Louis Theroux' Scientology documentary to premiere

Gib

Crusader
I'm aware that I see things very differently to many and that I have a tendency to simplify (often due to sheer boredom) but looking back at something that had such a huge effect on our lives was always going to be hard to justify and explain even to each other and there may be a tendency to try and make it seem more complicated than it was.

I always remove generational scientologists from any of my more serious thoughts on the cofs because they were in a different situation entirely.

From where I now see things the cult was only as complicated as we each made it and whether we call it faith based, fear based, brainwashing and lies based or gullibility based (or a combination of all) in the end it adds up to the same thing ... it was and it remains a ridiculous cult which sadly we all got sucked in to for our own individual reasons and in the main (as far as I can tell) were at a young, tender and vulnerable age when it happened ... but I doubt if many (in the real world) care about the details and nuances (and especially when making a documentary or movie) and neither should they because it isn't about us or being made for us, people are able and allowed to form an opinion based on what they do know or even feel to be the truth, they will hopefully never become obsessive over thinkers concerning scientology ... there are so many really serious things going on in the world that actually matter.

To try now to make others (especially those in the business of entertainment) understand things from our viewpoints just makes us look ridiculous after a certain point ... the movie sounds brilliant, it will do what we all want it to do and based in part on what Karen (who was involved) said in an earlier post I don't buy that Louis Theroux was out of his depth, he just made choices based on the time he had available and on what he felt it was important to cover ... for his paying audience.

Come at me bro (I've always wanted to say that).


:biggrin:





totally disagree.

Great.

Everybody turn off your computers, drop your pens if you are writing a book, go home and put your head in the sand. Yep, that includes you Jesse Prince, DM's dad, Lean's book - just cancel it now. Trouble & Sheila that includes you as well. Tony O, shut down the presses. Going Clear, Gibney revoke the movie, roll back the presses, ESMB roll back all the posts and cancel the site.

Turn off the lights. No more communication.

Hey, I've said several times on this message board scientology is actually "much ado about nothing", hmmm, nothing, that reminds me of the static, no time, place, form or event. LOL But hubbard sure as hell made something of nothing, and that is dangerous. Thank god for whistleblowers and critical thinkers, ex's.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
totally disagree.

Great.

Everybody turn off your computers, drop your pens if you are writing a book, go home and put your head in the sand. Yep, that includes you Jesse Prince, DM's dad, Lean's book - just cancel it now. Trouble & Sheila that includes you as well. Tony O, shut down the presses. Going Clear, Gibney revoke the movie, roll back the presses, ESMB roll back all the posts and cancel the site.

Turn off the lights. No more communication.

Hey, I've said several times on this message board scientology is actually "much ado about nothing", hmmm, nothing, that reminds me of the static, no time, place, form or event. LOL But hubbard sure as hell made something of nothing, and that is dangerous. Thank god for whistleblowers and critical thinkers, ex's.

Gib, I think everyone should keep speaking out. Now more than ever! I also think you're entitled to your opinion and absolutely love you, even when we disagree.

I just don't think everyone is going to completely 'get' us. That's true in life, anyway. That doesn't bother me, as long as they understand that the cult of Scientology is completely dangerous, evil and revolting and it keeps them, their family and friends OUT.
 

Veda

Sponsor
praying_girl.jpg



Scientology, for decades, had been in a propaganda "war." This is also a "war" of lawsuits, spying, infiltration, front groups, hired or duped scholars and apologists, blackmail, and bribery.

Scientology wants to be identified as a "religion" and as a "faith" to the "wogs."

Scientology would love it if people thought the main problem with Scientology was that's it's a "religion," a "faith," and a "belief."

Theroux' movie is fine as it is. It presents information and is also entertaining.

It's probably not fair to expect him to understand Scientology's decades long efforts to shift public opinion on the above mentioned points.

However, at least others, including some of us, can understand it.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
totally disagree.

Great.

Everybody turn off your computers, drop your pens if you are writing a book, go home and put your head in the sand. Yep, that includes you Jesse Prince, DM's dad, Lean's book - just cancel it now. Trouble & Sheila that includes you as well. Tony O, shut down the presses. Going Clear, Gibney revoke the movie, roll back the presses, ESMB roll back all the posts and cancel the site.

Turn off the lights. No more communication.

Hey, I've said several times on this message board scientology is actually "much ado about nothing", hmmm, nothing, that reminds me of the static, no time, place, form or event. LOL But hubbard sure as hell made something of nothing, and that is dangerous. Thank god for whistleblowers and critical thinkers, ex's.


I see what you are saying (of course) but there might be another way of thinking about it.

There is a war involving Scientology. Scientology started it in the 1950s and 1960s when Hubbard declared war vs homo sapiens (wogs), psychs, investigative journalists, whistleblowers, critics and ex-scientologists. In fact, those were just a few of Scientology's "declared enemies". The complete list is actually humiliatingly long and paranoid beyond belief (e.g. the "twelve world bankers", the "Fifth Invader Force", "Xenu" who is imprisoned in a mountain for eternity, et al).

Wars are fought in many theaters and with a wide spectrum of tactics and diverse military resources. World War II, for example, was a war that could have very easily been lost to Nazi Germany. However, ever conceivable effort was thrown against Hitler whether small or large--or even speculative. This can very favorably (and analogously) used in the war vs Scientology.

Consider this. The Allies used so many different ways of vanquishing or reducing the strength and resources of the Nazis:


  • AIR FORCE (Bombing, reconnaissance...)
  • ARMY (pitched land battles, tank warfare, artillery bombardments...)
  • MARINES (offensive assaults, Normandy Invasion...)
  • NAVY (Sea warfare, launching platform for bombers...)
  • ALLIANCES (USA, Britain, USSR, Australia, Canada...)
  • INTELLIGENCE NETWORKS (Espionage, sabotage...)
  • PROPAGANDA & DISINFORMATION (Undermining Axis efforts and will to fight)
  • ADVANCED WEAPONS DEVELOPMENT (see Hiroshima, Nagasaki...)

Likewise, in the war Scientology is currently waging against honest people, there are countless "weapons" and "resources" (a few examples below):


  • BOOKS: Ortega's "Unbreakable Miss Lovely", Going Clear", "Blown For Good", "Messiah or Madman", "A Piece of Blue Sky", "The Scandal of Scientology", "Barefaced Messiah", "Inside Scientology", "Beyond Belief", "Counterfeit Dreams", et al.
  • DOCUMENTARIES:, Gibney's "Going Clear", Theroux's "My Scn Movie", et al.
  • WEBSITES: "Underground Bunker", "ESMB", "Something Can Be Done About It", "Operation Clambake", "Why We Protest", et al.
  • CIVIL LITIGATION: Dozens of lawsuits vs Narconnon, Monique Rathbun vs. RTC, COS, Miscavige, Ray Jeffries' successful suits, Wallersheim, Armstrong, et al.
  • ACTIVISTS, PROTESTERS & BLOGGERS: Anonymous, Tory Christman, Marty Rathbun, Karen De la Carriere/Jeff Augustine...
  • HONEST & HONORABLE CELEBRITIES: Jason Beghe, Leah Remini, Paul Haggis, Nicole Kidman, Katie Holmes, Lisa Marie Presley, et al.
  • SATIRISTS & COMEDIANS: Saturday Night Live's "Church of Neurotology", Steven Colbert's multiple lampoonings, Jim Carrey jokes, Bill Maher ("Religiosity" movie), Kathy Griffin (multiple stand up comedy routines), et al.

See where is this going?

All of these wonderful efforts collaboratively & collectively help to bring down the monstrosity known as Scientology.

Water, lapping against the immovable granite rocks. And very, very slowly and gradually eroding it.

Wave by wave.

Every single wave, large or small, counts. . .


Wave_erosion_on_a_Portland_Cliff_-_geograph.org.uk_-_109895.jpg
 
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Gib

Crusader
I see what you are saying (of course) but there might be another way of thinking about it.

There is a war involving Scientology. Scientology started it in the 1950s and 1960s when Hubbard declared war vs homo sapiens (wogs), psychs, investigative journalists, whistleblowers, critics and ex-scientologists. In fact, those were just a few of Scientology's "declared enemies". The complete list is actually humiliatingly long and paranoid beyond belief (e.g. the "twelve world bankers", the "Fifth Invader Force", "Xenu" who is imprisoned in a mountain for eternity, et al).

Wars are fought in many theaters and with a wide spectrum of tactics and diverse military resources. World War II, for example, was a war that could have very easily been lost to Nazi Germany. However, ever conceivable effort was thrown against Hitler whether small or large--or even speculative. This can very favorably (and analogously) used in the war vs Scientology.

Consider this. The Allies used so many different ways of vanquishing or reducing the strength and resources of the Nazis:


  • AIR FORCE (Bombing, reconnaissance...)
  • ARMY (pitched land battles, tank warfare, artillery bombardments...)
  • MARINES (offensive assaults, Normandy Invasion...)
  • NAVY (Sea warfare, launching platform for bombers...)
  • ALLIANCES (USA, Britain, USSR, Australia, Canada...)
  • INTELLIGENCE NETWORKS (Espionage, sabotage...)
  • PROPAGANDA & DISINFORMATION (Undermining Axis efforts and will to fight)
  • ADVANCED WEAPONS DEVELOPMENT (see Hiroshima, Nagasaki...)

Likewise, in the war Scientology is currently waging against honest people, there are countless "weapons" and "resources" (a few examples below):


  • BOOKS: "Going Clear", "Blown For Good", "Messiah or Madman", "A Piece of Blue Sky", "The Scandal of Scientology", "Barefaced Messiah", "Inside Scientology", "Beyond Belief", "Counterfeit Dreams", et al.
  • DOCUMENTARIES: Ortega's "Unbreakable Miss Lovely", Gibney's "Going Clear", Theroux's "My Scn Movie", et al.
  • WEBSITES: "Underground Bunker", "ESMB", "Something Can Be Done About It", "Operation Clambake", "Why We Protest", et al.
  • CIVIL LITIGATION: Dozens of lawsuits vs Narconnon, Monique Rathbun vs. RTC, COS, Miscavige, Ray Jeffries' successful suits, Wallersheim, Armstrong, et al.
  • ACTIVISTS, PROTESTERS & BLOGGERS: Anonymous, Tory Christman, Marty Rathbun, Karen De la Carriere/Jeff Augustine...
  • HONEST & HONORABLE CELEBRITIES: Jason Beghe, Leah Remini, Paul Haggis, Nicole Kidman, Katie Holmes, Lisa Marie Presley, et al.
  • SATIRISTS & COMEDIANS: Saturday Night Live's "Church of Neurotology", Steven Colbert's multiple lampoonings, Jim Carrey jokes, Bill Maher ("Religiosity" movie), Kathy Griffin (multiple stand up comedy routines), et al.

See where is this going?

All of these wonderful efforts collaboratively & collectively help to bring down the monstrosity known as Scientology.

Water, lapping against the immovable granite rocks. And very, very slowly and gradually eroding it.

Wave by wave.

Every single wave, large or small, counts. . .


Wave_erosion_on_a_Portland_Cliff_-_geograph.org.uk_-_109895.jpg

Totally agree.

as Chuck Beatty has said, in hubbards final words to Sarge, I (hubbard) failed, and I'm not returning.

If only the true true believers still in knew that.

DM sure as hell knows that.

And I'll say it again, no clears or Ot's. And that is what is missing from the documentaries, for scientology is about producing a clear or ot.

If somebody really knew about scientology, and looked at the grade chart, and followed the life of a person who had done all the levels, and then really looked, they would see nobody achieved clear or ot, and that would be a good documentary. For the truth.
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Originally Posted by I told you I was trouble and quoted and highlighted by Gib


I'm aware that I see things very differently to many and that I have a tendency to simplify (often due to sheer boredom) but looking back at something that had such a huge effect on our lives was always going to be hard to justify and explain even to each other and there may be a tendency to try and make it seem more complicated than it was.

I always remove generational scientologists from any of my more serious thoughts on the cofs because they were in a different situation entirely.

From where I now see things the cult was only as complicated as we each made it and whether we call it faith based, fear based, brainwashing and lies based or gullibility based (or a combination of all) in the end it adds up to the same thing ... it was and it remains a ridiculous cult which sadly we all got sucked in to for our own individual reasons and in the main (as far as I can tell) were at a young, tender and vulnerable age when it happened ... but I doubt if many (in the real world) care about the details and nuances (and especially when making a documentary or movie) and neither should they because it isn't about us or being made for us, people are able and allowed to form an opinion based on what they do know or even feel to be the truth, they will hopefully never become obsessive over thinkers concerning scientology ... there are so many really serious things going on in the world that actually matter.

To try now to make others (especially those in the business of entertainment) understand things from our viewpoints just makes us look ridiculous after a certain point ... the movie sounds brilliant, it will do what we all want it to do and based in part on what Karen (who was involved) said in an earlier post I don't buy that Louis Theroux was out of his depth, he just made choices based on the time he had available and on what he felt it was important to cover ... for his paying audience.

Come at me bro (I've always wanted to say that).


totally disagree.

Great.

Everybody turn off your computers, drop your pens if you are writing a book, go home and put your head in the sand. Yep, that includes you Jesse Prince, DM's dad, Lean's book - just cancel it now. Trouble & Sheila that includes you as well. Tony O, shut down the presses. Going Clear, Gibney revoke the movie, roll back the presses, ESMB roll back all the posts and cancel the site.

Turn off the lights. No more communication.

Hey, I've said several times on this message board scientology is actually "much ado about nothing", hmmm, nothing, that reminds me of the static, no time, place, form or event. LOL But hubbard sure as hell made something of nothing, and that is dangerous. Thank god for whistleblowers and critical thinkers, ex's.




:melodramatic:

Settle down Gib ... I said "after a certain point" and in this instance I was talking purely in regard to this movie.

Criticising Louis Theroux himself and saying he was "out of his depth with scientology" is laughable, he wasn't trying to become a scientologist (and I doubt he carries a demo kit or a tehk dictionary) he was just making a friggin movie and it sounds as we're lucky he didn't speak to some of us because he may have decided we're all as mad as a bag of frogs and whacked that into the script too.
 
.
.


It's all quite simple, really.

Scientology is so fail, that when a person tried to find something good to say about them, so he could be nice about them, because he failed to see that scientology was so fucked up, even though it's been all over the media, and he is a media person, and he likes to be nice, as he creates ridicule of his subjects, which I don't disapprove of in some cases, especially with scientology, that he was unable to do so, because scientology footbulleted itself, which was rather opportune really, because for one thing, if Louie had succeeded in making a kindly slanted movie about scientology he could have gotten egg on his face, especially since Going Clear had came out, I assume when Louie was well underway with his project, and last minute salvage actions had to be taken, which worked out for him in the end, probably, but he did reveal that some kind of trolley was off the tracks, so to speak, but phew!!! saved.

Even God, who is infinitely good, has a few fuck ups to talk about, when he's ready. But I love his flowers and mountains and things. I think Louie came out better than God. Because at least his movie is damaging scientology and that outfit is downright evil, but God created ISIS etc.
 

Soul of Ginnungagab

Patron with Honors
... snipped ...

A note to Soul of Ginnungagab. I don't understand how you concluded this about my post:

"HelluvaHoax!, actually underlined that faith is a crucial part.."

Actually, I actually never posted that. I don't even think that.

... snipped ...

Oh sorry for the way I worded it. What I meant was a reference to all those catastrophic things you mentioned which scientologists go through and yet stay with the subject for ages. That underlines how strong their faith in the subject actually is.

***
 
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Free to shine

Shiny & Free
There are some really good reviews on this, perhaps because Louis Theroux is so respected for his unpredictable results.

More interesting is the way that the film does what Gibney didn’t, and really engages with its sources, namely with Rathbun. The film’s as much a character study of him (“an embittered apostate,” as Theroux suggests to him at one point, echoing Scientology’s spin against him) as it is an examination of the religion as a whole, and he’s a complex and sometimes contradictory man. That we don’t quite get a sense of why he allowed himself to buy into his beliefs for so long, or into his current spiritual practices, is less the film’s fault than a by-product of Rathbun’s rage when Theroux delves into his darker side — as with the religion he used to run interference for, he closes down when the tough questions are asked.

It’s when members of Scientology break their own rules and do get involved that the film really soars. Theroux’s attempts at approaching the church’s buildings are invariably met with wild overreactions, normally from senior member Catherine Fraser, and the filmmakers find absurd, almost Kafka-esque humor in the scenes where (alleged) Scientologists intimidate Rathbun and his team with their own cameras, usually with deep ineptness. It’s these scenes that are probably the most damning, and prove that however rigorous Gibney might have been, Theroux’s understated approach using mockery and British stubbornness might prove far more damaging.

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplayl...ith-documentary-my-scientology-movie-20151019
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
There are some really good reviews on this, perhaps because Louis Theroux is so respected for his unpredictable results.

More interesting is the way that the film does what Gibney didn’t, and really engages with its sources, namely with Rathbun. The film’s as much a character study of him (“an embittered apostate,” as Theroux suggests to him at one point, echoing Scientology’s spin against him) as it is an examination of the religion as a whole, and he’s a complex and sometimes contradictory man. That we don’t quite get a sense of why he allowed himself to buy into his beliefs for so long, or into his current spiritual practices, is less the film’s fault than a by-product of Rathbun’s rage when Theroux delves into his darker side — as with the religion he used to run interference for, he closes down when the tough questions are asked.

It’s when members of Scientology break their own rules and do get involved that the film really soars. Theroux’s attempts at approaching the church’s buildings are invariably met with wild overreactions, normally from senior member Catherine Fraser, and the filmmakers find absurd, almost Kafka-esque humor in the scenes where (alleged) Scientologists intimidate Rathbun and his team with their own cameras, usually with deep ineptness. It’s these scenes that are probably the most damning, and prove that however rigorous Gibney might have been, Theroux’s understated approach using mockery and British stubbornness might prove far more damaging.

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplayl...ith-documentary-my-scientology-movie-20151019



Unfortunately I have the feeling that Marty will come across as a bit of a dick ... it was always on the cards and perhaps he should have done more research (on Louis Theroux and his "British approach") before he decided to contribute because he was never going to run the show even if (initially) he was allowed to imagine otherwise.

I can't wait to see it (the movie that is ... not Marty possibly looking silly, I'll be happier if he doesn't but I'm not holding my breath).
 
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Gib

Crusader


:melodramatic:

Settle down Gib ... I said "after a certain point" and in this instance I was talking purely in regard to this movie.

Criticising Louis Theroux himself and saying he was "out of his depth with scientology" is laughable, he wasn't trying to become a scientologist (and I doubt he carries a demo kit or a tehk dictionary) he was just making a friggin movie and it sounds as we're lucky he didn't speak to some of us because he may have decided we're all as mad as a bag of frogs and whacked that into the script too.

I never criticized Louis.

I never said he was out of his depth.

I never said he was trying to become a scientologist.

I recognize he made a docu based on his understanding, I haven't seen it yet.

Now, to say "he didn't speak to some of us because he may have decided we're all as mad as a bag of frogs and whacked that into the script too",

I think that is a wrong conclusion on your part. You even called yourself mad as hell with that statement.

I'd rather say we were stupid as hell.

And yet we have big bucks players involved in the game of scientology, such as Bob Duggan, many docs, many celebrities,

oh the rhetoric and creation of sublime abounds, scientology, as a slogan taken from Star Trek - where no man has gone before - sublime - scientology. LOL
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Emphasis mine.

I never criticized Louis.

I never said he was out of his depth.

I never said he was trying to become a scientologist.


I recognize he made a docu based on his understanding, I haven't seen it yet.

Now, to say "he didn't speak to some of us because he may have decided we're all as mad as a bag of frogs and whacked that into the script too",

I think that is a wrong conclusion on your part. You even called yourself mad as hell with that statement.

I'd rather say we were stupid as hell.

And yet we have big bucks players involved in the game of scientology, such as Bob Duggan, many docs, many celebrities,

oh the rhetoric and creation of sublime abounds, scientology, as a slogan taken from Star Trek - where no man has gone before - sublime - scientology. LOL




Phew ... here we go again.

Cool, you say stupid as hell if it makes you happier ... and I didn't say that you said any of the above ... you chose to involve yourself in my posts (as you often do) then proceeded to misunderstand most of what I said (as you often do).

 

Gib

Crusader
Emphasis mine.






Phew ... here we go again.

Cool, you say stupid as hell if it makes you happier ... and I didn't say that you said any of the above ... you chose to involve yourself in my posts (as you often do) then proceeded to misunderstand most of what I said (as you often do).


LOL, you remind me of shermanspeak, doublespeak. LOl
 

ThetanExterior

Gold Meritorious Patron

Boomima

Patron with Honors
Most people don't think about Scientology being an religion or really care, in my experience. They think of South Park, Tom Cruise, and whatever the Tampa Bay Times has published about them (at least in Florida). As far as the general public is concerned, I don't see how arguing that particular point is going to turn anyone's opinions around.

I understand why it's important here and to scholars of religion.

Louis Theroux calling it a religion is not going to help the CoS turn opinion around.
 
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