Vinaire
Sponsor
Is there a sense of time when one is "out"?
According to my experience there is no sense of time.
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LRH Now
- Thread starter La La Lou Lou
- Start date
Is there a sense of time when one is "out"?
According to my experience there is no sense of time.
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Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
Don't scoff; Popes are amazing things!
Man, this one always looks so EVIL. The previous ones mostly looked the part, whatever their actual history, but this one....
Paul
flashgordon
Patron with Honors
Is it normal to fear something that you have never experienced before?
If we all have never experienced death before why do we all fear it?
Could it be that the reason we fear death be because we have been throught it before and know on some level what an unpleasant experience it is?
flashgordon
Patron with Honors
If you go out of the agreement with the MEST universe and the MEST universe is only where time exists, one would have no sense of time. Time is a MEST universe thing.
flashgordon
Patron with Honors
No.
Actually, I never did get around to reading that book. Just watered down info of what's contained in the highier books.
Vinaire
Sponsor
One only has to experience loss, and not necessarily death, to be afraid of death. Death is a loss of the body and all the comm lines through the body.
I am not personally aware of comm lines that do not use the body.
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Vinaire
Sponsor
The following is my understanding:
(1) MEST is manifestation of THAT which cannot be described in MEST terms simply because it is beyond MEST.
(2) Anything that is sensed or perceived in any manner would be part of MEST, because "sense" and "perception" are properties confined to the domain of MEST as far as anyone can demonstrate.
(3) If one is sensing anything after the death of the body, then one is still occupying some MEST identity that may be finer than gross body.
(4) Any mock ups, between-lives-areas, if sensed would be part of the MEST universe, though they may be assigned to a different dimension.
(5) The "spiritual world" is simply some other dimension of the MEST universe. The MEST particles being manipulated in the spiritual world are simply much finer than the MEST particles being manipulated in the physical world.
(6) Thus, the gradients of MEST are: spirit --> mind --> body.
(7) Underlying "spirit --> mind --> body" is THAT, which cannot be described. THAT is manifesting as spirit. THAT is manifesting as mind. THAT is manifesting as body.
(8) THAT may withdraw from the body, but may still be manifested as "spirit and mind," or it may withdraw from the mind too, and simply be manifested as "spirit."
(9) In case of manifestation as "spirit and mind" one may expect there to be some kind of "body."
(10) In case of manifestation as "spirit" one may expect there to be some kind of "mind and body."
(11) All MEST would exhibit the property of mass (intertial and gravitational). "Thetan" looked upon as a manifestation at the spirit level, would be a MEST entity with the property of mass.
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Pepin
Patron with Honors
You don't seem to think much of us spirits.
Spirits are not in time.
Space/Time is a physical property. Spirits are not.
Even sub atomic particles sliced thin enough will lose location. "planck scale"
Once they have lost location, they too also have "no time"
Spirits are not in time.
Space/Time is a physical property. Spirits are not.
Even sub atomic particles sliced thin enough will lose location. "planck scale"
Once they have lost location, they too also have "no time"
flashgordon
Patron with Honors
How do you know that death incorpotates loss?
How do you know it's not a happy joyfull experience?
How would you know you would experience loss unless you have been through it before? And for that matter, loss of what?
flashgordon
Patron with Honors
MEST can be proven by MEST, It's the spirit that can't be defined in MEST terms because the spirit is not of the MEST universe. That is why it is so hard to "prove" the spirit. Invarably, they will ask you to prove the spirit in MEST terms which is next to impossible to do.
Maybe if you replaced the world "Thetan" over the word "MEST" in the above it would be closer.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
There was a sense of waiting, which infers time, Vinaire, in my case. There were consecutive events. I didn't have a sense of a "quantity" of time passing. But I knew one thing followed another.
FrankBooth
Patron with Honors
It's either fortunate or unfortunate, that we as human beings have evolved to the point that we can even conceive things that might be different.
As the animal kingdom discovered long before LRH, the driving cause of life is survival. We have the brains that allow us to not only survive but come up with wild theories and conjecture about continuing our existence beyond death. It's in our nature to attempt to come up with an excuse to cheat death. Instead of trying to avoid predators, our excuse to cheat death is to create any one of a number of scenarios where there's some sort of "essence" inside of us that will "carry on" our consciousness.
No human being should sell themselves short by writing themselves off as a shell of some other "being" that's at the controls. It would be tragic to try and imagine that I am not me, but merely a meat body being controlled by some other being that is truly "me" and that "I" am not "me", but merely a vehicle being operated by some sort of contrived essence. I for one, choose to embrace my humanity and make the best of it, for myself and those I interact with.
Not to sidetrack, but that's what I never really understood about the "believers" vs "atheist" argument. Regardless of your chosen spirituality, the constant argument is "Well, if we didn't have religion, why would you not just go out and rape, pillage and plunder". Total red herring, because it's peoples spirituality that causes them to kill themselves and/or others to achieve their given brand of "heaven". Had they taken a second to think that this is all there is, then maybe they would have thought twice before blowing themselves up in front of a crowd of innocent people, or invading a country that believed differently.
I don't know if any of this makes sense, and I apologize if it doesn't, but blind faith in some arbitrary, unproven claims into the human condition ( be it the Bible, The Torah, or a Science Fiction author turned savior of the human race) allow people to do crazy shit because they think that their essence will continue on beyond their petty existence here on Earth. I for one treasure every moment of my existence here on Earth, because my ability to even have this conversation is extremely special. No other life as we know it even has the ability to even comprehend such things, let alone have a civil discourse about it. We are unique like that in our little backwoods planet in our little backwoods solar system in our little fringe of the Milky Way. And I treasure every little scrap of knowledge I can devour, but in the scope of our gigantic universe, my gaining knowledge based upon what little we as peon human beings can actually know about the order of the universe is infantesimally small.
If people gain comfort thinking that anyone on the planet Earth can actually come to solid conclusions about the workings of the cosmos, more power to them, but that only goes as far as helping people sleep at night.
The universe is a huge place, and Homo Sapiens Sapiens will never know the answer because the earth will be swallowed up by the Sun long before we have the ability to work it all out scientifically.
And like LRH, I will make a proclaimation of a great discovery right now. I have researched and discovered for the first time that in order for humanity to live well, that the primary harmony of the human race is to treat others as you want to be treated. Hell, that's pretty much akin to his "discovery" that beings want to survive right?
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flashgordon
Patron with Honors
When the body dies it's lights out......for the body. Since you and I are not a body, you go on.
The body is just a way and means of operating in the MEST universe ( the universe of agreement ), if that window becomes dark or broken ( dead body ), you go to another one.
Teaching people that they are one lifers and will be dead forever only promotes irresponsible behavior and irresponsible behavior is what is causing this planet to get to a point where it will no longer support human beings anymore.
The body is just a way and means of operating in the MEST universe ( the universe of agreement ), if that window becomes dark or broken ( dead body ), you go to another one.
Teaching people that they are one lifers and will be dead forever only promotes irresponsible behavior and irresponsible behavior is what is causing this planet to get to a point where it will no longer support human beings anymore.
FrankBooth
Patron with Honors
Well, if the Earth is only a prison and dumping ground according to LRH then I don't think that would be of major concern.
However I would seriously disagree with your notion that believing that one is a "one lifer" would promote irresponsible behavior, and therefore, would destroy themselves. I would see it the other way around. I would be much more irresponsible if I felt that I would be granted a "do over" once I died. Animals don't do that because the food chain works in harmony, naturally, without wild theories, to keep a balance of life. The only imbalance occurred when human beings gained the ability to think beyond the here and now.
If I really believed that my current existence was just a blip on the radar of billions (or according to LRH, which goes against all science, trillions) of years, I totally wouldn't care at all.....what's a few decades when I've been around for trillions of years, and will continue to be around for trillions of years? The best that belief would do would be to allow myself to be enslaved into service into something like the Sea Org.
And if the belief in being a "one lifer" only promotes irresponsibility and destroy the planet, then why do all of the animals on the planet continue to thrive. It's the human belief in hocus pocus that is causing the downfall of the planet.
If what you're talking about was true, every species of animal on this planet would not exist because they can't even think about this concept, and therefore are "one lifers", and would destroy themselves. Unfortunately, the planet only got F'ed up when human beings were able to try to cheat death.
Death is Homo Sapien Sapiens only natural predator, so naturally, we have to come up with ways to try and wriggle around it. Just as the buffalo form herds to stave off their natural predators, humans form afterlives to stave off our predators.
(Edit: Total sidebar - If anyone was really at cause over MEST, don't you think they'd take the 2 seconds (I know, MEST term, with the use of the term "seconds") to open it up to everyone else? Wouldn't someone like that be able to clear the planet instantaneously?
The only thing that's putting this planet in the pooper is the scores of well intentioned, dedicated, good hearted people that are wasting away because of some hack sci-fi writer turned savior. The planet going to hell? Imagine how much positive impact a lot of wonderful people could have had on the world that spent the best years of their life regging people into the org.
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Vinaire
Sponsor
Please note that this is just my understanding. It may not be yours. I feel that if one is aware as spirit then there is time. That awareness denotes time. If awareness is persisting, that is a characteristic of time.
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Vinaire
Sponsor
As long as one looks at "spirit" as some kind of an identity or beingness, that "spirit" is still very much part of MEST.
By identifying, one is claiming a boundary to the thing being identified, and its separation from its surroundings.
Separation is the characteristic of space.
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Vinaire
Sponsor
To me, that awareness is part of the MEST universe, even though MEST has become much rarer.
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Vinaire
Sponsor
It's either fortunate or unfortunate, that we as human beings have evolved to the point that we can even conceive things that might be different.
As the animal kingdom discovered long before LRH, the driving cause of life is survival. We have the brains that allow us to not only survive but come up with wild theories and conjecture about continuing our existence beyond death. It's in our nature to attempt to come up with an excuse to cheat death. Instead of trying to avoid predators, our excuse to cheat death is to create any one of a number of scenarios where there's some sort of "essence" inside of us that will "carry on" our consciousness.
No human being should sell themselves short by writing themselves off as a shell of some other "being" that's at the controls. It would be tragic to try and imagine that I am not me, but merely a meat body being controlled by some other being that is truly "me" and that "I" am not "me", but merely a vehicle being operated by some sort of contrived essence. I for one, choose to embrace my humanity and make the best of it, for myself and those I interact with.
Not to sidetrack, but that's what I never really understood about the "believers" vs "atheist" argument. Regardless of your chosen spirituality, the constant argument is "Well, if we didn't have religion, why would you not just go out and rape, pillage and plunder". Total red herring, because it's peoples spirituality that causes them to kill themselves and/or others to achieve their given brand of "heaven". Had they taken a second to think that this is all there is, then maybe they would have thought twice before blowing themselves up in front of a crowd of innocent people, or invading a country that believed differently.
I don't know if any of this makes sense, and I apologize if it doesn't, but blind faith in some arbitrary, unproven claims into the human condition ( be it the Bible, The Torah, or a Science Fiction author turned savior of the human race) allow people to do crazy shit because they think that their essence will continue on beyond their petty existence here on Earth. I for one treasure every moment of my existence here on Earth, because my ability to even have this conversation is extremely special. No other life as we know it even has the ability to even comprehend such things, let alone have a civil discourse about it. We are unique like that in our little backwoods planet in our little backwoods solar system in our little fringe of the Milky Way. And I treasure every little scrap of knowledge I can devour, but in the scope of our gigantic universe, my gaining knowledge based upon what little we as peon human beings can actually know about the order of the universe is infantesimally small.
If people gain comfort thinking that anyone on the planet Earth can actually come to solid conclusions about the workings of the cosmos, more power to them, but that only goes as far as helping people sleep at night.
The universe is a huge place, and Homo Sapiens Sapiens will never know the answer because the earth will be swallowed up by the Sun long before we have the ability to work it all out scientifically.
And like LRH, I will make a proclaimation of a great discovery right now. I have researched and discovered for the first time that in order for humanity to live well, that the primary harmony of the human race is to treat others as you want to be treated. Hell, that's pretty much akin to his "discovery" that beings want to survive right?
Right!
Survival is simply the desire to continue one’s manifestation. By “manifestation” I mean the transformation from potential to actual. The “actual” form has characteristics recognized as MEST.
It is this desire to survive that brings about all emotions, sensations, etc. It is this desire that prompts our maneuverings to cheat death. Without this desire there is simply desireless conception and perception.
“God” and "heaven" is just another mechanism brought into play in one’s effort to cheat death. A sense of ethics and morality can exist independent of a religion connected with the idea of some supreme being called “God.” One does not really need such a conception of “God.” The conception of BRAHMA is very different. It is the conception of the potential prior to the transformation to “actual.”
To me, the best scenario is living one’s life ethically without conceiving any attachment to it.
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Vinaire
Sponsor
Body is simply a heavier manifestation as MEST. As "spirit" one is still manifesting as MEST. MEST is not something separate from you, or an adversary, as presented by Hubbard.
MEST is your manifested from. You may add to it by acquiring another body, or simply let go of it entirely.
It is attachment to this MEST form that creates all attitudes, emotions, sensations and pains.
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Ted
Gold Meritorious Patron
Being "out," so far out that there is absolutely no attention on Earth or MEST, there is no sense of Earth or MEST time.
Although, I see no reason a 2-year hiatus would be unreasonable. The preclears I have audited who had an opinion on this matter gave themselves a 1- to 2-year break returning with little or no knowledge, or perhaps no-interest, in the between lives area.
As for me, I can dig it. Have been out, have returned in one lifetime. The experience is exactly what I needed at the time. YMMV? Yes. I suspect each being will have the exact experience they need to have. So, all opinions on the matter are correct. I returned completely refreshed.
