M.U. On The dynamics, my thoughts.

[Gadfly]

Veda,
I did go exterior a few times during the TRs and Obj coaudit, but my very first incident was after doing the 'Tone 40 on an ashtray' drill. I gave myself the Tone 40 command to be 3 feet behind my head and I found myself at the top of the room at a viewpoint a few feet from the point where the ceiling and wall met.

It was more than a feeling or an idea for me.
Oh yeah, reading Aleister Crowley's 'Magick in Theory and Practice' is on my to do list...

I had many different, but related experiences. The "feelings" of being "keyed-out", "blown-out", "and "exterior" overlap.

First, while doing TRs early in my Scientology career (TR 0), I found myself situated between my face and my twin's face. The visual perception was totally clear, not hazy, and was as vivid as any waking moment. I was looking from a point, with 360 degree visual, and it felt totally natural. It didn't seem weird in any way. Of course, I burst out laughing, in a line-charging sort of way, and lost the viewpoint within 10 or 15 seconds. Sometimes I wish I had someone there to immediately start me in on with the processes of Route 1!

While I lost the perception from any location outside the body, this feeling of being NOT connected to the body, lightness, covering a greater space, serenity, along with a disappearances of any and all attention "in here" lasted many hours, and settled down over a few days. All thought disappeared, and I suddenly was simply totally extroverted upon the MEST universe, with no inner yapping, imagining, playing out inner dramas, or talking to self (which we all usually do constantly).

It was entirely enjoyable, and I can't see how any person would not like the same experience. There was NO component of thinkingness at all. I wasn't thinking about feeling larger, or about not having a mind, and simple was in that state. This had NO component of intellect, and was all direct experience. That is why you can't argue with people who experienced such things.

Second, while studying the PDC tapes at Flag, I would spend many hours studying one paragraph, doing drills, making up drills, making up my own essays, and so forth. I got yelled at all of the time by the Supervisor, for "additives", BUT I always managed to give him large amounts of student points, so he let it go. Plus, I was doing GREAT on it. I immersed myself in it. I would go home thinking about it all, relating it all to other ideas, go to bed thinking about, dream about it, and wake up thinking about it.

Now, in effect I was NOT just "reading", and I was constantly "doing things with my mind", and experimenting with the techniques and processes Hubbard talked about. After applying some idea in some section, I suddenly felt myself as "huge", I "filled the entire room". I felt as if "I" was in the back corner of the room, looking down, but still using the body to look through. I had no perception from outside, but I "felt" as if I was very much "outside. Also, as usual, I was totally calm, lost all inner attention and focus, had little or no attention on the body, ceased all mental activity, and was simply "there". As I walked around I felt as if I was a few feet above my head, but directing and using the body. The senses of sight and hearing were through the body. I had to "take a walk", because I could not sit there in the course room in that state.

Third, I had many blow-outs during auditing. These were usually accompanied by great feelings of serenity, expanded sense of "personal" space, ceasing of all attention towards "self" or towards "inside realm of mind and thoughts", increase in vibrancy of colors, and increase of perceptual details of the physical universe.

Rarely did I have any perceptions for a location outside the body as I did with TRs mentioned above. But, I felt "less connected" to the body, and in a sense "outside" to some varying degree. Part of this may very well be that when you lose attention and focus on the mind, aiming inward, that you naturally change to focusing outward, and THIS manifests as many of the "feelings" described above.

I wonder whether or not the term "exteriorization", as existing out from the body, is the BASIC involved here. For example, it seems to me that if I were OUT of the body, with suitable drilling, I should be able to lose all focus or attention on the body, and instead focus on something like my own IMAGINATION. I wish that I had experimented with visualization techniques back then, but I didn't. I felt too GOOD to bother with anything other than simply being there experiencing the physical universe with nothing else. Though, in retrospect, I should be able to experience ANY universe with nothing else!

I want to discuss a few things about this that I think many never bother to notice.

First, some of our experiences are defined by time, meaning that the idea or experience ONLY makes sense spread out over time. The "growth of a tree" is a real thing, and you can have a real idea about it, but it does NOT exist at any specific point in time. It exists spread out OVER time. One can't view "it" here, right now in PT. See, IN FACT, there are MANY things that exist, but you can NEVER see them "in PT". You can see the IDEA of "growth" in PT, but you cannot ever observe growth in PT. Sure, you can take time elapsed photos, and view the progression quickly, but still, time passes. There are a great many REAL things that exist, but because they are spread out over time or involve relationships, they cannot be viewed "in PT".

This has something to do with these experiences of "exterior". How?

Well, just as a frog won't notice the increase of heat or getting boiled alive in a pot if you increase the temperature slowly, so each of us do NOT notice as our overall general state of being changes. I have a theory about this. I could NEVER have the same or similar experiences today doing Scientology, because I am NOT the same person as I was back then when I first "blew out" and "went exterior". I was a young and naive, quite insecure 25 year old. I was confused about a great many things. I had a great many "personal issues". So, what I was "snapping out and away from" was this bundle of "me" as I existed back then. It was an introverted bundle of messy confusion. I didn't have much experience of life, and had not yet spent many years looking into various things, ideas and aspects of life (from many other viewpoints besides Scientology).

For me, and for others I have spoken to, these GREAT experiences and feelings occurred for the most part IN THE BEGINNING. The reason for that, as I see it, is because the largest changes were made in the beginning. But, as you changed, there would not and could not later be such large changes. For me, the later auditing had less and less experiences of this nature. But also, I was less introverted, and generally had a larger space, so any experience of change would be "less".

Now, today, due to a great many factors, not limited to but including long ago Scientology, studies in the occult, experimentation with visualization, meditation and many other things, I commonly exist with a feeling of a clear and large space. If I were to "go exterior" now, the sense of change or feeling would NOT be the same as back then, when I was so stuck in my own personally-created world of significances, ideas and insecurities. The point is that these early feelings of "exterior" only SEEMED so drastic and HUGE because YOU were such a mess back then! They were, as all things, "relative". They appeared a certain way to you, at the time, based on who and what you were at the time.

Many of us grow and evolve naturally through life. I know that my current state of calmness, serenity and sense of space is far more stable than it ever was with Scientology, and this has little to do with involvement with Scientology or any aim to "be exterior". The experiences early on in auditing seem so HUGE because of the comparison and relative factor of what you were like BACK THEN.

I don't desire or need to "be exterior". It doesn't solve any problem for me. But then, in many ways, I probably am what some might call exterior, to a greater or lesser degree, much of the time.

There are many gradations of such experiences. You can be "fully out with perception from the outside location", or you can be "fully out with no perception from the outside location, but still through the body senses". And anywhere in between. And, you can be partially "out" in a myriad of ways.

In the end it might all be a bunch of nonsense from the viewpoint of an entity of awareness. The awareness unit mocks up and exists in some universe. All of it is of the nature of an "illusion". The idea of "being in a body", "being out of a body", and so forth are considerations of awareness. I suspect that these earlier experiences might have been so dramatic for some of us because various mental factors were shaken up so much - in a very large way. You were taking a WHOLE LIFETIME of previous confusion, and shaking it all up. But once you shake up and rearrange all of that, the amount of possible change left afterwards is far less.

I had some of my largest "blow-outs" and "line charging" in the first few hours of Life Repair.

I can't pretend that the experiences didn't exist. But you cannot and should not evaluate them as you "remember them", because you are ignoring the "change over time" factor here. And this factor is extremely important. You have changed, you have grown, you have evolved, due to a great many factors, and any relationship of YOU NOW, with various processes and techniques will NOT result in the same sets of experiences.

These feelings of "sudden blow-out" were a result of a RELATIONSHIP of YOU (as you existed then) with the processes. Some people grasp onto the feelings and experiences, and want to "feel them" like any other enjoyable experience, over again, just like they did before. In a very real sense, one desires to "be the effect" of feeling serene, expansive, and bright.

That was always a problem I had with Scientology. It didn't provide a system of methods so that you could CREATE the feeling and state at will. You were always the unknown EFFECT of some process. It happened "to you". And, it couldn't be predicted or brought about consistently at all. I suspect that due to my extensive experimentation with other practices where one learns to better direct attention, focus and ones inner sense of space, I have some ability to "go exterior" at will - though I cannot be out with any perception (granted I have never tried to either). But, in many other ways, in terms of calm, serenity, loss of mental introversion, ability to be there either extroverted or introverted, I am FAR better than I was back in them early days of Scientology.

Now, could I develop the ability to "be out", and perceive with total clarity and consciousness? Maybe. Bur for me, I simply place no value in that, and concern myself with other things (to thus develop my character which I might then carry forward in a Karmic sense).

 

[Gadfly]

While I've had Out of Body Experiences, I'm so glad that those experiences had nothing to do with Scientology.

How many people "went exterior on the comm course" and then spent years, sometimes, decades, and thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, pursuing the same experience they had on the comm course?

That is so very true.

I mentioned this in my above (long) post.

People experience this "as an effect", just like any other sensation, feeling, or emotion. And, then they want to "taste" it again. They DESIRE it.

That works directly against any sort of spiritual growth.

Scientology never provides a set of methods to teach you how to bring about the experience or "state of mind" AT WILL.

 

[Spirit]

You realize, of course, that you were "squirreling" when you added "be three feet," etc., to the ashtray drill.

I did not do this during the drill. It was later that night, I had a pain in my leg. Used a Tone 40 command for my leg to stop hurting. Ah success! Being ignorant as to the proper way of exteriorizing, I gave myself the Tone 40 exteriorization command. Damn, I was pleased, until the staff at FCDC started crawling my shit about my squirreling ways. Until then, I was totally blown out. Of course I had to have a meter check, which restored my lofty state.

How many people "went exterior on the comm course" and then spent years, sometimes, decades, and thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, pursuing the same experience they had on the comm course?

Then they end up as OT 8s, where the "EP" is something like, "I don't know who I am, but I'd like to find out."

That Ron had quite a sense of humor.

I am fortunate that I did not pursue the Bridge any further. As for the ability, it never went away for me, but it did get harder at times.

 

[Rene Descartes]

I'd love to read this article inside this magazine

Magical Blend - Issue #5.
Comparison of Aleister Crowley and Carlos Castaneda.


Rd00

 

[Spirit]

Gladfly,
Your post, as with all of the posts that I have read of yours, is deeply thought provoking. There is nothing you wrote that I do not agree with. It would take me hours to articulate my posts as well as you. I wish I had the ability to express my experiences as well as you, but I do not. Piss poor keyboard skills add to my shortcomings.

For me, exteriorization was my first major spiritual pursuit and experience, except for a vision or two. I don't dwell on whether or not I am exterior these days. It really is secondary to personal growth as you mentioned. It is a pursuit that many here will scoff at, but I am still pursuing a spiritual state of being that would parallel the lofty claims of Scientology. I believe it is possible, but I also do not limit myself to early Scientology. I remain open minded. From my personal viewpoint, meditation has its virtues, along with TROM and Knowledgism. I refuse to abandon my lifetime pursuit of spiritual immortality and becoming one with God.
Sometimes I wish I could just be an average person, beep bopping along, avoiding the deception of a devil that I do not believe in and turning to a deity with penance for my sins and receiving eternal blessings just for believing in a dogma. However, I can not.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I'm thinking aloud here without any claim to having resolved the issue;

That is so very true.

I mentioned this in my above (long) post.

People experience this "as an effect", just like any other sensation, feeling, or emotion. And, then they want to "taste" it again. They DESIRE it.

That works directly against any sort of spiritual growth.

Scientology never provides a set of methods to teach you how to bring about the experience or "state of mind" AT WILL.

True, and I think it's what Chogyam Trungpa wrote about in his book "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_Through_Spiritual_Materialism

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/200812/cutting-through-spiritual-materialism

The 180^ polar opposite alternative to this "spiritual materialism" is Cardinal Newman's famous prayer, part of which goes (roughly), "When I am depressed, let my depression serve Him." In other words, you accept what is in the moment completely as the will of God without any desire to be different.

Easier said than done though IMO when you're feeling like crap and (in Scientology parlance) your space is collapsed. Maybe Newman got it to work for him, I don't know.

 

[Gadfly]

I refuse to abandon my lifetime pursuit of spiritual immortality and becoming one with God.
Sometimes I wish I could just be an average person, beep bopping along, avoiding the deception of a devil that I do not believe in and turning to a deity for penance for my sins and receiving eternal blessings just for believing in a dogma. However, I can not.

Well, I can't either.

I have always had little interest in the "normal life" of the "common man". I don't have any superior attitude, or look on others with condescension, but I just never wanted the same things as most others. Ever since I was very young. The usual "aims" just never resonated with me to any great degree. Cripes, I live on a mountain amidst many hundreds of acres of forest. By myself. I have always enjoyed solitude. While I am mostly "alone", I never suffer from feelings of "loneliness". I can take a walk in the woods and feel entirely "complete". :confused2:

I still read all sorts of things. I meditate every day. I do occasion mental drills, just for the heck of it. And, while I probably do so more than most others, I am not at all "serious" about it, in any strict dedication-sense (which is a weakness of mine that I might some day try to rectify). And, I play and write music almost everyday. I record music often. I am currently begun on a challenge to get up to speed with ALL of "western philosophy" (that is going to take some time).

First, IF you actually are some sort of "immortal being", then no matter what you do, you will remain so. Your existing as an eternal spirit will occur NO MATTER what the details might be of your "pursuit". In a certain sense, you can't help but be so, if it is true. And, if it is not true, then it may not matter. Either way though, the inner realm of mind acts in a way that a) HOW you choose to view the world directly affects b) HOW you experience that world (whether you are eternal or not). Hubbard was very much onto something when he talked about considerations and agreements. Though, there is a way that it MAY make a difference. How so?

Imagine that at this point in your human evolution you do not have any component of you that exists as any sort of "immortal, continuing and unchanging awareness". But, with the advent of human thought, a strange thing happened. We can direct and change how we evolve by HOW we direct our attention and focus. For example, the ability called the "imagination" can be developed in various ways. It most likely can be "pushed" into areas and realms that it never HAD before. In other words, various "inner aspects" can be CREATED, where they NEVER existed before. If one spends enough time and energy developing such things, in a very real sense, they might persist and continue, even if before they were developed, they never would or could have. In a certain sense, the evolution of Man, as possibility and as an actuality, may depend on HOW Man chooses to develop his "inner world of mind, imagination and focus". Man's future in this sense is entirely in his own hands. It is not hard-wired into genetics or anything else, because this thing called "thought", while it might have originally been an accidental by-product of purely physical phenomena, may be able to grow and eventually free itself from that which it was originally born. So, even if there is no world of spirit, and no eternal entity NOW, depending on how you focus and how you place your attention, you may be able to CREATE such a reality.

This would involve "quantum leaps" of consciousness. I suspect the universe is FAR different than any of us imagine it to be from our severely limited, biased and incomplete viewpoints.

Simply, in a general sense, you change the possibilities by how you choose to consider them to be.

Second, the aim to "exist as an eternal being" (with some continuous consciousness and awareness of self) and to "be one with God" are not at all necessarily the same. Other practices and philosophies, such as Hinduism and Yoga (union with the Divine) often heavily concentrate on "becoming one with God". What that always means is LOSING SENSE OF SENSE as you meld back into the source of the Infinite - God.

There are MANY ways to add towards that. And, in a certain sense, we might each be doing it in our own ways - and might not have any other choice (no matter what you might believe to the contrary at this moment).

I have a great love of all things truly spiritual - but I am not at all religious, and I have certain antipathy towards what I see as the rote stupidity of most organized religions. And, I have a great love of the things of the intellect, both in terms of science (non-fiction) and of the highly imaginative (fiction). I can spend hours entertaining various ideas, notions, and examine how these ideas relate and connect. And, I can spend many more hours examining HOW these various ideas relate to the actualities and realities that they claim to define and describe.

There is just SO MUCH to find interesting out there and "in here"!

I also am on that path (as we probably each are). I also have an aversion to dogmatism (of which I found way too much of in the theories and practices of Scientology).

I agree that the goals are valuable for some of us. Of course, as is obvious from all I have written earlier, I don't see that nearly ANY combination of the practices of Scientology can take one towards those goals - not without a GREAT amount of alteration and additions from other sources.

I get what you say about the difficulty of articulating things. I only just barely brush the surface of what I "see" when I try to type up my ideas here. For every idea I type up, I have 10 or 20 others, that are racing though my mind on different levels as I limit myself to just the ones you read here.

Spirit, thank-you so much for sharing with us here, because you really got me looking at all of this (once again).

 

[Gadfly]

I'm thinking aloud here without any claim to having resolved the issue;



True, and I think it's what Chogyam Trungpa wrote about in his book "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_Through_Spiritual_Materialism

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/200812/cutting-through-spiritual-materialism

The 180^ polar opposite alternative to this "spiritual materialism" is Cardinal Newman's famous prayer, part of which goes (roughly), "When I am depressed, let my depression serve Him." In other words, you accept what is in the moment completely as the will of God without any desire to be different.

Easier said than done though IMO when you're feeling like crap and (in Scientology parlance) your space is collapsed. Maybe Newman got it to work for him, I don't know.

This is a great point.

In a very real sense, what a person does when he or she "as-ises" anything is just LET'S IT BE, does not resist it at all, and does nothing at all to try to change it. What you described as "total acceptance just as it is", is very similar to THAT. I never felt that Hubbard's idea of "as-is-ness" quite captured the flavor of all of this, but when included with other ideas, it, for me, it helped complete the other ideas.

The idea of "protest" comes up in auditing. It needs to be "peeled off of a case", or off of an incident. Protest is resistance. Protest and resistance hold things in place and perpetuate unwanted conditions. Let It Be - a most brilliant suggestion!

Simply look at it. With no bias, with no concern of what it is or isn't. Lose any concern or judgment about it.

Note: Hubbard includes the assumption that you first created the thing, and then altered it. That part is NOT necessary. If you just look at anything, let it be, and don't resist it (as far as subjective things are concerned), they often will just go away (vanish, spontaneously disintegrate).

Just yesterday I had a headache. I could have taken an Excedrin, but I took a different approach. I sat in a chair, and decided to just LET IT BE and "watch it". As I did so, I noticed any ideas, resistances and energies that popped up and I let them go. 15 minutes later the headache was gone.

And yes, it is not at all so easy especially when one has "sunk" to a low level, and digging oneself out seems almost impossible.

 

[Spirit]

It is almost as if I am reading my own thoughts and attitudes here.

I have always had little interest in the "normal life" of the "common man". I don't have any superior attitude, or look on others with condescension, but I just never wanted the same things as most others. Ever since I was very young. The usual "aims" just never resonated with me to any great degree...


I have a great love of all things truly spiritual - but I am not at all religious, and I have certain antipathy towards what I see as the rote stupidity of most organized religions. …


I also am on that path (as we probably each are). I also have an aversion to dogmatism (of which I found way too much of in the theories and practices of Scientology).

I have the same weakness, but am moving past it and pushing on. I used to spend so much time reading, browsing the internet and various activities. Now, I am making time for mental drills and solo auditing. I still do read a lot, but have no interest in fiction. My study of TROM & Knowledgism materials at this point is limited to having enough data to do the solo processes. I read when I can. I am getting old and have much less time left in this body. I feel as if I am running out of time.

I still read all sorts of things. I meditate every day. I do occasion mental drills, just for the heck of it. And, while I probably do so more than most others, I am not at all "serious" about it, in any strict dedication-sense (which is a weakness of mine that I might some day try to rectify).

I have the same problem when writing on a topic and as I am writing my attention goes onto many others, but my main problem is, once again TIME.

I get what you say about the difficulty of articulating things. I only just barely brush the surface of what I "see" when I try to type up my ideas here. For every idea I type up, I have 10 or 20 others, that are racing though my mind on different levels as I limit myself to just the ones you read here.

I realize I did not write as I intended here. I know I am an immortal spiritual being, so that is not a goal, it is a fact. I should have added that I want it all before I croak; full perceptics, full recall and native abilities. Is that too much to ask?

First, IF you actually are some sort of "immortal being", then no matter what you do, you will remain so. Your existing as an eternal spirit will occur NO MATTER what the details might be of your "pursuit". In a certain sense, you can't help but be so, if it is true. And, if it is not true, then it may not matter. Either way though, the inner realm of mind acts in a way that a) HOW you choose to view the world directly affects b) HOW you experience that world (whether you are eternal or not). Hubbard was very much onto something when he talked about considerations and agreements.

Thank you for the kind words. I rarely feel that I offer anything of value here, but I sure have grown in the short time I have been here and met some wonderful people.

Spirit, thank-you so much for sharing with us here, because you really got me looking at all of this (once again).

 

[Spirit]

That is an excellent approach and much healthier and natural.

Just yesterday I had a headache. I could have taken an Excedrin, but I took a different approach. I sat in a chair, and decided to just LET IT BE and "watch it". As I did so, I noticed any ideas, resistances and energies that popped up and I let them go. 15 minutes later the headache was gone.

 

[Spirit]

I had many different, but related experiences. The "feelings" of being "keyed-out", "blown-out", "and "exterior" overlap.

First, while doing TRs early in my Scientology career (TR 0), I found myself situated between my face and my twin's face. The visual perception was totally clear, not hazy, and was as vivid as any waking moment. I was looking from a point, with 360 degree visual, and it felt totally natural. It didn't seem weird in any way. Of course, I burst out laughing, in a line-charging sort of way, and lost the viewpoint within 10 or 15 seconds. Sometimes I wish I had someone there to immediately start me in on with the processes of Route 1!

While I lost the perception from any location outside the body, this feeling of being NOT connected to the body, lightness, covering a greater space, serenity, along with a disappearances of any and all attention "in here" lasted many hours, and settled down over a few days. All thought disappeared, and I suddenly was simply totally extroverted upon the MEST universe, with no inner yapping, imagining, playing out inner dramas, or talking to self (which we all usually do constantly).

It was entirely enjoyable, and I can't see how any person would not like the same experience. There was NO component of thinkingness at all. I wasn't thinking about feeling larger, or about not having a mind, and simple was in that state. This had NO component of intellect, and was all direct experience. That is why you can't argue with people who experienced such things.

Second, while studying the PDC tapes at Flag, I would spend many hours studying one paragraph, doing drills, making up drills, making up my own essays, and so forth. I got yelled at all of the time by the Supervisor, for "additives", BUT I always managed to give him large amounts of student points, so he let it go. Plus, I was doing GREAT on it. I immersed myself in it. I would go home thinking about it all, relating it all to other ideas, go to bed thinking about, dream about it, and wake up thinking about it.

Now, in effect I was NOT just "reading", and I was constantly "doing things with my mind", and experimenting with the techniques and processes Hubbard talked about. After applying some idea in some section, I suddenly felt myself as "huge", I "filled the entire room". I felt as if "I" was in the back corner of the room, looking down, but still using the body to look through. I had no perception from outside, but I "felt" as if I was very much "outside. Also, as usual, I was totally calm, lost all inner attention and focus, had little or no attention on the body, ceased all mental activity, and was simply "there". As I walked around I felt as if I was a few feet above my head, but directing and using the body. The senses of sight and hearing were through the body. I had to "take a walk", because I could not sit there in the course room in that state.

Third, I had many blow-outs during auditing. These were usually accompanied by great feelings of serenity, expanded sense of "personal" space, ceasing of all attention towards "self" or towards "inside realm of mind and thoughts", increase in vibrancy of colors, and increase of perceptual details of the physical universe.

Rarely did I have any perceptions for a location outside the body as I did with TRs mentioned above. But, I felt "less connected" to the body, and in a sense "outside" to some varying degree. Part of this may very well be that when you lose attention and focus on the mind, aiming inward, that you naturally change to focusing outward, and THIS manifests as many of the "feelings" described above.

I wonder whether or not the term "exteriorization", as existing out from the body, is the BASIC involved here. For example, it seems to me that if I were OUT of the body, with suitable drilling, I should be able to lose all focus or attention on the body, and instead focus on something like my own IMAGINATION. I wish that I had experimented with visualization techniques back then, but I didn't. I felt too GOOD to bother with anything other than simply being there experiencing the physical universe with nothing else. Though, in retrospect, I should be able to experience ANY universe with nothing else!

I want to discuss a few things about this that I think many never bother to notice.

First, some of our experiences are defined by time, meaning that the idea or experience ONLY makes sense spread out over time. The "growth of a tree" is a real thing, and you can have a real idea about it, but it does NOT exist at any specific point in time. It exists spread out OVER time. One can't view "it" here, right now in PT. See, IN FACT, there are MANY things that exist, but you can NEVER see them "in PT". You can see the IDEA of "growth" in PT, but you cannot ever observe growth in PT. Sure, you can take time elapsed photos, and view the progression quickly, but still, time passes. There are a great many REAL things that exist, but because they are spread out over time or involve relationships, they cannot be viewed "in PT".

This has something to do with these experiences of "exterior". How?

Well, just as a frog won't notice the increase of heat or getting boiled alive in a pot if you increase the temperature slowly, so each of us do NOT notice as our overall general state of being changes. I have a theory about this. I could NEVER have the same or similar experiences today doing Scientology, because I am NOT the same person as I was back then when I first "blew out" and "went exterior". I was a young and naive, quite insecure 25 year old. I was confused about a great many things. I had a great many "personal issues". So, what I was "snapping out and away from" was this bundle of "me" as I existed back then. It was an introverted bundle of messy confusion. I didn't have much experience of life, and had not yet spent many years looking into various things, ideas and aspects of life (from many other viewpoints besides Scientology).

For me, and for others I have spoken to, these GREAT experiences and feelings occurred for the most part IN THE BEGINNING. The reason for that, as I see it, is because the largest changes were made in the beginning. But, as you changed, there would not and could not later be such large changes. For me, the later auditing had less and less experiences of this nature. But also, I was less introverted, and generally had a larger space, so any experience of change would be "less".

Now, today, due to a great many factors, not limited to but including long ago Scientology, studies in the occult, experimentation with visualization, meditation and many other things, I commonly exist with a feeling of a clear and large space. If I were to "go exterior" now, the sense of change or feeling would NOT be the same as back then, when I was so stuck in my own personally-created world of significances, ideas and insecurities. The point is that these early feelings of "exterior" only SEEMED so drastic and HUGE because YOU were such a mess back then! They were, as all things, "relative". They appeared a certain way to you, at the time, based on who and what you were at the time.

Many of us grow and evolve naturally through life. I know that my current state of calmness, serenity and sense of space is far more stable than it ever was with Scientology, and this has little to do with involvement with Scientology or any aim to "be exterior". The experiences early on in auditing seem so HUGE because of the comparison and relative factor of what you were like BACK THEN.

I don't desire or need to "be exterior". It doesn't solve any problem for me. But then, in many ways, I probably am what some might call exterior, to a greater or lesser degree, much of the time.

There are many gradations of such experiences. You can be "fully out with perception from the outside location", or you can be "fully out with no perception from the outside location, but still through the body senses". And anywhere in between. And, you can be partially "out" in a myriad of ways.

In the end it might all be a bunch of nonsense from the viewpoint of an entity of awareness. The awareness unit mocks up and exists in some universe. All of it is of the nature of an "illusion". The idea of "being in a body", "being out of a body", and so forth are considerations of awareness. I suspect that these earlier experiences might have been so dramatic for some of us because various mental factors were shaken up so much - in a very large way. You were taking a WHOLE LIFETIME of previous confusion, and shaking it all up. But once you shake up and rearrange all of that, the amount of possible change left afterwards is far less.

I had some of my largest "blow-outs" and "line charging" in the first few hours of Life Repair.

I can't pretend that the experiences didn't exist. But you cannot and should not evaluate them as you "remember them", because you are ignoring the "change over time" factor here. And this factor is extremely important. You have changed, you have grown, you have evolved, due to a great many factors, and any relationship of YOU NOW, with various processes and techniques will NOT result in the same sets of experiences.

These feelings of "sudden blow-out" were a result of a RELATIONSHIP of YOU (as you existed then) with the processes. Some people grasp onto the feelings and experiences, and want to "feel them" like any other enjoyable experience, over again, just like they did before. In a very real sense, one desires to "be the effect" of feeling serene, expansive, and bright.

That was always a problem I had with Scientology. It didn't provide a system of methods so that you could CREATE the feeling and state at will. You were always the unknown EFFECT of some process. It happened "to you". And, it couldn't be predicted or brought about consistently at all. I suspect that due to my extensive experimentation with other practices where one learns to better direct attention, focus and ones inner sense of space, I have some ability to "go exterior" at will - though I cannot be out with any perception (granted I have never tried to either). But, in many other ways, in terms of calm, serenity, loss of mental introversion, ability to be there either extroverted or introverted, I am FAR better than I was back in them early days of Scientology.

Thank you for sharing your experiences in auditing and describing them so well.
I also refuse to accept the TEK to the degree that we do not experiment with processes and techniques. It was one of the LRH lectures (1952 or so) where he was discussing a topic and stated that there was something valid to pursue, but he did not have the inclination and time to do so. He stated that maybe someday someone will work it out, maybe even you. I hate to be vague, but I do not recall the details. The point is, he was encouraging others to work on it and had not established himself as sole source at that time.

 

[Aiki]

I had many different, but related experiences. The "feelings" of being "keyed-out", "blown-out", "and "exterior" overlap.

First, while doing TRs early in my Scientology career (TR 0), I found myself situated between my face and my twin's face. The visual perception was totally clear, not hazy, and was as vivid as any waking moment. I was looking from a point, with 360 degree visual, and it felt totally natural. It didn't seem weird in any way. Of course, I burst out laughing, in a line-charging sort of way, and lost the viewpoint within 10 or 15 seconds. Sometimes I wish I had someone there to immediately start me in on with the processes of Route 1!

While I lost the perception from any location outside the body, this feeling of being NOT connected to the body, lightness, covering a greater space, serenity, along with a disappearances of any and all attention "in here" lasted many hours, and settled down over a few days. All thought disappeared, and I suddenly was simply totally extroverted upon the MEST universe, with no inner yapping, imagining, playing out inner dramas, or talking to self (which we all usually do constantly).

It was entirely enjoyable, and I can't see how any person would not like the same experience. There was NO component of thinkingness at all. I wasn't thinking about feeling larger, or about not having a mind, and simple was in that state. This had NO component of intellect, and was all direct experience. That is why you can't argue with people who experienced such things.

Second, while studying the PDC tapes at Flag, I would spend many hours studying one paragraph, doing drills, making up drills, making up my own essays, and so forth. I got yelled at all of the time by the Supervisor, for "additives", BUT I always managed to give him large amounts of student points, so he let it go. Plus, I was doing GREAT on it. I immersed myself in it. I would go home thinking about it all, relating it all to other ideas, go to bed thinking about, dream about it, and wake up thinking about it.

Now, in effect I was NOT just "reading", and I was constantly "doing things with my mind", and experimenting with the techniques and processes Hubbard talked about. After applying some idea in some section, I suddenly felt myself as "huge", I "filled the entire room". I felt as if "I" was in the back corner of the room, looking down, but still using the body to look through. I had no perception from outside, but I "felt" as if I was very much "outside. Also, as usual, I was totally calm, lost all inner attention and focus, had little or no attention on the body, ceased all mental activity, and was simply "there". As I walked around I felt as if I was a few feet above my head, but directing and using the body. The senses of sight and hearing were through the body. I had to "take a walk", because I could not sit there in the course room in that state.

Third, I had many blow-outs during auditing. These were usually accompanied by great feelings of serenity, expanded sense of "personal" space, ceasing of all attention towards "self" or towards "inside realm of mind and thoughts", increase in vibrancy of colors, and increase of perceptual details of the physical universe.

Rarely did I have any perceptions for a location outside the body as I did with TRs mentioned above. But, I felt "less connected" to the body, and in a sense "outside" to some varying degree. Part of this may very well be that when you lose attention and focus on the mind, aiming inward, that you naturally change to focusing outward, and THIS manifests as many of the "feelings" described above.

I wonder whether or not the term "exteriorization", as existing out from the body, is the BASIC involved here. For example, it seems to me that if I were OUT of the body, with suitable drilling, I should be able to lose all focus or attention on the body, and instead focus on something like my own IMAGINATION. I wish that I had experimented with visualization techniques back then, but I didn't. I felt too GOOD to bother with anything other than simply being there experiencing the physical universe with nothing else. Though, in retrospect, I should be able to experience ANY universe with nothing else!

I want to discuss a few things about this that I think many never bother to notice.

First, some of our experiences are defined by time, meaning that the idea or experience ONLY makes sense spread out over time. The "growth of a tree" is a real thing, and you can have a real idea about it, but it does NOT exist at any specific point in time. It exists spread out OVER time. One can't view "it" here, right now in PT. See, IN FACT, there are MANY things that exist, but you can NEVER see them "in PT". You can see the IDEA of "growth" in PT, but you cannot ever observe growth in PT. Sure, you can take time elapsed photos, and view the progression quickly, but still, time passes. There are a great many REAL things that exist, but because they are spread out over time or involve relationships, they cannot be viewed "in PT".

This has something to do with these experiences of "exterior". How?

Well, just as a frog won't notice the increase of heat or getting boiled alive in a pot if you increase the temperature slowly, so each of us do NOT notice as our overall general state of being changes. I have a theory about this. I could NEVER have the same or similar experiences today doing Scientology, because I am NOT the same person as I was back then when I first "blew out" and "went exterior". I was a young and naive, quite insecure 25 year old. I was confused about a great many things. I had a great many "personal issues". So, what I was "snapping out and away from" was this bundle of "me" as I existed back then. It was an introverted bundle of messy confusion. I didn't have much experience of life, and had not yet spent many years looking into various things, ideas and aspects of life (from many other viewpoints besides Scientology).

For me, and for others I have spoken to, these GREAT experiences and feelings occurred for the most part IN THE BEGINNING. The reason for that, as I see it, is because the largest changes were made in the beginning. But, as you changed, there would not and could not later be such large changes. For me, the later auditing had less and less experiences of this nature. But also, I was less introverted, and generally had a larger space, so any experience of change would be "less".

Now, today, due to a great many factors, not limited to but including long ago Scientology, studies in the occult, experimentation with visualization, meditation and many other things, I commonly exist with a feeling of a clear and large space. If I were to "go exterior" now, the sense of change or feeling would NOT be the same as back then, when I was so stuck in my own personally-created world of significances, ideas and insecurities. The point is that these early feelings of "exterior" only SEEMED so drastic and HUGE because YOU were such a mess back then! They were, as all things, "relative". They appeared a certain way to you, at the time, based on who and what you were at the time.

Many of us grow and evolve naturally through life. I know that my current state of calmness, serenity and sense of space is far more stable than it ever was with Scientology, and this has little to do with involvement with Scientology or any aim to "be exterior". The experiences early on in auditing seem so HUGE because of the comparison and relative factor of what you were like BACK THEN.

I don't desire or need to "be exterior". It doesn't solve any problem for me. But then, in many ways, I probably am what some might call exterior, to a greater or lesser degree, much of the time.

There are many gradations of such experiences. You can be "fully out with perception from the outside location", or you can be "fully out with no perception from the outside location, but still through the body senses". And anywhere in between. And, you can be partially "out" in a myriad of ways.

In the end it might all be a bunch of nonsense from the viewpoint of an entity of awareness. The awareness unit mocks up and exists in some universe. All of it is of the nature of an "illusion". The idea of "being in a body", "being out of a body", and so forth are considerations of awareness. I suspect that these earlier experiences might have been so dramatic for some of us because various mental factors were shaken up so much - in a very large way. You were taking a WHOLE LIFETIME of previous confusion, and shaking it all up. But once you shake up and rearrange all of that, the amount of possible change left afterwards is far less.

I had some of my largest "blow-outs" and "line charging" in the first few hours of Life Repair.

I can't pretend that the experiences didn't exist. But you cannot and should not evaluate them as you "remember them", because you are ignoring the "change over time" factor here. And this factor is extremely important. You have changed, you have grown, you have evolved, due to a great many factors, and any relationship of YOU NOW, with various processes and techniques will NOT result in the same sets of experiences.

These feelings of "sudden blow-out" were a result of a RELATIONSHIP of YOU (as you existed then) with the processes. Some people grasp onto the feelings and experiences, and want to "feel them" like any other enjoyable experience, over again, just like they did before. In a very real sense, one desires to "be the effect" of feeling serene, expansive, and bright.

That was always a problem I had with Scientology. It didn't provide a system of methods so that you could CREATE the feeling and state at will. You were always the unknown EFFECT of some process. It happened "to you". And, it couldn't be predicted or brought about consistently at all. I suspect that due to my extensive experimentation with other practices where one learns to better direct attention, focus and ones inner sense of space, I have some ability to "go exterior" at will - though I cannot be out with any perception (granted I have never tried to either). But, in many other ways, in terms of calm, serenity, loss of mental introversion, ability to be there either extroverted or introverted, I am FAR better than I was back in them early days of Scientology.

Now, could I develop the ability to "be out", and perceive with total clarity and consciousness? Maybe. Bur for me, I simply place no value in that, and concern myself with other things (to thus develop my character which I might then carry forward in a Karmic sense).

Great. Now we're being on point more. Enjoyable read.

The descriptions you give on exterior in various degrees give good real realities. So we are getting more actual inspection on what OT means rather than what everyone 'thinks' it means. You see, hubbard had the "idea" of superman type "physical spirit" roaming around and knocking off hats and tried to attain it and so totally believed that would be the case. Like a hidden standard type thing. This one little factor is what some latched on to and then got dissappointed. Ego. His and theirs. This doesn't detract for me the potential and the fact that he carried on researching. In fact if people are honest, so did they carry on researching. Experimenting in their own time. I GUARANTEE it because it's natural to do so.

So, some points to do with first time type experiences being the "big" changes and your reasoning as to why. I like the observation but disagree on the whole with the reasoning. Yes all the experiences had differences and yes it leaves one wondering later about those differences. The answer is actually very simple in essence but as is the case across the board and will be always it is to do with a reality one has to face. The reality one has to face takes humility and it is this:

There you are doing a drill or whatever and you experience one of those great experiences you described. You find it's very real and great in fact. Why? That's the first thing to look at. Why did you personally find it so great?

Basically because innate to you was the knowing that there was more to you than you had realized and indeed that 'society' said or culture told you or 'experts' said. Thus from all angles it's one great big ginormous VALIDATION.

So then the question of why? again. Why did it have those particular aspects to the experience? Why didn't it have other aspects you may think in retrospect "should have been there" or "could have been there"? Why? This is the harder one to accept. The one that takes humility.

Because that's all you could HAVE. That's what you were willing to experience comfortably and thus confront with REALITY. That's why. That also is why the experiences are different for different folk. Bottom line is we still have things, considerations preventing us going any further than we did at such times. For instance you may well have thought you wouldn't mind going completely exterior and floating down the road and seeing if the shop was open. All kkind of thoughts and desires prior to the happening. But how real are they in the first place? The potential is real so don't blame that. No, really look at yourself for the answer.....nowhere else. Did you REALLY trust leaving the body there without you with it? Be honest now. It just laying there without you, no connection. Woah, hold on a minute......did you REALLY trust letting go of body eyesight completely? Woahhhhh......"yeah but, no but , ummm but"" ha ha. So we tend to let ourselves experience what we would be comfortable with albeit desired but within what we consider reasonable boundaries based on what we could accept without too much fear.

So now in relation then those next changes take longer and are harder to get because they are the bigger more enforced or solid ones we are putting there to delineate what's safe for us. In other words we won't improve visio until we understand it much better first. Why? Because only then may we feel we have enough understanding and it's safe to let go of the physical body visio completely. Now that doesn't mean forever or any such thing but if so would then give choice for example apart from the fact that both wouldn't be the 'same'.

That's all on that point, have much to say on other points above too but gotta go now.

Peace.Aiki.

 

[Spirit]

Damn, you guys have some long posts. Fast typists or voice recognition software?

 

[Terril park]

I did not do this during the drill. It was later that night, I had a pain in my leg. Used a Tone 40 command for my leg to stop hurting. Ah success! Being ignorant as to the proper way of exteriorizing, I gave myself the Tone 40 exteriorization command. Damn, I was pleased, until the staff at FCDC started crawling my shit about my squirreling ways. Until then, I was totally blown out. Of course I had to have a meter check, which restored my lofty state.

I am fortunate that I did not pursue the Bridge any further. As for the ability, it never went away for me, but it did get harder at times.

What you did was not squirrelling. The ashtray drill is there to increase ability to
use tone 40 in commands and statements. Found on for example L-12 and
admin TRs. Admin TRs are practice to use tone 40 in reallife situations. Where one might use any sort of statement or command. Was primarily intended to be used by an exec in an org situation, but is equally applicable to child care etc.

You found a workable and creative use.

I thus certify that you have passed tone 40 drills
and TOTB drills. [thinking outside the box]

Terril Park [ESMB Qual sec]

 

[Veda]

Advertised "EP":

-snip-

we are getting more actual inspection on what OT means rather than what everyone 'thinks' it means. You see, hubbard had the "idea" of superman type "physical spirit" roaming around and knocking off hats and tried to attain it and so totally believed that would be the case. Like a hidden standard type thing.

-snip-

Oh no, not the "hidden standard" line.

Anything but that!

Operating Thetan is a Hubbardism, and Hubbard defined it.

From the Scientology 'Tech Dictionary':

"Operating Thetan, a thetan exterior who can have but doesn't have to have a body in order to control or operate thought, life, matter, energy, space and time... an individual who can operate totally independently of his body whether he had one or didn't have one... a being at cause over matter, energy, space and time, form and life. Operating comes from 'able to operate without dependency on things'... ability to operate functionally against or with MEST and other life forms... this state of being is attained by drills and familiarity after the state of Clear has been obtained."

Some background...

In 1965, Clear was presented as removing the final barrier to OT; in 1967, OT 3 was presented as removing the final barrier to OT; in the early 1970s, the Ls were presented as removing the final barrier to OT; in the late 1970s, NOTs was presented as removing the final barrier to OT.

Up to the late 1970s, OT 8 was the top and final OT level, and was described as "Total Freedom and Total Power."

After Hubbard had established his cult, and some people were beginning to wonder, "Where are the OTs?," the Grade Chart was changed, with old "OT 8" (which was never released, and never actually existed) disappearing and being replaced with "New OT 8." "New OT 8" was then not the final or top OT level but the first OT level: Bait and Switch accomplished. Well adjusted Scientologists nodded approvingly.

Hubbard and Scientology have been selling superhuman abilities, including godlike "cause over MEST," for a long time.

1) First promise super human abilities

2) Take money, gain confidence, assert influence over the eager future Scientology superman&god

3) Take more money, and exert more influence

4) Eventually explain that what Hubbard originally said actually meant something else, or that "OT" really means something else.

Now to be "bend-over-backwards" fair, in Magic(k) and Mysticism there's an idea called "confusing of the planes." There is the physical plane and the spiritual plane. The physical plane is regarded as being, essentially, an illusion. One pounds one's illusory fist on the illusory table to prove that the illusory table is real, etc. From this comes a certain contempt for those unenlightened materialists who demand "proof." And this view is what Hubbard was tapping into with his various (after the money had been taken) "explanations."

A simple explanation is that we are just too dense to see the more rarefied side of things and, once acclimated to that more rarefied side, are much too rarefied to interact in a manner that would be convincing to the average dense dweller in "MEST."

And, by itself, at least that could be an honest explanation.

But that's not what Scientology does. Scientology is not an honest subject. Scientology promises one thing and doesn't deliver and then proceeds to weasel-word about it.


Actual "EP":

Notice that the desperate "OT" is now mixing practices.​

 

[Spirit]

What you did was not squirrelling. The ashtray drill is there to increase ability to
use tone 40 in commands and statements. Found on for example L-12 and
admin TRs. Admin TRs are practice to use tone 40 in reallife situations. Where one might use any sort of statement or command. Was primarily intended to be used by an exec in an org situation, but is equally applicable to child care etc.

You found a workable and creative use.

I thus certify that you have passed tone 40 drills
and TOTB drills. [thinking outside the box]

Terril Park [ESMB Qual sec]

Terril,

Thanik you. I like the term TOTB drills.

The main objection to my actions from the FCDC staff seemed to be the way I did this. I gave myself a command to 'be three feet behind my head', instead of just doing it.
Therefore, I was in a sense mocking up a terminal to replace an auditor. Now, I find folks here that solo audit COHA processes in the same fashion as I was doing.
I have done some further[STRIKE] self[/STRIKE] solo auditing, but with a twist that perhaps is not necessary. I would rephrase the command into a statement, such as replacing 'be three feet behind your head' or "be three feet behind my head' with "I am three feet behind my head". If this is unnecessary, it would eliminate the exta step.

 

[Aiki]

As time was mentioned thought I'd add this. You can actually observe growth and you can re experience and indeed learn from, analyze, review or whatever past big wins. That last one is easy enough, basically it comes from rehabilitation. The time one maybe not so easy to understand without experiencing it.

If you consider you can't observe something then of course you can't but in my experience what I say above is true.

Firstly all things grow at different rates so if something is growing fast enough you can't really miss observing it. So that's the easy one. Second is the not so easy but falls under the category of spiritual ability and spiritual perception.

The one thing I find strange is that so many say analytically that they want some specific ability and complain when they don't get it yet fail to recognize that if they really want it it would involve practice over time bit by bit until good at it. As I said before, no difference to any other ability you want be it swimming or skydiving.

The ability to experience and indeed view different time and different aspects of time is real, in various ways. Different abilities can be had just on that one thing let alone anything else. Take for example deja vu. Real. Problem is most can't explain what it actually is or define it or understand it and so cannot predict it or control it or cause it to happen at will. Being able to would be quite an ability would.t you say?

So once again I'll defer to old times and the old places. Tibetan monks for example as well as yogis. Some would follow a structure where you were to find the ability you wanted to learn and follow that alone. Meditate, contemplate, learn, practice just that one thing for years and years until you can do it at will. That's just ONE. Then we come to modern day and see everyone demanding things NOW. Instant gratification. With the cheek to complain if not given.

Now, seers see the future. Other types of folk under different 'labels' do simolar but all to do with future. So long time ahead future and deja vu.....very close future. So it is possible to see in terms of that time. Well we all know it's possible to see in terms of things already happened ie: past but even within that there are different ways people do it.

So then we come to present time. Being in pt. Soooooooo misunderstood or not understood.

When you think about it there is a whole set of folks who specialize in that one thing. They dedicate their lives to it. Zen Monks. That should tell you something right there. That should tell you there must be a whole load of levels of this thing called pt. A whole load of lot to learn so it's fine saying what you could do from it but not what you can't because how would you know that?

Many mystics and gurus make me laugh when they in all their false wisdom tell me youcan never know something. How do they know?

A real master at doing something is the only one who knows so all else is 'lesser' form of knowing at best.

So what can you do from pt? How much pt.? Can you do something with pt itself? Is there more to do with pt than meets the eye?

Well to me personally there is much more to be understood about pt than I have seen given as explanations by most. Much more.

Here's a nice statement for you from me. "When 'fully' in pt things slow down for you, the one in pt."

I don't mean subjectively either. For real. So there is one aspect and indeed ability and perception I KNOW can be practiced and used.

I would go so far as to make this statement as a stable datum; "the more you are in present time comfortably the more you can see, observe" The I would add this "You can expand present time"

Peace.Aiki.

 

[Spirit]

Knowing you can not know something, is a knowingness so knowing you can not know something is therefore, impossible! Now that is funny!

Many mystics and gurus make me laugh when they in all their false wisdom tell me youcan never know something. How do they know?


Peace.Aiki.

Now this creates one hell of a cognition!

So what can you do from pt? How much pt.? Can you do something with pt itself? Is there more to do with pt than meets the eye?

Well to me personally there is much more to be understood about pt than I have seen given as explanations by most. Much more.

Here's a nice statement for you from me. "When 'fully' in pt things slow down for you, the one in pt."

I don't mean subjectively either. For real. So there is one aspect and indeed ability and perception I KNOW can be practiced and used.

I would go so far as to make this statement as a stable datum; "the more you are in present time comfortably the more you can see, observe" The I would add this "You can expand present time"

Peace.Aiki.

 

[Aiki]

Gadfly.
You mention you don't desire being exterior as it doesn't solve any problems and yet you say many folk may consider you are.

Well, as it is a 'degrees of' thing then I too would say you are. So then I would say as it fits you so well and you enjoy it and indeed wouldn't have it any other way the compare it to when you were not so. Just saying that it must have solved plenty of problems.

This is why I say it's best to actually study things and see there are varying conditions of everything, every state, so it's not a matter of am or am not but more how much are you. To answer this you would have to be aware of a whole load of 'degrees of'.

So people foolishly say "I want that" pointing to a full blown perfect condition if you will and I want it by that time you told me I can have it. That is foolish way of thinking. You are bound to be conned if you think like that. By thinking like that you have already conned yourself.

Now I'll tell you what I believe to do with why a person cannot do something or why a person gets let's say an exterior experience and then wonders later why they couldn't actually see, have visio, with that particular experience. Fear. Understanding the mechanics of fear. Without that understanding it will remain a mystery and thus the conclusion given to self will be amiss.

Peace.Aiki.

 

[Gadfly]

"When 'fully' in pt things slow down for you, the one in pt.

I don't mean subjectively either. For real." - Aiki

Cripes, "for you" MEANS "subjective".

The experience of time, between YOU and whatever else involves a relationship.

The state or condition of YOU in relation to the stuff out there (or in here), directly effects HOW you EXPERIENCE IT.

They are ALL "real". It is just that the experience of reality changes depending on the state or condition of the observer. This is simply taking Einstein's theory of relativity and applying it to consciousnesses and personal experience.

There is no "real experience of reality" off alone by itself without an observer to experience some aspect of reality.

It is a relationship:

Experience - The Experiencer

What is Observed - The Observer

The RELATIONSHIP between the two result in an experience that "appears as real". THAT is "reality". But there is no EXPERIENCE of reality possible without the observer, or without the relationship between the observer and what is observed. All of Einstein's talks on such things involved "from the viewpoint of an observer". He was right to point that out and make it clear. Far too many people fail to take the state of the observer into account (with psychological and spiritual things).

People who get all wrapped up in "what is it really", or "what is it without any observer" fail to grasp that there is NO POSSIBILITY OF ANY EXPERIENCE without the relative factor of the relationship between some observer and what is observed. The simply truth is that things appear and are experienced differently depending on HOW you look at them. Let me repeat that, because it is actually quite important:

The simply truth is that things appear and are experienced very differently depending on HOW and FROM WHERE you look at them.

Arguing about such things can get absurd, because you can have a REAL experience that is entirely different than my own REAL experience. The subjective state of any person very much affects how they experience anything. It is a key variable and factor.

Yes, time appears to and is experienced as slowing down when one is fully in PT. It really does, but when you are out of PT, and fully enjoying whatever it is that you are doing, or all wrapped up in something, it REALLY speeds up (it passes by quickly). The perception of time is ALWAYS subjective. Why does that bother some people? I suppose some people need and want there to be some "objective truth". They feel lost without that.

All EXPERIENCES of reality involve the observer, what is observed and the relationship between the two. And, once you decide to ignore or discard "experiences", there is nothing there, because nothing is there to have an experience.

Look at a circle drawn perfectly on a piece of paper. When you look off-axis, it appears and is experienced as an ellipse. Which is it "really"? All and none. Looking at it directly, at a full 90-degree angle (perfectly perpendicular), is just ONE ARBITRARY way to view the object, but many people ASSUME or make up the judgment that this is somehow superior to all other ways to view it. So, looking directly at it, at a 90 degree angle causes it to appear as a circle:

But all other views, from any other angle, get it to appear as an ellipse:

And, actually, if you look at the circle directly from the side, along the plane of the circle, it appears to be a LINE!


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So which is it "really"? All of them, and how it appears only depends on from where you are looking. The experience is quite conditional, and all experiences are real and valid. And they can be very different. ACTUAL REALITY would be the set of ALL possible combinations of how to view and experience the object! THAT is "truth" in this case. Extrapolate this notion to a great many other things, and you will begin to grasp what I am pointing out here.

Things change depending from where you look at them. There is no "the way it is really". The perception or experience of the nature or quality of anything involves a relationship between a looker, and what is being looked at.

Time doesn't exist without an "experience of time". And THAT is always relative to some observer who does the experiencing. One really needs to grasp the nature of how all reality, once any of it is experienced, is always relative. Of course, you can't know anything about it until and unless you experience some aspect of it. And any experience is conditional, specific, temporal and spacial.

Any experience is just one of an infinite number of possibilities that fall out of the undefined field of quantum reality. Actual reality is all possibilities, and what we experience is just some unique but random combination of observer and observed, where the state of the observer has a great deal to do with what is observed (and how).

Before one gets all up in arms about "what is the actual nature of reality", one needs to FIRST get a firm handle on the nature of experience, and how THAT is so incredibly relative, and largely determined by the state of the observer - YOU!