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Marc & Claire Headley's appeal, starting Feb 9th 2012

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
A new thread for the appeal.

From OCMB: http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=53285

Jonny Jacobsen has some news on the Headley's appeal...
Albion, posting on WWP wrote:
So far as the Headleys are concerned, the ministerial exception
issue is very much on the agenda. Who says so? The appeal
court judges hearing their cases.

Their lawyers have been told that at oral argument they should
be prepared to discuss the Hosanna-Tabor ruling and its applicability
-- or otherwise -- to these cases.

As I mentioned earlier at Infinite Complacency, the Headleys
and their lawyers have been summoned to the U.S. Court of
Appeals, Ninth Circuit, to present oral arguments on their
appeal against the dismissal of their cases. Here's their court listing
here: as you can see the hearing starts on Thursday, February 9,
at 9:00 am.

For my original write-up of Marc's case see here.

For my write-up of Claire's case see here.

For my speculation on how Hosanna Tabor might be relevant
see here (written before the Supreme Court judgment).

And for my write-up of the Supreme Court ruling see http://infinitecomplacency.blogspot.com/2012/01/supreme-court-confirms-ministerial.html.

Best,

Jonny Jacobsen

Some relevant threads:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?10157-March-5th-Update-on-Headley-Labor-Cases

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...s-RTC-CSI-Update-10.09&highlight=marc+headley

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?19603-Judge-dismisses-two-lawsuits-aimed-at-Scientology
 
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FoTi

Crusader
I hope the Hedleys get real justice this time.....and an axe to the cult. CoS deserves a real good kick in the butt. :buttkick:
 
naaaa....

wrong lane of assault

the ministerial exception is good law. i do not like the way CoS operates but it's not my shop. i accepted it's bonafides as a religious organization from first examination.
i studied as a public in san francisco and did a turn as staff staff auditor at fcdc and treated it as such

religious institutions are welcome to their lawful privileges, it is good law, it has my personal support and defense

there are other ways
 
naaaa.... wrong lane of assault. The ministerial exception is good law. i do not like the way CoS operates but it's not my shop. i accepted it's bonafides as a religious organization from first examination.
i studied as a public in san francisco and did a turn as staff staff auditor at fcdc and treated it as such

religious institutions are welcome to their lawful privileges, it is good law, it has my personal support and defense

there are other ways

While I agree that religious institutions should be unfettered in their belief, as per the constitution, I do not feel that right trumps all other laws. Otherwise, for instance, you could argue that a religion that has sex with minors as it's sacrament is held harmless.

Mimsey
 

Truth&Honesty

Patron with Honors
.
The law regarding ministerial exceptions, should never be misconstrued to allow a church to hide its crimes.

If anyone, including a church, commits a crime, then they should be tried in a criminal court.


Claire and Marc, I believe you will win. Good luck in your appeal!
 
While I agree that religious institutions should be unfettered in their belief, as per the constitution, I do not feel that right trumps all other laws. Otherwise, for instance, you could argue that a religion that has sex with minors as it's sacrament is held harmless.

Mimsey

sex with minors obviously is not covered by ministerial exception. minimum wage law is. so too are some child labor laws. and other things with which i am not familiar

the CoSuckers are egregious and abusive with their exploitation of those laws.

but they are within the letter of the law

marc and claire have support from antiscientology persons and also antichurch persons who want to excise all clerical privelege thus CoS not only has the letter of the law but even many people uncomfortable with CoS conduct are, thank god, ardent in support of the law.

marc and claire are going after minimum wage back pay and the failure of the suit is a no-brainer. ok, maybe they can get some go away $. maybe but not likely

no. the law extensively protects CoS. when they actually go over the line a suit can have a chance but all it's going to do is cost CoS a few bucks

nope.

the only potentially effective assault must involve a spearhead of persons who accede to the creed of the church and the auditor's code. an intelligent plan of action in conjunction with some merry pranksters could do something. i don't see anyone expressing any interest in an intelligent plan of action
 
.
The law regarding ministerial exceptions, should never be misconstrued to allow a church to hide its crimes.

If anyone, including a church, commits a crime, then they should be tried in a criminal court.


Claire and Marc, I believe you will win. Good luck in your appeal!

but what is the crime?
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
sex with minors obviously is not covered by ministerial exception. minimum wage law is. so too are some child labor laws. and other things with which i am not familiar

the CoSuckers are egregious and abusive with their exploitation of those laws.

but they are within the letter of the law
I agree that the ministerial exemption is sometimes valid.

However, there are some issues here that you are not addressing.

First of all, there is the issue of to whom the ministerial exception should apply. If someone is in the Sea Org but has received no "religious" training and works solely doing unskilled or semi-skilled labor, are they really a religious official in any meaningful sense?

Secondly, Sea Org members are typically recruited as teens and as far as I can tell, what they are told about the actual employment conditions and the reality are significantly different. I don't think ministerial exemption means they can lie to recruits and then just say, "Too bad. You're a religious official so we can do what we want."

Finally, while the IRS caved, I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that the Church of Scientology is not a bona fide religious organization but a commercial enterprise that uses religion as a flag of convenience*. Its attempts to designate employees as ministers, volunteers or whatever status they feel they can get away with in a particular jurisdiction are merely examples of how it exploits this as it does any other legal loophole it can find.

Part of this approach could also bring in Miscavige's compensation (he's a Sea Org member too, right?), work done for Tom Cruise, etc.

* Note: this is entirely separate to the question of whether Scientology is a "religion".
 
I agree that the ministerial exemption is sometimes valid.

However, there are some issues here that you are not addressing.

First of all, there is the issue of to whom the ministerial exception should apply. If someone is in the Sea Org but has received no "religious" training and works solely doing unskilled or semi-skilled labor, are they really a religious official in any meaningful sense?

Secondly, Sea Org members are typically recruited as teens and as far as I can tell, what they are told about the actual employment conditions and the reality are significantly different. I don't think ministerial exemption means they can lie to recruits and then just say, "Too bad. You're a religious official so we can do what we want."

Finally, while the IRS caved, I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that the Church of Scientology is not a bona fide religious organization but a commercial enterprise that uses religion as a flag of convenience*. Its attempts to designate employees as ministers, volunteers or whatever status they feel they can get away with in a particular jurisdiction are merely examples of how it exploits this as it does any other legal loophole it can find.

Part of this approach could also bring in Miscavige's compensation (he's a Sea Org member too, right?), work done for Tom Cruise, etc.

* Note: this is entirely separate to the question of whether Scientology is a "religion".

i would love to address such things

other religious organizations pay their hired help. marc did work which is always paid at least minimum wage and usually at or near market value by responsible churches synagogues etc. but CoS is structured differently. and the structure is within the letter of the law

it can only be addressed internally which means by people who stand up, dig their heels in and say NO

i am an auditor. i say NO

i can't do much alone

i don't see anyone presenting or willing to listen to intelligent plans of action
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
The church of unusual solutions cannot afford to pay it's staff a living wage and management organisations as well.

It should do neither, just hand in the towel.:yes:
 
The church of unusual solutions cannot afford to pay it's staff a living wage and management organisations as well.

It should do neither, just hand in the towel.:yes:

actually it could.

both training and auditing are marketable products capable of being produced by a nonprofit organization which pays it's auditors a very good living wage and all necessary personnel at least minimum

this would of course necessitate the dismissal of the dir dev-t who appears to currently be considered the mastermind of the operation
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
other religious organizations pay their hired help. marc did work which is always paid at least minimum wage and usually at or near market value by responsible churches synagogues etc. but CoS is structured differently. and the structure is within the letter of the law

This aspect of law is unclear. The Supreme Court's recent ruling acknowledged this, while deciding it did not need to clarify it in order to rule on that particular case.

There is still a reasonable argument that Sea Org are not covered by ministerial exemption, or at least are not inherently covered.
 
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