Like other religions?

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
If you were to stroll in and inquire about the scilon service, you might notice a flurry of activity and right before your eyes have a church setting, complete with a minister in full garb and lots of people attending (every available staff member). Try it sometimes. :lol:

Kinda like those beds you fold out from the wall. Ten seconds ago there's nothing, and then, voilà, instant religion!

Paul
 

secretiveoldfag

Silver Meritorious Patron
< There's this policy letter about "The Little Brown Church in the Vale," where Hubbard disses on the sense of community one finds in Protestant churches. I don't think he ever really understood what makes a "church" a "church." It's more than just a tax-exempt status. I think that's why the Scientology Sunday Service is as souless as the Church itself.

This ties in with Ron's inability to come to terms with the concept of Love, explored in this forum recently, and his pious attitude to children and the family as laid out in revolting sticky terms in Child Dianetics and no doubt other places. Whatever he said, he meant exactly the opposite.

Another missing element is education: children have to work, to earn money or for Scientology. He never mentions schooling in CD, perhaps because he had none himself.
 
Another missing element is education: children have to work, to earn money or for Scientology. He never mentions schooling in CD, perhaps because he had none himself.

No doubt. Basically, if Ron didn't experience it himself, it isn't important. That's how I figure he takes such a dim view of mediation, despite his claim to be the reincarnation of Buddha. He could never sit still long enough to do it himself, therefore it's bad. The more I look at Hubbard, the more he seems like a petulant libido wrapped in the charisma of a confidence man.

He was a sophist. In the study tapes he says something to the effect of "learn the lingo and you're most of the way towards understanding the subject." To be a church all you need are the trappings of a church. Cross? Check. Big, important-looking book? Check. Minister in the front droning on about some nonsense to a group of people arrayed in rows before him? Check. The "cargo cult" was built by the king of the dilettantes.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
The 'Cargo Cult' was built by people using flawed tools to analyze reality. They did so honestly and didn't pretend to be using 'scientific method'. It's good to understand how the 'system' works, since it's really one of the core human systems.

Ron was a fake, however you cut it. Cargo Cult? That's respectable and honest, if 'wrong'.

Zinj
 

The Great Zorg

Gold Meritorious Patron
Kinda like those beds you fold out from the wall. Ten seconds ago there's nothing, and then, voilà, instant religion!
Paul

Yup... now you see it (Sunday morning, anywhere in clamland) and .... pffffffffttttt poof!... now you don't (the 'reges' are done with the 'public walk-ins' and it's all back to 'normal' (oxymoron)). :confused2:
 

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
This cult is more like a secret society than a religion.

What religion has secret levels?

What religion has 'fixed donations' (a euphemism for fees) for being initiated into the next level?

What religion promises super abilities to it's members, but only if they go up the levels?

What religion has practices that are required for you to do in order to advance on the levels?

What true religion has a hierarchy as it's governing body? (don't even go there, I said 'true' religion)

They even give themselves away by trying to say (falsely) that members of any religion can be involved!

I can tell you from first hand experience that secret societies consider themselves 'above' religion. They all pretty much consider that anyone who is an adherent of any religion will give it up, once they are initiated into the inner secrets.

Secret alphabets and such; well, this cult has it's vast nomenclature, many times using replacements of words that didn't really need replacing. It's one of the techniques for building an 'egregore' or group mind. Masonry and what-not uses 'passwords' in obscure languages for the same purpose.

Considering Laffy's background; which is demonstrably from association with secret societies, and not from being in a 'religion' or 'church'. This would seem to make sense.
 
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Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
This cult is more like a secret society than a religion.

Scientology is not a secret society anymore, because of the Exs.
It is a totalitarian system with political ambitions.
I will qoute the OP who wrote that in another thread:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=442041#post442041

Some cultures see Scientology more clearly than others. A German, for example, knows how to start a cult in 14 easy stages:

How to create a sect or totalitarian movement:

1.You need a charismatic leader (an alpha male - Hitler/Hubbard/Miscavige).
2. You need rituals (Jugendweihe/OT levels).
3. You need an elite (Offizier/OT).
4. You need black and white thinking, elite thinking (Herrenrasse/homonovis).
5. You need uniforms and symbols (Hakenkreuz/Scientology-Symbols).
6. You need fear (SA,SS,OSA).
7. You need an enemy (Jews/SPs).
8. You need secrets (OT levels).
9. You need a control structure where everybody controls everybody, where children control their parents and parents control their children.
10. You have to organise children into elite youth groups (Hitlerjugend/Sea Org)
11. You have to keep the people working; they must not be allowed to think.
12. The distribution of knowledge is restricted.
13. You need to be able to get people to talk (Torture, Auditing, KRs)
14. You need jails and forced labour camps (KZs, Stalag, RPF)

Much of this has only been possible in the twentieth century. Even army uniforms are a relatively new thing. Effective propaganda relies on controlling information.

We could argue that since David Miscavige sits at the top of a cult, in total control, he has very little to worry about. The entity must and will continue to support him.

It is also evident that it will serve no purpose to dismantle Scientology 'in its present form' since any new form such as the Church of MR, will perpetuate all the cultogenic features of the Church of DM, just as the Church of DM perpetuates all the cultogenic features of the Church of LRH. Ron is gone but his egregor lives on.

LRH knew very well what he was about. I believe he could not believe how easy it was.

A comparison between the Nazi time and Hubbard's Ideology is written in the German Chanology Wiki. I am sorry it is only in German!
http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/deref...tsextremismus/hitler-als-vorbild?s[]=bulletin
 

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
Scientology is not a secret society anymore, because of the Exs.
It is a totalitarian system with political ambitions.
I will qoute the OP who wrote that in another thread:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=442041#post442041



A comparison between the Nazi time and Hubbard's Ideology is written in the German Chanology Wiki. I am sorry it is only in German!
http://service.gmx.net/de/cgi/deref...tsextremismus/hitler-als-vorbild?s[]=bulletin

Well met!
 
The 'Cargo Cult' was built by people using flawed tools to analyze reality. They did so honestly and didn't pretend to be using 'scientific method'. It's good to understand how the 'system' works, since it's really one of the core human systems.

Ron was a fake, however you cut it. Cargo Cult? That's respectable and honest, if 'wrong'.

Zinj

Good point!
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Actually, RMackie, I could find a couple other examples of religions with "secret levels"...

But in any event, something I personally find interesting is that Hubbard seemed to want to take Scn in a different direction and seemed proud of this. BUT he also wrote a policy letter advising church members to give people some context in explaining Scn to them, about how it can be similar to other religions. So you get a dichotomy there, I think. On one hand, oh look how unique it is, on the other hand, no, no, we're just like the other guys.

Well, the way I see it is this: Scn and CofS make and made the mistakes that other ologies, isms and churches have made. There is a bit of commonality here and there belief-wise, but the combination of self help discipline, religious theory, UFO-ology and so on are relatively unique. It wouldn't matter one jot to me whether or not Scn was unique or just like all the other guys if only there weren't so many problematic and abusive aspects to it. What particularly pisses me off is Hubbard's assurance that he dunnit rite whereas the other guys did it rong then he proceeded to behave no better than the most corrupt medieval popes in history.
 

Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
Actually, RMackie, I could find a couple other examples of religions with "secret levels"...

But in any event, something I personally find interesting is that Hubbard seemed to want to take Scn in a different direction and seemed proud of this. BUT he also wrote a policy letter advising church members to give people some context in explaining Scn to them, about how it can be similar to other religions. So you get a dichotomy there, I think. On one hand, oh look how unique it is, on the other hand, no, no, we're just like the other guys.

Well, the way I see it is this: Scn and CofS make and made the mistakes that other ologies, isms and churches have made. There is a bit of commonality here and there belief-wise, but the combination of self help discipline, religious theory, UFO-ology and so on are relatively unique. It wouldn't matter one jot to me whether or not Scn was unique or just like all the other guys if only there weren't so many problematic and abusive aspects to it. What particularly pisses me off is Hubbard's assurance that he dunnit rite whereas the other guys did it rong then he proceeded to behave no better than the most corrupt medieval popes in history.


I have a background education in the tradition that Hubbard drew from in the creation of his whatever the hell it is that he created.

It's a religion in that your religion is what you totally believe. It's a secret society, because it's build around the business model that all the old occult schools are built around. It's a 'science' in that it uses scientific-sounding terms. It's 'medicine' in that it claims to heal maladies.

What I think he did that was unique is that he stripped the 'Western Mystery Tradition' of it's heraldry and symbolism; the rituals, robes, elemental weapons, talismans, incantations, and pageantry in general.

If you discount the power of this kind of thing, research 'Bohemian Grove' and then think again.

Hubbard stripped it of it's ancient trappings, and veiled it in a modern, scientific-sounding facade. Brilliant marketing, at the very least.

It's still the same thing though; You can be as God.
 
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SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
<snip> If you discount the power of this kind of thing, research 'Bohemian Grove' and then think again. <snip>
hmm.. Hubbard mentioned 12 british bankers at one time.. Was this an actual indication of an existing group, or was it a deliberate 'false target' to protect and maybe reassure the actual existing power groups?

:unsure:
 

KissMyStats

Patron with Honors
Sunday Service jam sessions

When I was first in in the 70's there were a lot of musicians on course and on staff. Many of the Sunday services were 20 minutes of reading the creed and a few other things and then an hour of live music. I loved going to those. (this was at a mission) And there was zero regging. They made it fun to go. Days long gone.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
This cult is more like a secret society than a religion.

What religion has secret levels?

Almost all "initiatory" religions do. This includes many traditional religions of Africa and their offshoots such as Vodou, Santeria, Lukumi. Additionally, there are many modern pagan sects that have secret levels, e.g. English Traditional Wicca.

Outside of the Abrahamic faiths, I'd say it's fairly common, and there's even aspects of it in Catholicism.
 

Wisened One

Crusader
When I was first in in the 70's there were a lot of musicians on course and on staff. Many of the Sunday services were 20 minutes of reading the creed and a few other things and then an hour of live music. I loved going to those. (this was at a mission) And there was zero regging. They made it fun to go. Days long gone.

Never heard of that. Like you said: Days long gone. If they woulda been that way at ALL events, sunday svcs, bet people woulda been giving more of their money to courses, auditing, etc. (using their own tech ya know? reach and withdraw?) Good thing they've stopped doing that, tho! :thumbsup:
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
When I was first in in the 70's there were a lot of musicians on course and on staff. Many of the Sunday services were 20 minutes of reading the creed and a few other things and then an hour of live music. I loved going to those. (this was at a mission) And there was zero regging. They made it fun to go. Days long gone.

We had music performances at the Riverside Mission.

However, I never saw Chick Corea play on the premises of old ASHO when he was a student there on the briefing course in the 1970s.

And that was a big difference between missions and upper level orgs. They had to do it at the Greek Theater in L.A.
 

secretiveoldfag

Silver Meritorious Patron
Originally Posted by RMack
I have a background education in the tradition that Hubbard drew from in the creation of his whatever the hell it is that he created.

It's a religion in that your religion is what you totally believe. It's a secret society, because it's build around the business model that all the old occult schools are built around. It's a 'science' in that it uses scientific-sounding terms. It's 'medicine' in that it claims to heal maladies.

What I think he did that was unique is that he stripped the 'Western Mystery Tradition' of it's heraldry and symbolism; the rituals, robes, elemental weapons, talismans, incantations, and pageantry in general.

If you discount the power of this kind of thing, research 'Bohemian Grove' and then think again.

Hubbard stripped it of it's ancient trappings, and veiled it in a modern, scientific-sounding facade. Brilliant marketing, at the very least.

It's still the same thing though; You can be as God.

As far as the religious (and other) symbolism is concerned Hubbard picked up and used anything bright and shiny that fitted his purposes.

But IMO he wasn't trying to found a religion, or a secret society (other than the secret society of which he was the sole member), or a self-help movement. He had not the slightest interest in the spiritual, physical or financial well-being of any person other than himself. But he did want to make a lot of money.

I believe his main purpose in founding Scientology was to create a docile following of virtual slaves, devoted to his every wish and incapable of taking independent action on any point.

His talent lay not in creating a new cult called Scientology but making of it the perfect tool to serve his own occult purposes. To do so he used anything that came to hand including hypnotism, magic. Nazi techniques (which is where the 'religion' comes from') and Sunday morning services.

Scientology is still using whatever comes to hand to get its foot in the door: disaster relief, business expertise, educational methods, human rights.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I think Hubbard did far more than he needed to, in his development and putting forward of his theories and techniques, than he needed to just to get cult members and amass money. Look at the reams of stuff he wrote. He could have done the job with a tenth the material. Other cult leaders HAVE.

But I also know that from reading Dianetics in Limbo (which takes place in the very early 50s) that he was venal from the git-go. So I have come up with my own theory-- he believed in the spiritual and mental health aspects of Dn and Scn and wanted to develop them, that he had been doing that in previous lifetimes (yes, I believe in past lives. I'll just be upfront about it.) but that he thought it might be a great way to bait the hook.

This differs from my earlier theory in which Hubbard meant well THEN got seduced by the money and the power.
 
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