Love

[I told you I was trouble]

The nature of the venue makes it possible to enjoy it ITYIWT. It isn't a thing I need or seek but the intensity of the dialogue makes it virtually inevitable.

I would like to remind everyone to be as aware not only of the presence of lurkers many of whom may be very intelligent and honest and this board is presumed to have long term importance as an archive and ad hom is a piss poor way to support a polemic. It is a weak and losing tactic to hurl ad hom at a person who gives heartfelt expression of personal belief supported by honest account of firsthand experience and has and displays great affection and respect for those of different opinion particularly those harmed by jackanapes in orgs exploiting cheap labor and misapplying both tech and policy especially certain questionable policies, acting in violation of the creed of the church and the true spirit and ideals of the work...

Understood (I was being facetious when I said 'I think he enjoys the ad hom from some people').

I've always tried to post with our current and future audience in mind but I abhor bullies and wannabe gurus and usually feel the need to try and trip them over and hope they fall flat on their faces when I see them in constant action.

I know that you were not deliberately trying to upset anyone on this thread and that you have genuine empathy for people overall but when someone here is having a rough time it probably isn't ideal to tell them repeatedly that hubbard was a genius (or anything similar) unless you actually want your head ripped off.

You know my thoughts on hubbard, I've been clear on that since day one, he was a narcissistic waste of space (as is DM) but I'm happy that you received and more importantly retained something good from your involvement in the cult and absolutely respect your right to mention it ... you may just want to choose the time and place with a bit more care though.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

As much as anyone dislikes or disapproves of Hubbard as much as anyone might dismiss ALL of his theories saying anything good therein can be found elsewhere...

I would still contend he earned and is due a measure of respect, the same as Arthur C. Clarke who predicted the use of communications satelites for comparing the mind to a computer in DMSMH and articulating the function of "the file clerk" a tight analogy of "the search engine" which makes the internet possible.


I think I mostly choose the hills I fight on fairly well; e.g. I don't punch in on Helluva Hoax's primary threads. I consider HH to be Prince of Posters on this board and put to a vote I believe the regulars here would endorse the title by acclamation. Also Roger B. is someone with whom I don't contend (don't know what happened to my font ?????) as since the banning of Mystic he should now be thought "The Grand Old Man of ESMB"

I think I'm consistently deferential about direct contention with those due some TLC

but on this thread I would contend JS protesteth too much, that her wounds have healed and her bruises faded and she is not giving honest contention or just complaint but rather engaging in some lively TR-O Bullbait


Which is not in the least inappropriate to a thread with the title Love"

 

[I told you I was trouble]

As much as anyone dislikes or disapproves of Hubbard as much as anyone might dismiss ALL of his theories saying anything good therein can be found elsewhere...

I would still contend he earned and is due a measure of respect, the same as Arthur C. Clarke who predicted the use of communications satelites for comparing the mind to a computer in DMSMH and articulating the function of "the file clerk" a tight analogy of "the search engine" which makes the internet possible.


I think I mostly choose the hills I fight on fairly well; e.g. I don't punch in on Helluva Hoax's primary threads. I consider HH to be Prince of Posters on this board and put to a vote I believe the regulars here would endorse the title by acclamation. Also Roger B. is someone with whom I don't contend (don't know what happened to my font ?????) as since the banning of Mystic he should now be thought "The Grand Old Man of ESMB"

I think I'm consistently deferential about direct contention with those due some TLC

but on this thread I would contend JS protesteth too much, that her wounds have healed and her bruises faded and she is not giving honest contention or just complaint but rather engaging in some lively TR-O Bullbait


Which is not in the least inappropriate to a thread with the title Love"

Now you're just baiting Birdie ... and that isn't very appropriate either.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Now you're just baiting Birdie ... and that isn't very appropriate either.

???????

I don't grasp why this could be seen as baiting

??????

 

[EZ Linus]

I've always tried to post with our current and future audience in mind but I abhor bullies and wannabe gurus and usually feel the need to try and trip them over and hope they fall flat on their faces when I see them in constant action.

I know that you were not deliberately trying to upset anyone on this thread and that you have genuine empathy for people overall but when someone here is having a rough time it probably isn't ideal to tell them repeatedly that hubbard was a genius (or anything similar) unless you actually want your head ripped off.

I want to say for the record I do not feel I am bullying by protecting someone else (JS), or protecting my view that children should be taken advantage of or sexually abused (me and others) because they a viewed as little adults. I don't see this, or any of my views as heartless or bigoted, or me trying to be a guru, etc. The fact I don't want to communicate with someone (CP) with respect to my viewpoint is my right. I don't need to be called names for it (not that you did). I also don't need to be thrown sad information that I could never possibly know about his child and then, on that note, be further called heartless, because that is NOT a reason why I don't want to engage. I don't want to engage because I don't want to expel my energy talking about how great Hubbard was, nor do I want to debate it. That is not why I am here. Period, end of story, and I am sorry for his loss. If I am gutless for not wanting to have conversations with someone I highly disagree with, then let that be. I don't need to be loved by him either. I am not a Christian and do not need that sort of patronizing either. This is exactly what I'm talking about--why I don't want to deal with a button-pushing troll. You can think the doesn't deliberately do these things, but I have to disagree with you on that. He eggs people on in his words. Or tries to. It's not my fault if other people don't see it. I'm merely pointing this out. Read his posts again, his responses where he speaks to me or of me to others and tell me he's not trying to get a new response from me after I made it clear I don't want to engage. That's not deliberate?

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I want to say for the record I do not feel I am bullying by protecting someone else (JS), or protecting my view that children should be taken advantage of or sexually abused (me and others) because they a viewed as little adults. I don't see this, or any of my views as heartless or bigoted, or me trying to be a guru, etc. The fact I don't want to communicate with someone (CP) with respect to my viewpoint is my right. I don't need to be called names for it (not that you did). I also don't need to be thrown sad information that I could never possibly know about his child and then, on that note, be further called heartless, because that is NOT a reason why I don't want to engage. I don't want to engage because I don't want to expel my energy talking about how great Hubbard was, nor do I want to debate it. That is not why I am here. Period, end of story, and I am sorry for his loss. If I am gutless for not wanting to have conversations with someone I highly disagree with, then let that be. I don't need to be loved by him either. I am not a Christian and do not need that sort of patronizing either. This is exactly what I'm talking about--why I don't want to deal with a button-pushing troll. You can think the doesn't deliberately do these things, but I have to disagree with you on that. He eggs people on in his words. Or tries to. It's not my fault if other people don't see it. I'm merely pointing this out. Read his posts again, his responses where he speaks to me or of me to others and tell me he's not trying to get a new response from me after I made it clear I don't want to engage. That's not deliberate?

I just re-read the post that you are referring to (of mine) and it wasn't very clear ... but I was agreeing with Birdie that I'm fully aware that we have an audience (non members and lurkers) and I try and keep that in mind whenever I post. Sometimes though I do respond to bullies and guru wannabes in a way that some may find abrasive and I can't/won't promise to stop.

My comments had nothing at all to do with you or anything you have said (and yes, I do know Birdie can be annoying beyond belief, we've had a few tussles ourselves over the years ... he has a very forgiving and warm heart though and I admire that).

ESMB will never be exactly what each of us want it to be, it's a message board and there are many opposing viewpoints and opinions but overall I still think it's the best place for someone to come if they want honesty and facts about the cult and are prepared for any flak that may fly ... it was never meant to be a place of healing although for many of us it has been just that (myself very much included).

 

[EZ Linus]

I just re-read the post that you are referring to (of mine) and it wasn't very clear ... but I was agreeing with Birdie that I'm fully aware that we have an audience (non members and lurkers) and I try and keep that in mind whenever I post. Sometimes though I do respond to bullies and guru wannabes in a way that some may find abrasive and I can't/won't promise to stop.

My comments had nothing at all to do with you or anything you have said (and yes, I do know Birdie can be annoying beyond belief, we've had a few tussles ourselves over the years ... he has a very forgiving and warm heart though and I admire that).

ESMB will never be exactly what each of us want it to be, it's a message board and there are many opposing viewpoints and opinions but overall I still think it's the best place for someone to come if they want honesty and facts about the cult and are prepared for any flak that may fly ... it was never meant to be a place of healing although for many of us it has been just that (myself very much included).

Well, I'm happy to know you weren't referring to me. I have never found you to be abrasive. Just honest with your opinions. I agree with a lot of them. Sometimes I don't, but I find that to be just fine.

I understand that the board was never meant to be a place for healing. It's a nice side effect, as you have also experienced. That's a good thing. It's still a reason I am here though, even if it wasn't set up to be a place allocated for that purpose.

I find that, because I had been stupefied all the years in the cult, then in fear for many of my years out, then complacent and apologetic of Scientology, that finally getting angry about the injustices is at last the appropriate reaction to have about the entire experience. So I do tend to get preachy. If I come off like that, I really apologize if that seems abrasive, even though you weren't talking about me in your post before last. I just wanted to say that.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

I want to say for the record I do not feel I am bullying by protecting someone else (JS), or protecting my view that children should be taken advantage of or sexually abused (me and others) because they a viewed as little adults. I don't see this, or any of my views as heartless or bigoted, or me trying to be a guru, etc. The fact I don't want to communicate with someone (CP) with respect to my viewpoint is my right. I don't need to be called names for it (not that you did). I also don't need to be thrown sad information that I could never possibly know about his child and then, on that note, be further called heartless, because that is NOT a reason why I don't want to engage. I don't want to engage because I don't want to expel my energy talking about how great Hubbard was, nor do I want to debate it. That is not why I am here. Period, end of story, and I am sorry for his loss. If I am gutless for not wanting to have conversations with someone I highly disagree with, then let that be. I don't need to be loved by him either. I am not a Christian and do not need that sort of patronizing either. This is exactly what I'm talking about--why I don't want to deal with a button-pushing troll. You can think the doesn't deliberately do these things, but I have to disagree with you on that. He eggs people on in his words. Or tries to. It's not my fault if other people don't see it. I'm merely pointing this out. Read his posts again, his responses where he speaks to me or of me to others and tell me he's not trying to get a new response from me after I made it clear I don't want to engage. That's not deliberate?

I would love to comment on this post but the post itself makes clear EZL prefers I do not...

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Well, I'm happy to know you weren't referring to me. I have never found you to be abrasive. Just honest with your opinions. I agree with a lot of them. Sometimes I don't, but I find that to be just fine.

I understand that the board was never meant to be a place for healing. It's a nice side effect, as you have also experienced. That's a good thing. It's still a reason I am here though, even if it wasn't set up to be a place allocated for that purpose.

I find that, because I had been stupefied all the years in the cult, then in fear for many of my years out, then complacent and apologetic of Scientology, that finally getting angry about the injustices is at last the appropriate reaction to have about the entire experience. So I do tend to get preachy. If I come off like that, I really apologize if that seems abrasive, even though you weren't talking about me in your post before last. I just wanted to say that.

And it's a shame I can't hit the RWQ button to note that after years of stupefied apathy EZL finally rose up to fear until sufficient energy was gained for the covert hostility of "complacent and apologetic" which grew in most healthy fashion to anger over which EZL has gain sufficient command to be aqntagonistic.

Perhaps after getting bored for a few years EZL will reach a condition of well-being which will allow him to enjoy conversing with me w/o feeling I am condescending...

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Well, I'm happy to know you weren't referring to me. I have never found you to be abrasive. Just honest with your opinions. I agree with a lot of them. Sometimes I don't, but I find that to be just fine.

I understand that the board was never meant to be a place for healing. It's a nice side effect, as you have also experienced. That's a good thing. It's still a reason I am here though, even if it wasn't set up to be a place allocated for that purpose.

I find that, because I had been stupefied all the years in the cult, then in fear for many of my years out, then complacent and apologetic of Scientology, that finally getting angry about the injustices is at last the appropriate reaction to have about the entire experience. So I do tend to get preachy. If I come off like that, I really apologize if that seems abrasive, even though you weren't talking about me in your post before last. I just wanted to say that.

I've never noticed you being either preachy or abrasive but even if you were it wouldn't be a problem (for me) because you're not likely to be preaching about the so called 'positives' in scientology!



I hope you'll soon feel comfortable enough here to express yourself however you wish to. I found it exhilarating when I joined ESMB and was finally able to say exactly what I wanted to say knowing that I was among friends and (mostly) like minded people ... but that was 11 years ago and I suppose the board has gradually changed. Many of us may not be as responsive as we once were to certain post-cult issues because we have already thrashed things out so many times and are over it.

I wish you had been here years ago but I'm also pretty sure you will still find it a huge relief to just spit it all out whenever you feel like it here and I encourage you to do just that.

Ignore any stupid comments (like the one above from Birdie) though I understand that's easier said than done.

 

[lotus]

Perhaps after getting bored for a few years EZL will reach a condition of well-being which will allow him to enjoy conversing with me w/o feeling I am condescending...

A great master is born!
Hallelujia!

 

[EZ Linus]

I've never noticed you being either preachy or abrasive but even if you were it wouldn't be a problem (for me) because you're not likely to be preaching about the so called 'positives' in scientology!



I hope you'll soon feel comfortable enough here to express yourself however you wish to. I found it exhilarating when I joined ESMB and was finally able to say exactly what I wanted to say knowing that I was among friends and (mostly) like minded people ... but that was 11 years ago and I suppose the board has gradually changed. Many of us may not be as responsive as we once were to certain post-cult issues because we have already thrashed things out so many times and are over it.

I wish you had been here years ago but I'm also pretty sure you will still find it a huge relief to just spit it all out whenever you feel like it here and I encourage you to do just that.

Ignore any stupid comments (like the one above from Birdie) though I understand that's easier said than done.

I've actually been here longer than you think. I lurked for many years before posting. I was part of the alt.scn newsgroup many years before that too and only posted once there the first week I left scn in 2000.

I have watched this forum change. Some of it is not so much for the worse because it is jam packed with people that have left and that tells a newbe a lot about scn in and of itself.

I think Leah's show has done wonders. Going Clear, before that, brought it front and center. It's like what South Park did after more people got on the Internet.

Now, there just needs to be legal justice.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Legal (and Lawful) justice allows the church to exist with a significant amount of autonomy.

Co$ members have and are well known to use civil courts to seek redress for wrongs but CoS will always suits claiming back wages in terms of minimum wage as well as copyright battles; I'm surprised the main man for developing NOTs bothered to sue; intellectual property right law is very clear on that sort of thing

But methinks you speaking of something else needs legal justice...

Would you expand on your theme?