LRH secret WO II record

AnonKat

Crusader
Over at MR blog there is talk of a second secret war record that conveniently popped up when Andy Lenarcic was doing research that matched LRH claims. Who was involved in this ?

Although records are good I wonder if people have first or second hand knowledge about this.

haydn // April 17, 2010 at 12:24 am

Will,

I’d like to throw in my two cents worth.

Though, like Marty, I find it hard to get into a general discussion on the subject of claims regarding LRH’s past, I have an intesting story to impart.

Back in the mid 1980s I worked with Marty in the Church’s legal department and I was handling a case which dealt in part with LRH’s credentials. Specifically parts of his WWII war record, how he commanded a sub chaser, was a fantastic leader of men, fought Japanese subs off the West Coast of ther USA, was injured but recovered and other similar points.

I knew of such claims about LRH’s past and like a good Scientologist just assumed they were true, but the sheer amount and weight of vicious ridicule that was thrown at these claims by slick lawyers during the heat of courtroom battle even had me reeling and wondering about them and it had church researchers scouring the country for any war timewitnesses.

The trial did not go well, it seems it is much easier to tear a man’s reputation down than it is to build it up.

Then one day, a little too late in the trial to help with the outcome, an old gentleman arrived. Despite his 70 plus years he’d travelled many a mile and I got to spend some time with this gentlemen and questioned him at great length.

He wasn’t a Scientologist, not sure he’d ever heard of it. He hadn’t seen L Ron Hubbard for around forty years but heard that people were casting aspersions at his old friend so came a running.

]He was L Ron Hubbard’s Chief Officer from the “fictitious” sub chaser and relayed to me in detail how he had spent many hours, around 26 hours straight if memory serves me right, with Hubbard aboard that sub chaser fighting a number of Japanese subs threatening the west Coast of the USA, sinking at least one of them, and how the senior naval authorities poured cold water on and suppressed the reports of the incidents for their own reasons. He told me how he had stood beside Hubbard in the latrine and couldn’t help noticing that his commanding officer was pissing copious amounts of blood due to his injuries; told me that Hubbard was by far the greatest naval officer he’d ever served under, that he could turn a rabble into a well drilled crew and did, and that to this day he would walk through hell for the man.

Regardess of the truth of specific claims regarding Ron Hubbard, I was left with an abiding thought, what quality and stature of a man has friends who, forty years on, drop everything to come and help defend them?

Thoughtful // April 17, 2010 at 4:33 am

I read the unauthorized LRH biography which covered in detail the many mistakes LRH made in his life. When Dave found out, he had Andy Lenarchic busted off post. Anyway, Andy was a friend, and I was there when Andy finally solved an old mystery. He found out that LRH actually had two war records; the real one, and a duplicate that was apparently a cover for LRH’s naval intelligence work. Andy of course was Danny Sherman’s handler for years. So any time I had to coordinate something with Danny, I had a little time to visit with Andy. Andy and I also sometimes wound up on the same Saturday renos teams, doing carpentry.

Andy liked to talk about his research on the LRH Bio Project, after all that research was the whole focus of his life. Such conversations were “just between us” because I didn’t want to do anything to stop that flow. But one day I came in and Andy was just was astonished because that day he had finally found a second war record for LRH. For years Andy had been trying to make sense of what had happened since what LRH said he did, did not match his “war records.” The second record, which had been classified, did match.

However, none of that has anything to do with why Scientologists respect LRH. That is something some non-Scientologists can never understand.

Scientologists respect LRH because his developments and discoveries in Scientology work. We don’t care about anything else. LRH was not perfect, he was just a man. He always made that clear. The fact that an imperfect man, as imperfect as the rest of us, can create something as great as auditing and training, Wow! THAT in my book is the greatest accomplishment in history.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I recall reading online a comment by Fletcher Prouty about something like this too. I'll see if I can dig it up . . . here we go: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/warhero/connection.htm.

EDIT: I just finished reading this Chris Owen excerpt. It pretty much demolishes Prouty's support. There is an entire BOOK on the subject here! (Ron the War Hero.)

On the other side, there is a comment by David Mayo in an online article about Hubbard lying about his war record.

I don't know if we will ever get the truth about this. I doubt if Haydn is lying, but it would have been nice if he had had some dox from this other person, even if just a notarised affidavit.

Paul
 
Last edited:

wazn

Patron with Honors
Again, we are back to "telling the truth".
Do you think R had "2 war records" and didn't know about it?
Perhaps if the tales of mastery and glory had been prefaced by something along the lines of "because of my navy intell work, it's a little known fact that....(insert tale)" the stories would not be looked upon as lies.
And, perhaps if R hadn't written policies and such on PR, acceptable truths and how to lie...
And, by now enough time has probably passed that the mystery behind all that important navy intell work that R did no longer has to be covered up by the government. Yup, probably long passed the time of a national security threat. I am sure it could be unveiled.
To me that would be an appropriate use of scientology $ - get the truth revealed.
 

Nurse Pinch

Patron with Honors
Makes perfect sense to me that a pathological megalomaniac liar like LRH would have have a SEKRET war record that backed up all his lunatic claims. Of course the chap who traveled across the world to assert that LRH really really was a great guy was so old he would now be dead, and so the story can never be verified.

Right then, I am off to donate another $100K to the Super Power building.

Pinchy.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Of course the chap who traveled across the world to assert that LRH really really was a great guy was so old he would now be dead, and so the story can never be verified.

But you would think the CofS would have leaped at the chance to film/video/record the guy and his statements.

Paul
 

AnonKat

Crusader
I recall reading online a comment by Fletcher Prouty about something like this too. I'll see if I can dig it up . . . here we go: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/warhero/connection.htm.

EDIT: I just finished reading this Chris Owen excerpt. It pretty much demolishes Prouty's support. There is an entire BOOK on the subject here! (Ron the War Hero.)

On the other side, there is a comment by David Mayo in an online article about Hubbard lying about his war record.

I don't know if we will ever get the truth about this. I doubt if Haydn is lying, but it would have been nice if he had had some dox from this other person, even if just a notarised affidavit.

Paul

I think this chap and this record showed up to destroy Gerry Armstrongs case.

The C of $ fabricated the record and the Chap was fed lies so he exaggerate Hubbards war achievements to "help his war buddy". Record and old chap are two, different and seperate Datums

http://www.lermanet.com/L_Ron_Hubbard/
 
Last edited:

Veda

Sponsor
The person mentioned was Captain Moulton.

This is from the chapter 'A Fabricated past revealed in a wog court' in 'Messiah or Madman?':

Q. [by Flynn]. He told you he was injured by a Japanese machine gun?

A. [by Captain Moulton] Yes, in some detail...

Q. What did he tell you?

A. That he had been in [Java] at the time the Japanese came in...

Q. So you believed Captain Hubbard at the time?

A. Certainly, I had no reason not to.

Q. Did he tell you exactly where he had been hit by machine gun fire?

A. In the back, in the area of the kidneys...

From witness, Kima Douglass (Hubbard's medical officer, 1976 - 1980):

Q. Did he [Hubbard] have any bullet wounds in his back?

A. No sir.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Makes perfect sense to me that a pathological megalomaniac liar like LRH would have have a SEKRET war record that backed up all his lunatic claims. Of course the chap who traveled across the world to assert that LRH really really was a great guy was so old he would now be dead, and so the story can never be verified.

Right then, I am off to donate another $100K to the Super Power building.

Pinchy.
What! Only a measley 100K? Why you tight - fisted.................. No, sorry, that qualifies you for a limited edition of the LRH odorless bath soap and flannel, at the special price of 101K. Don't delay!
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
The person mentioned was Captain Moulton.

This is from the chapter 'A Fabricated past revealed in a wog court' in 'Messiah or Madman?':<snip>

No surprise that Hubbard lied to Moulton. But Haydn's report in the post above was about eye-witness testimony, not hearsay.

Paul
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
The person mentioned was Captain Moulton.

This is from the chapter 'A Fabricated past revealed in a wog court' in 'Messiah or Madman?':

Q. [by Flynn]. He told you he was injured by a Japanese machine gun?

A. [by Captain Moulton] Yes, in some detail...

Q. What did he tell you?

A. That he had been in [Java] at the time the Japanese came in...

Q. So you believed Captain Hubbard at the time?

A. Certainly, I had no reason not to.

Q. Did he tell you exactly where he had been hit by machine gun fire?

A. In the back, in the area of the kidneys...

From witness, Kima Douglass (Hubbard's medical officer, 1976 - 1980):

Q. Did he [Hubbard] have any bullet wounds in his back?

A. No sir.[/QUOTE
]

That's because the mighty Hubbard healed the wounds to full erasure with Dianetics. That was his first miracle.
 

Mystic

Crusader
Being but a conjured pseudo entity, Hubbard-thing of course had no "memory", just a conjured programming. He/it didn't "lie" as such the way you and I can just out-and-out lie about whatever. A pseudo entity is just loaded with falsities as the entity itself is false.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
This is just a completely transparent lie to try to cover over earlier lies by Hubbard.

It's not even a very good lie.

In this case, lying is indeed a low level form of creativity.
 
My father had two World War Records too.

1) A French family hid him in their winecellar for the better part of the war. The only problem is that it was in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

2) The other one said that he raised the Flag on Iwo Jima, and dropped the atomic bomb on Japan.

Nobody understands the affection people had for my dad, since he was a first-rate poker player.

So naturally they believe the second one.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
Last edited:

Veda

Sponsor
No surprise that Hubbard lied to Moulton. But Haydn's report in the post above was about eye-witness testimony, not hearsay.

Paul

Moulton, like Haydn, was the effect of Hubbardian bamboozlement. Moulton saw blood in Hubbard's urine and assumed it was from war wounds (from machine gun bullets in the back from Java). He was very impressed by Hubbard (who was the greatest officer he ever served under, etc.), as was Haydn (who was, of course, a disciple of Hubbard).

I looked at all this stuff (Hubbard's biographical sketches of himself, the "Shannon documents" (which preceded Armstrong), the Armstrong trial docs, etc. years ago. And I share the conclusion of Judge Breckenridge:

"The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egotism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile.

"At the same time it appears that he is charismatic and highly capable of motivating, organizing, manipulating, and inspiring his adherents. He was referred to during the trial as a 'genuis', a 'revered person', a man who was 'viewed by his followed with awe'."

If someone wants to rely on Captain Moulton's account that Hubbard did battle with several Japanese submarines off the coast of Oregon, that's fine with me. I'd have no problem with it if it were true. It's just that the amount of prevarication and manipulation surrounding Hubbard, put there by Hubbard, is undeniable.

Well, not to someone like Haydn, who's still in denial, but who (deep down) must know better, since he has in place the fall back response of, "It doesn't matter," etc.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Moulton, like Haydn, was the effect of Hubbardian bamboozlement. Moulton saw blood in Hubbard's urine and assumed it was from war wounds (from machine gun bullets in the back from Java). He was very impressed by Hubbard (who was the greatest officer he ever served under, etc.), as was Haydn (who was, of course, a disciple of Hubbard).

Looking again at Haydn's short account, it is impossible to see what Moulton reported he had personally witnessed, and what he had merely accepted direct from Hubbard. Fair enough. I certainly have no reason to accept Hubbard's second-hand word on anything whatsoever — I would just about go along with his description of some badass (Gris?) from Mission Earth that he would lie even when the truth would serve.

Paul
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Looking again at Haydn's short account, it is impossible to see what Moulton reported he had personally witnessed, and what he had merely accepted direct from Hubbard. Fair enough. I certainly have no reason to accept Hubbard's second-hand word on anything whatsoever — I would just about go along with his description of some badass (Gris?) from Mission Earth that he would lie even when the truth would serve.

Paul

I remember some discussion about this on WWP

Found a helpfull thread , back to basics I geuss

http://forums.whyweprotest.net/8-ed...ct-sheet-documented-history-scientology-7937/
 
Last edited:

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Over at MR blog there is talk of a second secret war record that conveniently popped up when Andy Lenarcic was doing research that matched LRH claims. Who was involved in this ?

haydn // April 17, 2010 at 12:24 am

Will,

I’d like to throw in my two cents worth.

Though, like Marty, I find it hard to get into a general discussion on the subject of claims regarding LRH’s past, I have an intesting story to impart.

Back in the mid 1980s I worked with Marty in the Church’s legal department and I was handling a case which dealt in part with LRH’s credentials. Specifically parts of his WWII war record, how he commanded a sub chaser, was a fantastic leader of men, fought Japanese subs off the West Coast of ther USA, was injured but recovered and other similar points.

I knew of such claims about LRH’s past and like a good Scientologist just assumed they were true, but the sheer amount and weight of vicious ridicule that was thrown at these claims by slick lawyers during the heat of courtroom battle even had me reeling and wondering about them and it had church researchers scouring the country for any war timewitnesses.

The trial did not go well, it seems it is much easier to tear a man’s reputation down than it is to build it up.

Then one day, a little too late in the trial to help with the outcome, an old gentleman arrived. Despite his 70 plus years he’d travelled many a mile and I got to spend some time with this gentlemen and questioned him at great length.

He wasn’t a Scientologist, not sure he’d ever heard of it. He hadn’t seen L Ron Hubbard for around forty years but heard that people were casting aspersions at his old friend so came a running.

He was L Ron Hubbard’s Chief Officer from the “fictitious” sub chaser and relayed to me in detail how he had spent many hours, around 26 hours straight if memory serves me right, with Hubbard aboard that sub chaser fighting a number of Japanese subs threatening the west Coast of the USA, sinking at least one of them, and how the senior naval authorities poured cold water on and suppressed the reports of the incidents for their own reasons. He told me how he had stood beside Hubbard in the latrine and couldn’t help noticing that his commanding officer was pissing copious amounts of blood due to his injuries; told me that Hubbard was by far the greatest naval officer he’d ever served under, that he could turn a rabble into a well drilled crew and did, and that to this day he would walk through hell for the man.

Regardess of the truth of specific claims regarding Ron Hubbard, I was left with an abiding thought, what quality and stature of a man has friends who, forty years on, drop everything to come and help defend them?

First of all there is no rank or title in the US Navy of "Chief Officer" - there is "Exec" or "First Lieutenant" which is the title that Moulton held.

There was nothing fictitious about the ship that Hubbard commanded. But once again some TBer comes through using the "argument from incredulity" in that he, Haydn, never bothered to actually research anything he was talking about.

The US Navy found that Hubbard was telling porkies. He was in incompetent commander who got overly excited and thought he was attacking a submarine.

The US Navy both then and since have never found any evidence of any Japanese submarines in the area - though of course a true blue TBer just thinks that is proof that the US Government was out to get Hubbard from the get go it doesn't actually explain why the Japanese government has no records of any submarines sent to the area and unaccounted for either. But Haydn is busy trotting out the opinion of someone who was already conned by Hubbard as some sort of "proof".

Haydn shows himself to be a gullible twat - well no real fault there, a lot of us were stupid and gullible enough to get into Scientology but, for crying out loud Haydn - did you not manage to regain anything approaching critical thinking when you got out?

I was in a motorcycle gang nearly 40 years ago and recently friends offered to drop everything and help me out on something - does that make me the savior of mankind - and if so could people send me loads of money??
:
Thoughtful // April 17, 2010 at 4:33 am

I read the unauthorized LRH biography which covered in detail the many mistakes LRH made in his life. When Dave found out, he had Andy Lenarchic busted off post. Anyway, Andy was a friend, and I was there when Andy finally solved an old mystery. He found out that LRH actually had two war records; the real one, and a duplicate that was apparently a cover for LRH’s naval intelligence work. Andy of course was Danny Sherman’s handler for years. So any time I had to coordinate something with Danny, I had a little time to visit with Andy. Andy and I also sometimes wound up on the same Saturday renos teams, doing carpentry.

No he did not "discover" that. It was suggested by that idiot Prouty but as Chris Owen successfully laid out - when did Hubbard have time for a double life in the US Navy? For example the famous brave assault on the magnetic anomaly - now whether one figures the US Navy was lying or not - the time is the important factor. Hubbards whereabouts from Boston, through school in Florida, to Bremerton to the assault and then on to the brilliant attack on the Mexican island are all documented - not just by the navy but also by other eye witnesses (like Moulton who Haydn was all lathered up about).

So how come Lenarcic and the other great "researchers" have no actual evidence?

This is like reading "twoofer twaffic".

Andy liked to talk about his research on the LRH Bio Project, after all that research was the whole focus of his life. Such conversations were “just between us” because I didn’t want to do anything to stop that flow. But one day I came in and Andy was just was astonished because that day he had finally found a second war record for LRH. For years Andy had been trying to make sense of what had happened since what LRH said he did, did not match his “war records.” The second record, which had been classified, did match.

Really?? So no actual record, just the relay of a conversation from someone who was desperately trying to prove that Hubbard was not the malingering little git his records says he was. The idea of "confirmation bias" seems to eb missing from any assessment..

And the big question that never gets addressed by any of these gullible twats is - why?

In 1942 Hubbard was a minor Sci-Fi writer who had some success in the pulps and probably had a future in the biz. he was also someone who had some abilities in sailing a small yacht.

Those are not exceptional abilities. They are fairly common.

Hubbard had a limited ability for college work, he was provenly incompetent at handling his own finances and he, for his time, had a questionable moral history. So what would the US Navy, at the outbreak of WW II, have in mind for him?

Why would the US navy and the US Government plan and run a cover operation for a war time operative - even after 40 years?

Why is it that these people just never ask themselves some fairly obvious questions?

However, none of that has anything to do with why Scientologists respect LRH. That is something some non-Scientologists can never understand.

Scientologists respect LRH because his developments and discoveries in Scientology work. We don’t care about anything else. LRH was not perfect, he was just a man. He always made that clear. The fact that an imperfect man, as imperfect as the rest of us, can create something as great as auditing and training, Wow! THAT in my book is the greatest accomplishment in history.

wow! apparently this turtle has never heard of Freud, Jung, Pavlov, Skinner et al.

But what hubbardite EVER actually studies anything??
 
Top