Marc Headley on Glosslip radio interview

[Alanzo]

Hey, I bet you didn't think of the little stick men until you had written down the paperclips and batteries, then put them in for my benefit.

Paul

 

[Grasshopper]

I just wrote a long thing here and with a press of a button it was gone..

Ok, so I am listening to Mark and I am emotionally shaken. Even if I have been for years, and thousands of miles away, it just unbelievable. Still. Mark is so matter of fact, down to earth, just great.

For me it was also a physical thing that was the last straw, not with DM but one of his main slave. Mark is correct - help is the main thing that got me. Imagine, you are an average person and you can become a powerful, special person who can change the sorry state of the planet! The purpose becomes yours, then it becomes you. That's why you just take everything and explain away anything. The effort of just keeping your thoughts straight - because you believe that you will get caught and anyway, it is out-ethics! - the no sleep, no time to eat, the mental and physical torment gets you in a mess. Then you either grab onto a Scientology data, person (DM, LRH) or not. In case of "not", it becomes "anywhere but here". At least this is what happened to me. I didn't care. It did not matter if I would live or die, I just had to NOT BE THERE.

So you have to confront yourself at the end, your integrity, your promise to yourself, and that's why it is not easy. Some people really have a hard time with that - I did too. It's like you fell into the sea, you learn how to "breath" under water, you develop a gill, but you see all these sharks who were supposed to help you, getting closer and closer with their big teeth showing, threatening... you look around, but this is your life! How can you leave? Then you start feeling the sharks getting closer, they bit into your flesh, you are losing blood... and you jump out of the water onto the land. It is not easy to breath with lungs again, but feels great with no pressure...

 

[Alanzo]

I know what you mean, WO.

For me, it surfaced a deep, deep embarrassment that I had ever been part of that stupid fucking cult.

How completely idiotic of me to swallow all that, and to spend that much time working for it for free, and to put off the rest of my life and future for it as long as I did.

It's astounding. Kind of hard to fathom right now for me.

I realized that as long as I NEEDED it, I was blind to everything around me that was SCREAMING this was a stupid fucking cult. When I didn't need it anymore, all those things became so VISIBLE to me, and then it all just collapsed.

And it is still collapsing, 7 years later. After interviews like this, another edifice just collapsed inside me.

I need to go do some yard work to burn off some more embarrassment.

A great interview.

Made me see myself in a whole new way.

 

[gomorrhan]

And wear body armor. Stay in crowded areas. Stay in touch with people who know you.

 

[Free to shine]

At least this is what happened to me. I didn't care. It did not matter if I would live or die, I just had to NOT BE THERE.

So you have to confront yourself at the end, your integrity, your promise to yourself, and that's why it is not easy. Some people really have a hard time with that - I did too. It's like you fell into the sea, you learn how to "breath" under water, you develop a gill, but you see all these sharks who were supposed to help you, getting closer and closer with their big teeth showing, threatening... you look around, but this is your life! How can you leave? Then you start feeling the sharks getting closer, they bit into your flesh, you are losing blood... and you jump out of the water onto the land. It is not easy to breath with lungs again, but feels great with no pressure...

Grasshopper, what a great description! That's exactly how I felt. It is about integrity to yourself, the very thing that we thought was the end product of our involvement, when in fact we had to leave to find it again. What a trap it is.

 

[Free to shine]

I know what you mean, WO.

For me, it surfaced a deep, deep embarrassment that I had ever been part of that stupid fucking cult.

How completely idiotic of me to swallow all that, and to spend that much time working for it for free, and to put off the rest of my life and future for it as long as I did.

It's astounding. Kind of hard to fathom right now for me.

I realized that as long as I NEEDED it, I was blind to everything around me that was SCREAMING this was a stupid fucking cult. When I didn't need it anymore, all those things became so VISIBLE to me, and then it all just collapsed.

And it is still collapsing, 7 years later. After interviews like this, another edifice just collapsed inside me.

I need to go do some yard work to burn off some more embarrassment.

A great interview.

Made me see myself in a whole new way.

Alanzo, that's interesting.
I don't think you should be embarrassed about being involved in trying to help your fellows. Ever.
It's noble really.

What could be embarrassing is hearing and seeing the red flags, and staying anyway. Yet even that shows a terrific desire to do the right thing despite the odds, a tenacity and strength to be admired.

No, don't be embarrassed my friend. We just had blinkers for a while.

 

[gomorrhan]

The intention to help is admirable, I agree. The shame is in having had a con run on you. I mean, you could work for Habitat for Humanity and help people, and you wouldn't be involved in a con. Then, you're right, the "red flags" start popping up, you start to realize "hey, maybe this is a fucking con!" or "I'm helping people, yes, but at what price, and by whose definitions... wtf is going on here", and yet still staying. The worst, though, I would imagine, is not having ever noticed anything was wrong and then being offloaded. That would really be embarrassing: getting offloaded, rather than having left.

 

[Zinjifar]

The only 'help' Scientology ever offers is Scientology for all. All 'social services' Scientology offers are merely offered as a 'Bridge to the Bridge' as Scientology refers to it.

'Helping' is not in the Scientology philosophy; unless it's helping Scientology.

After all; it's Mankind's Only Hope

Zinj

 

[Free to shine]

The only 'help' Scientology ever offers is Scientology for all. All 'social services' Scientology offers are merely offered as a 'Bridge to the Bridge' as Scientology refers to it.

'Helping' is not in the Scientology philosophy; unless it's helping Scientology.

After all; it's Mankind's Only Hope

Zinj

Yeah but Zinjybabe, that's not how you see it when you are there. Until it becomes all too obvious.

 

[gomorrhan]

It's not true that a scientologist doesn't have the intent to help the person he works with (not categorically). I knew many helpful scientologists. And it wasn't just about getting you "on the Bridge", although that would have been great, by their lights. They thought that what they were doing to help, was helpful, and in many cases, with me, it was!

You could get into definitions of help, and I'm happy to go that route, but I think it just boils down to taking actions that the other person considers put forward their goals.

 

[Emma]

I know what you mean, WO.

For me, it surfaced a deep, deep embarrassment that I had ever been part of that stupid fucking cult.

How completely idiotic of me to swallow all that, and to spend that much time working for it for free, and to put off the rest of my life and future for it as long as I did.

It's astounding. Kind of hard to fathom right now for me.

I realized that as long as I NEEDED it, I was blind to everything around me that was SCREAMING this was a stupid fucking cult. When I didn't need it anymore, all those things became so VISIBLE to me, and then it all just collapsed.

And it is still collapsing, 7 years later. After interviews like this, another edifice just collapsed inside me.

I need to go do some yard work to burn off some more embarrassment.

A great interview.

Made me see myself in a whole new way.

Hey Alanzo,

I know exatly how you feel. I've felt exactly the same from time to time over the years.

A few years ago "Cerridwen" wrote a post to a.r.s saying "The hard part is dealing with how fucking stupid I've been for so long." and Kristi Wachter wrote a reply to her that touched a lot of people at the time. Kristi's post meant a lot to me and I posted it here on ESMB very early on but I think it got lost. So here it is again....

My dear, dear Cerri,

Thank you so much for your wonderful post.

I loved reading about your gardening, and I always love reading your thoughts and feelings as you continue growing and learning and seeing new things from the new perspectives you're acquiring.

One thing you wrote, though, really differed from my viewpoint, and I wanted to share my thoughts and my perspective on it.

You wrote,
“The hard part is dealing with how fucking stupid I've been for so long."

And that just raised a big red flag for me - because I've never known you to be stupid.

I mean, we all make mistakes, and in fact we all make stupid mistakes, and depending on the circumstances of our lives, those stupid mistakes sometimes have repercussions that affect our whole lives and the lives of those we love, and sometimes we seem to "get away with it" - one person can make a stupid decision, knowing how stupid it is, to have unprotected sex with a stranger, and become infected with HIV, and die, after years of horrible suffering and grief to self and family and friends; and another can make the same stupid decision and NOT become infected. The extent to which our stupid mistakes and our stupid decisions affect our lives does not necessarily reflect how many we've made or how stupid they've been.
But here's the thing - even smart people make some stupid decisions (even some colossally stupid decisions), and that doesn't make them stupid people.

I'm not even really sure there is such a thing as a stupid person. There are lots of people whose values differ from mine, which is a different thing; and there are lots of people who haven't been exposed to the same facts I have, and people who have developed learning systems that make them process those facts to reach different conclusions than I have. But that doesn't make them stupid.Here's the thing - you and I are humans, and humans are learners. That's what we are. That's what we do. All our long lives, from the early days when we're learning to recognize Mom's voice and Dad's face, to the very ends of our lives, we learn.

I have this image in my head of a giant vacuum machine sucking up everything in its path. It has hundreds of suction tubes that suck things in from all different directions. If a chunk of rock gets stuck in one of the tubes, it won't work quite as well. I think that's what happened to you.

There you were, going along in your life, learning learning learning, and you came across Scientology. And you learned lots and lots of things - you learned some things about communication and about how to be more productive with your time and some other ideas that seemed useful and valid.

But you also sucked in a rock - you learned that some information is bad and dangerous and should be kept out of your learning system altogether.

Now, part of the learning system we all develop is a set of internal filters. A piece of information comes in, and we evaluate it. "Hmm - seems to make sense; comes from a source I've known to be reliable - let's put that in the Reliable Information pile. Now this other one - doesn't reflect other information I've deemed reliable, so let's put that on the False pile."
Scientology disrupts those filters, and plugs up some of your intake valves - rather a lot of them, I think - by telling you that lots of sources aren't to be trusted (SPs, the news media, natterers), and that certain information is so dangerous it can jeopardize your entire eternity (the OT levels, discussing your case with someone else).

So in addition to blocking some of your inputs altogether, it also, as I said, messes with your internal filters. It does this, I think, in two ways: first, by confusing values with facts, and second, by making it dangerous to examine either facts or values.

First, I've found it useful in my own understanding of the world to learn to separate facts from values when I'm learning about and judging an idea. But Scientology teachings can make it very hard to do this.

For example, Scientology teaches that, if you're having trouble understanding something, it's because you went past a misunderstood word.

Now, it appears to me, an outsider, that there is a set of values - judgement - condemnation in that, and that it is HIDDEN. Scientology purports to avoid punishment, to provide tech to rehabilitate any immorality and repair any damage you've done. But I think this is just what Scientology SAYS; I think, in reality, there's punishment and condemnation and shame and guilt and judgementalism all over the place in Scientology.

So let's say you're having trouble understanding something you're reading - maybe not even something related to Scientology. You immediately look for the misunderstood word you went past - an act which is, if I'm not mistaken, an overt. So conciously, you're simply doing the mechanical process of finding the point where things went wrong and fixing it; but unconciously, you're aware that you've Done Something Wrong. This confuses asserted values - you did a Bad Thing - with asserted facts - you went past a word you didn't understand. It's important in a case like this to evaluate BOTH the asserted "facts" - did you really go past a word you didn't understand? Does that act really cause you to be unable to understand what comes later on? - AND the asserted values - is it really a counter-survival, Bad act to read past a word you don't FULLY understand?

But if you're feeling, naturally, ashamed of having done a Bad Thing, you're not inclined to objectively examine the assertions or the values, because it's less painful to accept the teaching than to be REALLY bad and go down the road of doubting.

Scientology mixes value judgements - and condemnation - in with its unfounded assertions, making it uch harder to question them than it would be even under normal circumstances.

So, I said another way Scientology interferes with your learning system is by making it dangerous to examine facts, or values, or both.

In my experience, to judge an idea well, we have to learn to look for its underlying assumptions and judge THOSE. This is hard to do, because so many assumptions are unstated, and because there just isn't time to look for and assess every single one.

Take the following statement:

"I know the Comm Course works because my ability to communicate improved after I took it."

There are LOTS of assertions in here, and this is just one simple, fairly unambiguous statement. Here are some things I might question:

Did your ability to communicate really improve? How do you know? How do you define that? How did you measure it?

If it really did, how can you tell that it was as a result of the Comm Course and not the result of some other factor or combination of factors?

Now, Scientology is, of course, chock full of assertions that claim to be backed up with scientific data - proven beyond any doubt. Just a few examples off the top of my head:

The only reason a person ever leaves a group is because of overts against that group.
The only reason a person ever criticizes Scientology is because of suppressiveness.
The only reason a person fails to make case gain is because of overts.

And all of these are proven - PROVEN - *PROVEN!* - by, well, reams and reams of unassailable research.

And look how these assertions mess with your internal filters.

You might have a filter that says, "Well, I can think of reasons why someone might leave a group other than overts." And Scientology says, "But that's not the REAL reason. It's a fake reason, a cover story. Scientology uncovers the REAL reasons behind the fake reasons. We have hard data to PROVE it." And Scientology further says, "That's just your case talking. That's the devil leading you astray. If you listen to that, you're a goner."

And so, if you ever started to wonder whether Scientology was really a group that you still supported wholeheartedly, that really reflected your values, this little filter-jammer has just put a big roadblock on the pathway in your brain that leads to "let me explore this question of whether I belong in this group anymore" - which, make no mistake, can be a pretty scary question for any individual in any group, let alone one that's threatened you with being pummelled with your own history of wrongdoing for simply re-evaluating your support of a group. Asking yourself, "Do I still want to go to my book club?" involves asking yourself questions about commitment, priorities, loyalties - re-evaluating and re-examining yourself. And that can be difficult, even if it's just a book club.

So Scientology drops a big roadblock on the "do I still want to be in this group?" pathway, and puts a big DETOUR sign on the roadblock, pointing you to a path that you wouldn't even have in your brain without Scientology - and that Detour is down the "what bad things have I done to my org, to Ron, to my friends and my family and the only hope the world has?" path.

Who the hell wants to go there?

I think we have these "shoulds" in our brains that short-circuit a lot of paths we might do well to follow: shoulds like "I should be strong enough to always look at my own past without flinching." Or like "I should have known better (... I should have known then what I know now)." And of course, Scientology piles on loads more shoulds in the various codes and creeds. "I should never desire admiration." "I should never desert a comrade in need." "I should never fear to hurt another in a just cause."

I can make strong arguments against those Scientology-based shoulds, but I'd like to talk about the non-Scientology-based shoulds, too.

Here are some shoulds that might be lurking in your brain:

"I should be strong enough to stand up to the group, my friends, my family, anyone and everyone, when I don't agree with something.""I shouldn't worry (or be afraid of) being kicked out of the group."

Are these things you think?

If so, ask yourself - are they true?

I mean, maybe in an ideal world, we would all be completely clear on what we think about everything all the time and we would all be perfectly comfortable saying so in the face of any opposition because there would after all be no repercussions.

That's not the world we're living in.

Humans are social creatures, and we need each other, and saying you see things differently from everyone around you is RISKY. It's not cowardly to be afraid of that; it's PART OF WHO WE ARE.

One of the most fascinating studies to me in all of psychology is the Asch study:
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/social/asch_conformity.html

In this study, the experimenter brought the subject into a room with a handful of other people who were all pretending to also be subjects. They were all shown a set of lines and asked to select the two that matched in length. Then they went around the room and each person stated his or her answer.

The experiment was set up so that all the actors went first, and they all gave the wrong answer.

By the time they got to the last person, the actual subject, that person usually went along with the group and gave the wrong answer, too. (Over 75% of the subjects conformed to the group on at least one trial.)

This is in a small group of a bunch of strangers over something you don't have any big emotional reaction to - just a set of lines.

Imagine how much stronger the desire is to go along with the group when the group are your dear friends (mostly), fellow volunteers in the fight to save the world before it destroys itself, your family, your confidents (if you've co-audited or done ethics actions with any of them) - and you're just beginning to think about voicing doubts about the group. Itself. The people you're talking to.

That's not just scary. That's paralyzing.

There's real danger there, and to decide what to do in the face of that real danger, you need to be able to think clearly about it. But Scientology teachings themselves get in the way of you being able to do that - by insisting that the group is the most ethical on the planet and would never hurt you (although to be sure some of its ways of "helping" you can be extremely painful and harmful to you); by shaming you and misdirecting you to focus on your own misdeeds if you consider diverging from the group; by subtle threats of retaliation ("we will never betray your faith in us SO LONG AS YOU ARE ONE OF US"); by insisting you commit to everything NOW, robbing you of time to consider before you "agreed"; and probably in many other ways as well. You needed to be able to calmly assess what you stood to lose if you said what you thought, but Scientology's false teachings multiplied the normal human fear of going against the group to make it impossible for you to think about it clearly at the time.

Fortunately, there was an unconcious part of your brain, working underneath the part that was in denial, that understood the stakes and kept you from risking the destruction of every aspect of your life back then, back before circumstances changed and you could afford to take that chance. That other part of your brain rescued you from that danger. That, my dear, was SMART.

I think the world would be a better place, for groups and for individuals, if everyone felt safe to say what they really thought. The thing is, it ISN'T always safe. When you were in Scientology, it wasn't safe. And the unconcious part of you knew that. It protected you from doing something you weren't yet in a position to do. Had you spoken out at the time, what would you have lost? Your family? Your job? Your ability to keep yourself together? Larry Wollersheim suffered ostracization from Scientology. It destroyed his business and broke his mind.

The part of you that kept you from letting your disagreement destroy your life knew what was at risk, even if you couldn't conciously admit it at the time. That was very, very smart.

And since that genuine, very real risk was combined with the detour in your brain that shoves you in the "what have I done wrong, that I want to protect this wonderful wonderful group from awful horrible evil me?" direction ... well, I don't wonder why you hesitated to voice your concerns, or even think them.

Looking for the source of your dissatisfaction within your own misdeeds, instead of with the group itself, is what you had LEARNED.

From what seemed like a reliable source.

And those ways of thinking quickly become habits, routine ways of thinking like, oh, routine ways of driving - you start going down the road, and it doesn't matter whether you're paying attention or not, you know the way so well you have to concentrate really hard to NOT go the way you always go. Those detours and directions Scientology introduced into the pathways of your brain became comfortable, known routes, and so it's easy and familiar to go down the route of "what bad thing did I do to cause this? what word did I go past? what was my withhold?" It takes a huge amount of effort - and especially awareness - to even see the path as simply the old familiar path, and to remember you meant to go a different way this time.

And all that's happening now is you're learning better information. There should be no shame (in my opinion) in coming to see things differently. I hear a reporter once asked Gandhi about having reversed his position on something, and he simply said, "I know better now."

You mused about how long it would take for the unindoc to finish and wondered if it would ever be over. I suspect you'll someday find that you don't feel it happening anymore with Scientology stuff, but that a similar thing will go on for the rest of your life with OTHER ideas - which is maybe what you were saying in your post. And that, to me, is just the glorious and delightful (and sometimes scary and infuriating) rocess of doing what we do - learning. Which often involves unlearning.

But one of the reasons I wanted to write this is because I think Scientology teaches you to look for defects in yourself, and to believe that you're fully, 100% responsible for everything bad that happens to you. And I think American society encourages us to beat ourselves up for past mistakes, too. If you got deceived, it as because you were just plain STUPID.

Well, I'm here to tell you different, to tell you what I tell anyone who asks me "How can people be so stupid as to believe in Scientology?" - and it's this:

Even smart people can be lied to.

Scientology lied to you to exploit you. The organization lied to you to get your money, your time, your effort, your dedication and your enthusiasm and all that is best in you.

And I'm here to tell you:

it wasn't your fault.

And I'm also here to tell you:

You can have it all back. It doesn't belong to them anymore. You don't have to atone, you don't have to make amends, you don't have to beat yourself up inside before you have a right to have those things back.

They're all yours, right now. The wonderful, beautiful, SMART, loving, caring person that you are deserves all that is best in you, to do whatever YOU want to do with it.

I hope you'll use it to take really, really good care of yourself - like by gardening.

I am outraged and heartbroken by the callous way Scientology uses the enormous punishment of banishment, exclusion, from the group, to manipulate its members. Ostracization, rejection, is an ENORMOUSLY powerful tool, and all you have to do is have your stats dip into Liability for you to AUTOMATICALLY BE EXCLUDED FROM THE GROUP and have to PETITION TO REJOIN. I find that galling.

And I want you to know, my dear Cerri, what you probably already know, but I will say it here, publicly, because it's important:

There is a home for you here, in my heart, that will always be a home for you. Here, you are cherished, you are admired, you are liked - you are valued for who you are and what you are when you don't even try, then you forget about trying.

You are my friend, no matter what.

I know you will screw up someday. You will still be my friend.

I know you will do things, say things, think things, that go completely against what I believe and value. You will still be my friend.

One day, you might do something I can't comprehend, something I will find despicable. I hope not; I don't expect it of you; but it might happen.

You will still be my friend, because I love you.

And this is a lesson I hope you will learn again and again, perfectly and well and truly each time, from all the many, many people who love you:

The irrevocable, unconditional, unfailing truth of love.

Kristi

 

[Free to shine]

OMG, that is brilliant. Thanks Emma - and thanks Kritsi!

 

[Kathy (ImOut)]

Finally took the time to listen to Marc's interview. Amazing, truly amazing. Things we didn't know, but suspected.

Great job, Marc. Great interview by Dawn. She really understands how Scn works by the way she uses the language.

 

[Pascal]

DM the SP

Great evidence that DM is a madman. I dunno about you guys but I smell his demise quite soon. I always loved seeing him fail and get what's coming along the track.

 

[Grasshopper]

Emma - thanks for this quote. I find it very true. Even if I "wasted" about 15 years of my life on Scn, I feel no regret. It happened and I think it had a reason. I can look at it both ways: I can see it as time wasted, sufferings, shame etc. I can also see it as a learning lesson, a way of becoming stronger, more emphatic, more tolerant, understanding. I got to know myself better. It very much depends on the individual's mindset. Now that I get to talk with other people who left, I meet various views: one hates the whole thing, would like to get it off the face of earth. Others have their "early times" memories and keep some part of the tech, but otherwise have no bad feelings. Another person left because he felt he could not get anything done anymore. And now he produces in the "wog world", gets paid for it and enjoys life. Others cannot face their past yet. There are so many ways of "processing" this stuff in our minds and I think everyone just has to get through it one way or another. If you are smart, you get things out of it that makes you a better person.
For me it is a long process. Something happens, memories come and I change a bit. I found this board, found some friends, and found some more memoires that come up and I kind of accept them.

...I'm just looking out of the window of my terrace, seeing the trees, the freshly cut grass (beautiful smell), listening to the birds talking, and I am happy.

 

[Emma]

Full transcript of the interview is available for download.

http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/files/1256449_adwgy/cHeadleyInterview_25Apr2008__064923.pdf

 

[Lulu Belle]

Here's a PDF of the whole transcript you can download.

http://forums.enturbulation.org/42-...nly/transcipt-marc-headley-interview-11252/2/

 

[lionheart]

Unlike what a few people have said on here, I wasn't surprised by anything Marc said. I thought every ex-scn knew what scn was really like! :confused2:

Like Grasshopper, I don't regret my involvement in the cult at all. It was a harsh process, but I am grateful for the lessons Scn gave me.

Marc makes a good point for those who don't understand why people don't take out legal action against the CofS. That should be useful for anons and the media who might doubt the extent of the abuse.

 

[Grasshopper]

Hello Lionheart! I'm only a Grasshopper but I might also have a lionheart..

I don't thing all exes know what was going on. For example I was there when the musical chair incident happened (not in the room but on the base) but only heard a few things in the context that "it was fun" and "now he could see who is with him" but did not know the whole story. I have not seen him beating up people, just saw pushing some of them from a distance. But I was on the base. I spoke with an ex, who was also there, but could not believe DM beat up anybody. Everything is very internal and hush-hush and if anything spread around as gossip, it was mainly about staff members, how bad they were, X could not go in session as he had sex with his wife (it did happen) and the person had to confess that he had oral sex at night and was not sessionable for his Sec Check. I think it was even read out at muster.

So I guess DM went more public (per what Marc said, when he beat him), DM really lost control, could not hold it back.

So it is no surprise but it still is if you know what I mean. Also, when I was there and I saw an outness, I explained how it was right, so I might not even have noticed the things there were right in front of my nose...:confused2:

 

[gomorrhan]

Funny, that. I can't go in session if I HAVEN'T had sex. Distracted, you see.