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LRH: Another Fraudulent Contradiction

JustSheila

Crusader
Hey , Free Being me part of my post was for JustSheila and now reflects that .
I find projection and many other phenomena to be caused by specific triggers and state that .

Regarding a generality , I have a specific idea of a method of mind control requiring and relying on hypnosis that incorporates elements of many others within it .
What you call a generality is claimed to be a fallacy by Hubbard not me .

It is a generality to call someone nice but may be true .
It is generality to call shaped charge impacts on defenseless unshielded people fatal but far more often true than not .
It is a generality to say PTSD will result from severe , repeated , habitual beatings to children but generally true .
The generality claim is a dismissal without close examination of facts . If someone says bloggers are jerks , I may be a jerk and by dismissing the claim you may not look and see I am in fact a jerk .

Just saying a claim includes a generality is a very poor substitute for inspection and careful consideration .
Many generalities are very often true but not all .

Humans cannot survive long in hard vacuum a pure generality - care to step out of an airlock ?
Humans cannot impregnate otters , very general but a pattern many would agree with .
Vivisection is painful for humans , another generality , no dissent there ?

The term generality is itself an ambiguous term and that opens the door to using it when it suits you and not when it does not - that is what Hubbard did and trined his slaves to .

How about some other generalities . Most people do not want to be fed to alligators while alive and screaming .
Napalm covering you while ignited does not feel good .

Why I did not say which brand napalm or what alligators or...
See , some general ideas are accepted and dare I say correct .


My Ideas are not vague they are delineated at great length and terms defined and authorities referenced and specific sequences of what happens and how and what long and short term effects are and so it is not actually fair or proper to term my ideas as generalities in my analysis or opinion .

They may be wrong but they do not fit the ideas of broad , ill defined , vague or lacking integration with others that misleading generalities are shunned for .

But hey what do I know .
This is complete gobbledegoop. Shaped charged impacts? Habitual beatings of children? Fed to alligators? Napalm? What a mishmoshed mess. Your post is nothing but a bunch of unrelated emotional metaphors strung together to evoke a response and puff up the importance of your viewpoints over everyone else's. Bullshit.

You were doing alright when you were on the Study Tech and a few other things, but you've gone way off the boards.

That's not an analysis.

Have you ever heard of the scientific method? This is not it.

Try it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
>snipped for brevity and the rest of the post made no sense< Regarding a generality , I have a specific idea of a method of mind control requiring and relying on hypnosis that incorporates elements of many others within it.

I do ask you please reread my previous post. I'm not interested in who's right, more right, wrong or wronger so perhaps you missed my point regarding cult recovery. It was not just about your hypnosis generality but a part of the cult mindset. Let's talk here, two human beings without pretense. Yes?

I understand fully this is your method of cult recovery. I also understand when discovering the psychology of cultist manipulation (for those who are interested) it can be a holy shit, wtf is this when getting into the mechanics of it. I also understand your desire to spread the info far and wide for everyone's benefit.

If you want to believe hypnosis is the linch pin of Elcon's methodology then go for it. But I will ask you this. Is any of the following hypnosis?

  • Fallacies
  • Rhetoric
  • Cognitive dissonance
  • Traumatic bonding
  • Fear, Obligation, Guilt (FOG)
  • Operant conditioning
  • Lies
  • Propaganda
  • Milieu control
  • Peer Pressure
  • Love bombing
  • Grooming

None of the above methods of persuasion have anything to do with hypnosis yet are hallmarks of cults and $cientology in particular.

Now the discredited psychiatric Abreaction Hypno-Therapy Elcon twisted into the foundation of Dianetics and later $cientology with his repetitive "auditing & training" is a different matter. On that point I agree Elcon most definitely incorporated hypnotics upon his followers mentally/emotionally abusively dissociating them. It seems to vary from individual to individual and in some cases no effects at all.

I've seen many an Ex go down the manipulation rabbit hole (myself included) chasing Elcon's circular mind fuck and some never come up for air and sunshine again. Please don't fall for that.
 
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Hey , Free Being me part of my post was for JustSheila and now reflects that .
I find projection and many other phenomena to be caused by specific triggers and state that .

Regarding a generality , I have a specific idea of a method of mind control requiring and relying on hypnosis that incorporates elements of many others within it .
What you call a generality is claimed to be a fallacy by Hubbard not me .

It is a generality to call someone nice but may be true .
It is generality to call shaped charge impacts on defenseless unshielded people fatal but far more often true than not .
It is a generality to say PTSD will result from severe , repeated , habitual beatings to children but generally true .
The generality claim is a dismissal without close examination of facts . If someone says bloggers are jerks , I may be a jerk and by dismissing the claim you may not look and see I am in fact a jerk .

Just saying a claim includes a generality is a very poor substitute for inspection and careful consideration .
Many generalities are very often true but not all .

Humans cannot survive long in hard vacuum a pure generality - care to step out of an airlock ?
Humans cannot impregnate otters , very general but a pattern many would agree with .
Vivisection is painful for humans , another generality , no dissent there ?

The term generality is itself an ambiguous term and that opens the door to using it when it suits you and not when it does not - that is what Hubbard did and trined his slaves to .

How about some other generalities . Most people do not want to be fed to alligators while alive and screaming .
Napalm covering you while ignited does not feel good .

Why I did not say which brand napalm or what alligators or...
See , some general ideas are accepted and dare I say correct .


My Ideas are not vague they are delineated at great length and terms defined and authorities referenced and specific sequences of what happens and how and what long and short term effects are and so it is not actually fair or proper to term my ideas as generalities in my analysis or opinion .

They may be wrong but they do not fit the ideas of broad , ill defined , vague or lacking integration with others that misleading generalities are shunned for .

But hey what do I know .

"Regarding a generality , I have a specific idea of a method of mind control requiring and relying on hypnosis that incorporates elements of many others within it .
What you call a generality is claimed to be a fallacy by Hubbard not me" .


Would you be prepared to write this up as a thesis statement?
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
"Regarding a generality , I have a specific idea of a method of mind control requiring and relying on hypnosis that incorporates elements of many others within it .
What you call a generality is claimed to be a fallacy by Hubbard not me" .


Would you be prepared to write this up as a thesis statement?

Meanwhile, after warning us of the suppressive nature of generalities, he force fed us one generality after another. Whether you are looking at the conditions (doubt, treason etc.), being "OT", "clear" or whatever horse shit pile Hubbard had for sale were the very generalities he'd warned us of. "Wog" is one of his classic derogatory generalizations of the spiritual condition and cognitive ability of most people on the planet, or lack of. His use of generalizations invariably lead to deep caustic destruction of his targets. Hubbard was the very SP he described in excruciating detail over the years.
 

Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
Regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with the design or concept or goal or EP of OT3 there are two things that are certainties

1) The words "Freedom from Overwhelm" are there.

2) And the spoken words in the lecture which were excerpted in the magazine stated that "Freedom is freedom". And then there is dissing (disrespecting) of the idea of "Freedom from..."

The only way out of this for the true believers is to conclude that the idea of "Freedom from..." is a joke or maybe even suppressive if elicited by someone other than Hubbard.

And if Hubbard elicits "Freedon from..." it is valid because it comes from Hubbard.

I forgot that I started this thread years ago and I thank whoever it was that breathed life into once again.

Thanks

Rd00
 
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Gib

Crusader
Regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with the design or concept or goal or EP of OT3 there are two things that are certainties

1) The words "Freedom from Overwhelm" are there.

2) And the spoken words in the lecture which were excepted in magazine stated that "Freedom is freedom". And then there is dissing (disrespecting) of the idea of "Freedom from..."

The only way out of this for the true believers is to conclude that the idea of "Freedom from..." is a joke or maybe even suppressive if elicited by someone other than Hubbard.

And if Hubbard elicits "Freedon from..." it is valid because it comes from Hubbard.

I forgot that I started this thread years ago and I thank whoever it was that breathed life into once again.

Thanks

Rd00

When I decided I did not want to clear the planet anymore, why I'm in my 50's, that overwhelm went goodbye.

When I realized there are no clears or ot's, why that overwhelm went goodbye.

Thank you lord, for the whistle blowers. (they are known in the COS as PTS/SP)

It's so nice to laugh at all this nonsense by Hubbard. :laugh:
 

mockingbird

Silver Meritorious Patron
So Free Being me brings up a frustrating but important point .

I keep saying Hubbard knowingly used hypnosis as the basis for many actions and efforts as a part of his methods of controlling people to make and retain slaves .
FBM also asks if any of the following are a part of hypnosis . Now I as a person who no longer uses Dianetics and Scientology no longer hypnotize people ( I hope !! )
I also know far less about it than some exes and psychologists and actual hypnotists so I am a strawman for some issues . I also personally have both a broader definition of hypnosis than many others and believe from his own words Hubbard saw much of what he did as hypnotic even if a better education in psychology and rhetoric would have helped him see he mixed and combined many practices to persuade .

I see for the purposes of his persuasion that any method that reduced or inhibited the critical factor and induced or held or triggered trance logic functioned as hypnosis even if called another name in other practices . I believe he saw anything that helped make people controllable via confusion or contradiction or repetition or any other method of hypnosis worked via hypnosis. I also see many or possibly most of his actions to delude and control slaves as being combination techniques using compound methods with others integrated .

I have earlier repeatedly stated he used combined methods of mind control like study tech being at least four methods together .

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?36369-INSIDIOUS-ENSLAVEMENT-STUDY-TECHNOLOGY And
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?36959-PISSED-IT-S-NOT-YOUR-FAULT-

I have several times stated he implanted fallacies to control and fool his victims and used rhetoric and by its broadest definition of any act or method of persuasion hypnosis is a part of the larger subject of rhetoric though the school and style Gib talks of is certainly used to help fool people too , cognitive dissonance is mentioned in Insidious Enslavement and is very important to make and keep a mind vulnerable to manipulation and this is the heart of the confusion method and the double bind : to avoid dissonance submission occurs ( the blankness is the moment of dissonance ) , regarding this I have been communicating with Jon Atack and want to give him credit for pointing out something to me .

I got close to seeing and stating this but not quite right . I will quote directly from an email : " I realized that throughout DMSMH he contradicts himself . I'd read it three times and never noticed . Presumably because the 'blank' that he relates to the mu actually occurs during the cognitive dissonance . Once you have confused someone , you insert the suggestions that will put them under your control('if you knew what was wrong with your mind it , it wouldn't be wrong ' is a favorite). Jon Atack .

Trauma bonding is relevant and certainly occurs and to my limited understanding is not exactly under hypnosis but I would have to investigate that far more to have an educated opinion . Operant conditioning by that name is a grey area - Hubbard's traps often rely on rewarding obedience to his authority which is a key to the hypnosis working and punish doubt , criticism and disagreement which are distinctly resisting hypnotic blind submission . I could see a model that goes either way on this as correct and educational and accurate .If you just said conditioning I would say that is broad enough that hypnosis is a form but for this you could narrow or expand your definitions to be right either way . I definitely believe that term is correct for a description of an activity he attempted and often succeeded at . Lies are not hypnotism exclusively but a pathological liar will try to confuse a victim with lies into blind cooperation and by any name that is hypnosis in function and he certainly lied enough to qualify for any threshold for that .

Fear , Obligation , Guilt is truly a method he played on extensively to break people down and rebuild them as his slaves but not hypnotic as such to me . Although he did mention if you put someone in anxiety you can control them hypnotically so it is a grey area: sometimes yes sometimes no . With grooming words like charm , seduction and conditioning which are synonyms for hypnotize are used so it is a very ambiguous fine line - it really is a matter of semantic hair splitting . Some activities within grooming are clearly not hypnosis and some can be . Propaganda is usually not classified as hypnotism but if certain effects are achieved it is . Really many of the borderline cases are determined by how much you consider influence and directing attention to be hypnotic or not . And they are sometimes if done with certain results but not always capable of producing hypnotic effects . Milieu control has such a broad definition that it can include many forms of mind control including but not limited to hypnosis. I do not see peer pressure or love bombing as hypnotic.

I agree in principle with Steven Hassan's idea that the pre-cult identity is to be cast aside and a cult identity is to replace it and that Hubbard with many techniques from many areas intended to enslave people and he saw confusion and repetition as fundamentals to always rely on and they can function hypnotically and Hubbard always saw it that way .

I have seen hypnosis as a make break point of the con - if you are not in trance logic at some point the insane cult doctrine makes no sense and has too many contradictions , for an adult coming in . Assuming you do thousands of hours of study as I did and really had a similar experience to my own . The subject of children raised in Scientology has other issues to consider and deserves books of its own .

So , I want it to be clear his method was meant to replace identity and combined many forms of hypnosis and many , many other methods including classic style rhetoric for an overall effect that he intended to function as an implant of a slave identity .It is like if you described something with many parts as needing one but the others are there and may be needed as well .Hypnosis is to me a part but there are hundreds of others too .

Now as I said you must have a very broad definition of hypnosis for that to fit your model so not everyone will agree but if they see how they were manipulated well enough to recover or help others that is the main issue . Jon Atack has told me many things on how hypnosis is not really completely accepted and thoroughly examined by science and everything we (people who study and write about it ) say is metaphors for mental processes. It has some validation as existing from studies , experiments and brain scans but a long way to go to not be the "strange uncle " of neuroscience , even if it is my favorite uncle .

I agree to a large extent and see that actual study of structure is needed for validation and that language has a lot of control on what fits and does not. We use vague ideas from the strictest hard science standards like critical factor , trance logic , enthrall , misdirect and others that involve attention and technically any directing of attention involves changes of consciousness and that is what a trance is ( not always deep trance mind you ).

So that is my two cents on this .

I really think the ambiguity of the terms related to hypnosis is the source of this issue . You have to buy into many ideas from this , effectively accepting them as true or you can reject hypnosis wholecloth and for most non-cultists they can live perfectly happy lives never knowing or caring about any of this . I have bought in on them and may be wrong both as to their very existence and if they exist their part in Scientology but hope with more investigation to learn more. I know they helped me greatly in my estimation to throw off and reject Scientology and to reframe my experiences in a way that is not totally complete or certain but much happier , saner and to me more honest and free from contradiction unresolved and examined than Scientology ever did .

Other models may never use hypnosis and honestly convey the methods and harm accurately as conditioning , mind control etc . And so it is a rose by any other name issue but I have found hypnosis terminology to help me . Your mileage and mind control may vary .
 
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