) That’s why I came to you.
Dr. N: And do you still think a total blackout of our eternal spiritual life on Earth is essential to progress?
S: Normally, yes, but it’s not a total blackout. We get flashes from dreams . . . during times of crisis . . . people have an inner knowing of what direction to take when it is neces­sary. And sometimes your friends can fudge a little . . .
Dr. N: By friends, you mean entities from the spirit world?
S: Uh-huh . . . they give you hints, by flashing ideas—I've done it.
Dr. N: Nevertheless, you had to come to me to unlock your conscious amnesia.
S: (pause) We have . . . the capacity to know when it is necessary. I was ready for change when I heard about you. Clodees allowed me to see the past with you because it was to my benefit.
Dr. N: Otherwise, your amnesia would have remained intact?
S: Yes, that would have meant I wasn't supposed to know certain things yet.

In my opinion, when clients are unable to go into hypnosis at any given time, or if they have only sketchy memories in trance, there is a reason for this blockage. This does not mean these people have no past memories, but that they are not ready to have them exposed.​

There's lots more, but I can't quote the whole book here.

Paul

 

[knn]

My question if anyone knows, Is how does the author explain the amnesia?

He mentions it a few times, but has a too positive view of it in my opinion. Just as you would argue why it's good that all humans are born as amputees: "The wonderful reason why we are born as amputees is that we have to learn %insert reason% and not rely on our arms and legs. The council has it all figured out".

Read for example these sentences:

As part of the fetal state they are still able to think as immortal souls while they get used to brain circuitry and the alter ego of their host. After birth, an amnesiac memory block sets in and souls meld their immortal character with the temporary human mind to produce a combination of traits for a new personality.

Destinity of Souls
​

Sounds too optimistic if you ask me ("Let's thank the council for the opportunity to be stupid"). In reality the council may be as clueless as anyone else why you freaking forget everything at birth. And the sentences above should rather read:

"While in the womb souls still remember. Then they are sucked into the baby body, become stupid and cannot remember anything. They become half-soul and half-animal."
​

He shifts his view slightly towards the end of the book:

Amnesiac blocks were set in place with human beings to prevent preconditioned responses to certain karmic events.
However, the benefits of amnesia may no longer outweigh the drawbacks of lives existing within a vacuum of chemically-induced apathy.
There are too many people trying to escape from reality because they do not see their identity as having purpose or meaning.

Destinity of Souls
​

This sounds also too overly negative towards mind-altering drugs. In reality mind-altering drugs might be the very thing that the council wants to have developed on earth to finally find out the mystery of baby-amnesia.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Destinity of Souls
[/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT]Sounds too optimistic if you ask me ("Let's thank the council for the opportunity to be stupid").

Interjecting a note of "dark humor" into the discussion, this world does offer a rich opportunity to experience the manifold effects of stupidity. Could it be that this is the purpose of life in this universe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0


Mark A. Baker

 

[Moonchild]

Interjecting a note of "dark humor" into the discussion, this world does offer a rich opportunity to experience the manifold effects of stupidity. Could it be that this is the purpose of life in this universe?


Mark A. Baker

"Dark humor" aside that's actually a fair speculation; dunno about the universe at large but human history at least would seem to suggest so. How to be 'unstupid' though...there's the rub.

 

[Veda]

Amoebas are very small

Every time I see images of cells moving around and multiplying I find it impossible to believe that that is just the result of some freak chemical reaction gone wild. But what do I know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pR7TNzJ_pA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNHf...1DAB9F35&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=15

Both can be played together.

 

[mate]

I suspect that the idea of amnesia is simply an explanation adopted by Newton’s clients because there would seem to be no other possible one. To me there is a much simpler explanation than that of amnesia.

When a child is born, he has no awareness of himself.

In the beginning, he is pre-occupied with his senses, and as a result, he becomes aware of his environment, rather than aware of himself. This is not surprising, as his senses are directed towards the environment, which would, of course, include the body, through its physical sensations. Sensations such being held and being hungry, but when the sensations stop, he forgets about them and the body.

Then his attention settles on his mother, who is constantly there, and he becomes aware of her. Then, in time, he becomes aware of others, and eventually he becomes aware of his own body. But he is not aware of, and does not become aware of, his spiritual ego.

Then at some point, he begins to become aware of how others respond to him. If he is responsive, he gets smiles and cuddles, and he feels good. This is the birth of the new ego. But it is not his spiritual ego; it is simply the start of a series of behaviour patterns. Behaviour patterns, which conform to the demands of society and result in his feeling good. He then discovers that behaviour patterns, which do not conform to social demands, result in his feeling bad, and so he tends to suppress them.

So the emerging ego is, then, the product of society's needs, not the needs of the individual. The individual’s needs as an individual, are unimportant. So that others are trying to mold the child’s emerging ego in such a way that he doesn't become a problem to society.

When others address him, they frequently refer to his behaviour, using expressions such as, “That’s a good boy”, “That’s a clever boy”, “That’s a bad boy”. Such praise and admonition, has the child sense that he is important. This sense of importance, leads the child to identifying with this emerging ego, but he is still unaware of his spiritual ego.

This identification is subsequently reinforced with others’ use of “you, your, yours” and the child further reinforces it when he adopts the use of “I, me, my, mine”.

Eventually, the child goes to school where the emerging ego is trained to conform to society’s requirements, is provided with relevant information, and is taught how to analyse and calculate. When this indoctrination is deemed complete, he is released into society. Ultimately, he never becomes aware of his spiritual ego.

On the other hand, it would also seem that highly advanced souls are aware of their spiritual ego and their history in detail, as Newton describes in one case study. This is probably part of the learning process, where a spiritual ego eventually becomes able to “merge” with the newly created ego. Unfortunately, my copies of his books are out on loan, so I can’t give you a reference.

Just a thought.

Regards, David.

 

[Moonchild]

(snip) I suspect that the idea of amnesia is simply an explanation adopted by Newton’s clients because there would seem to be no other possible one. To me there is a much simpler explanation than that of amnesia.



Regards, David.

Great post, thank you. You make some good observations here; there are some points I'd like to comment on but not until I've digested more thoroughly.

Regards and MC.

 

[mate]

There are a couple of observations I would like to make about the spiritual world as revealed by Newton.

With many on this thread, the spiritual world as described by Newton, strikes a chord, yet there are some who dismiss it. I suspect that those who are inclined to dismiss it, are young souls as described by Newton, whereas the others are somewhat more advanced. This not meant to be derogatory in any sense. Students in elementary school, for the most part, do not feel inferior to those in senior school. In other words, it would seem that the greater the experience as a soul, the more likely it is to strike a chord.

The second one is that this spirit world exists in the physical universe. It has time which is unidirectional, in that one can not go back in time and take up a body. It has the dimensions of space and the souls are individuals and have identity. This means that souls have egos, that they are not enlightened beings. Of the ten fetters, or barriers, on the Buddhist path to enlightenment or self realisation, we have:

6. Attachment To The Form Realms That is, still craving for and clinging to, fine material existence.

7. Attachment To The Formless Realms That is, craving for non-material existence.

The 6th barrier describes our earthly existence and the 7th, our spiritual existence.

One can only handle the 6th barrier by having a body such as being on earth, whereas the 7th barrier can be addressed, either on Earth or in the spiritual world.

Regards, David.

 

[ThisFenceHurts]

Actually I consider that represents a misunderstanding of scientology on your part. Being at effect is very important to any identity. According to the "communication formula" it is ESSENTIAL to the ability to communicate, just as one example.

Having the ability either to be or not be at "effect" at will would be a valid scientology goal. Being stuck in either condition is indicative of possessing a failing "postulate".


Mark A. Baker

You must not talk to many Scientologists. Effect=bad is a pretty common viewpoint, "correct" or not. It is the agreement with the goofy viewpoint that I am referring to. It becomes an enforced viewpoint in the church on a lot of levels. So, I consider that your response represents a misunderstanding of what Scientology is, as it exists in reality.

 

[ThisFenceHurts]

Hi ThisFenceHurts, you do make a very good point.

Knowingly being at effect is, of course, positive as it is intentional. However, unknowingly being at effect is definitely an unsatisfactory situation, such as the desire to have a cigarette or a coffee. These are the result of uninspected physical sensations, which have become automatic. And, indeed, most physical sensations associated with desires requiring fulfillment, are uninspected.

Regards, David.

You and I simply disagree on this. Some great fun can be had playing games where you are unknowingly at effect. The opportunity for discovery exists in these situations. Why would that be bad? Life seems to me to be nothing more than a process of discovering unknown causes. In other words, learning. Without that, there is no life, there is no game and things get pretty dull.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

You must not talk to many Scientologists. Effect=bad is a pretty common viewpoint, "correct" or not. It is the agreement with the goofy viewpoint that I am referring to. It becomes an enforced viewpoint in the church on a lot of levels. So, I consider that your response represents a misunderstanding of what Scientology is, as it exists in reality.

I left the Co$ 27 years back precisely because people in "management" were openly advocating (& enforcing) "goofy" ideas.


Mark A. Baker

 

[mate]

You and I simply disagree on this. Some great fun can be had playing games where you are unknowingly at effect. The opportunity for discovery exists in these situations. Why would that be bad? Life seems to me to be nothing more than a process of discovering unknown causes. In other words, learning. Without that, there is no life, there is no game and things get pretty dull.

I do believe that if you were to provide us with a couple of examples of where you were unknowingly at effect and as a result, you discovered something worthwhile, I and others would have a better idea, of what you were driving at.

Regards, David.

 

[ThisFenceHurts]

I do believe that if you were to provide us with a couple of examples of where you were unknowingly at effect and as a result, you discovered something worthwhile, I and others would have a better idea, of what you were driving at.

Regards, David.

Ever been a kid? If you were, were you unknowingly effect of anything? Did eventually inspecting these situations ever bring about understanding that would have been impossible without the experience in the first place? The entirety of life, the quest to make unknowns known, the finding of what might be a hidden influence (germs, third parties, divorce of parents) are all a valuable part of the game. Kind of like the idea, "You learn from your mistakes" - where there is a mistake, there is usually an unknown effect situation, even if the cause is yourself, but unknown to you at the time. But you need to make the mistakes, or have the unknowns for there to be much of a game.

Again, this is assuming that you are ok with not being at CAUSE and obsessed with knowing everything from the start of a game. I personally enjoy moving from being unknowing effect to knowing effect and eventually to cause when desirable. Playing pool...you have absolutely no clue that you are effect of the designer of the table when you first play at age 5. As you get older, you discover that all tables are not equal, and design (table length, felt selection, etc.) plays a role. You can either decide to remain effect of this situation, knowingly, or you can decide to investigate the table you will play on. Sometimes it is fun just to see what happens! Do you not agree?

 

[ThisFenceHurts]

I left the Co$ 27 years back precisely because people in "management" were openly advocating (& enforcing) "goofy" ideas.


Mark A. Baker

That was a good call on your part! Why didn't you grab me on your way out?

 

[mate]

Ever been a kid? If you were, were you unknowingly effect of anything? Did eventually inspecting these situations ever bring about understanding that would have been impossible without the experience in the first place? The entirety of life, the quest to make unknowns known, the finding of what might be a hidden influence (germs, third parties, divorce of parents) are all a valuable part of the game. Kind of like the idea, "You learn from your mistakes" - where there is a mistake, there is usually an unknown effect situation, even if the cause is yourself, but unknown to you at the time. But you need to make the mistakes, or have the unknowns for there to be much of a game.

Again, this is assuming that you are ok with not being at CAUSE and obsessed with knowing everything from the start of a game. I personally enjoy moving from being unknowing effect to knowing effect and eventually to cause when desirable. Playing pool...you have absolutely no clue that you are effect of the designer of the table when you first play at age 5. As you get older, you discover that all tables are not equal, and design (table length, felt selection, etc.) plays a role. You can either decide to remain effect of this situation, knowingly, or you can decide to investigate the table you will play on. Sometimes it is fun just to see what happens! Do you not agree?

Hi ThisFenceHurts.

I thought from your assertions, that you had experienced major insights as the direct result of being unknowingly the effect. But I can now see that it is an idea that you have, if you like, a hypothesis. That's fine, I certainly don't have a quarrel with it. But you do need to test it, before you can assert any validity for it. In the physical sciences, one would conduct an experiment, the social sciences, such as this, the best approach is to conduct a survey, as I suspect you don't have the time or facilities to undertake a series of case studies. Obviously I am not suggesting that you follow up every bright idea in this way, but it ought to act as a guideline. This will not only give you some certainty, but it will clarify your thoughts.

It was 60 years ago when I was a kid. But I do recall a couple of incidents when I was unknowingly at effect. One I was playing rugby as a 13 year old, I was tackled and end up near the sideline, completely out of breath. The coach came onto the field and was shaking me, and kept saying, "Pass the ball, pass the ball,....". I just wanted to get away and catch my breath, which eventually I did.

The other incident was a bit later in 1953, when I was in my final year at school studying for what was then called a leaving certificate. I had a small sailing boat and decided to go sailing for the day as a break. Well! My dad blew his top, I was absolutely stunned, but I went anyway, and I remember deciding, while sailing, "I'll show him and get a good result, which I did and I ended up getting a university scholarship. Again, I was very much the effect, but neither of these would qualify for what you are suggesting.

Regards, David.

 

[Emma]

I can't believe I've missed this thread the whole time.

Anyway.....

This all sounds fascinating and I've ordered the books from Amazon.

Mate & DoF might also be interested (or not) in "The Michael Teachings". I was introduced to this "group" by a good friend shortly after I left Scn.

It's quite a complex and intricate body of knowledge to get your head around in one go.

This link gives a fairly good overview:

http://www.newagevillage.com/wiki/index.php/Michael_Teachings

The reason I mention the Michael teachings is because it seems to be quite similar to LBL "theory" in that we set our own goals and challenges for future incarnations with an overall goal to grow, learn & mature as spritual entities.

I've read a few other books which also talk about "earth as a kindergarten, school, college" etc to allow us to have as many "trys" as needed to overcome our shortcomings and return to "God/cause/The All" as a worthy being.

Edit:

Here is an article I found which talks about "the game:

http://www.michaelteachings.com/game.html