Mark 'Marty' Rathbun: Scientology Beliefs

Northern Shewolf

Patron Meritorious
what is moderate Islam ,and which translation is used?
Islam is interpreted by individuals as they read the Kuran, usually under a teacher/Imam...
Unlike christian faiths (catholicism, anglicanism, orthodoxies etc....) there is no central voice, no real authority to assert what is the righteous path for Muslims....Anyone who has been studying in madrassa and has working knowledge of Kuran, Hadiths, & other important Islamic scholars' writings can assert his own interpretation....hence the difficulty....
Shewolf says a moderate is a person who has understood that Kuran is a medieval spiritual doctrine that contains incitements to behaviors acceptable in that long ago time (cutting body parts, stoning, beheadings, for unacceptable social behaviors), that throughout the centuries since and with better education, humans ought to have evolved beyond savagery as recently seen...
Just saying :yes:!
 

prosecco

Patron Meritorious
Thanks for the note.

There is a stunning parallel between the West's rather astonishing lack of recognition & aggressive action against against the global rise of Islamic terrorism and the complacency and appeasement theories that allowed Hitler's rise to power. His reign of worldwide terror resulted in the deaths of over 60 million innocent people and with the terror-sponsor state of Iran about to acquire nuclear weapons, this has equally grim implications if the world doesn't have some Winston Churchills to counteract the politically correct apathy of the world's Chamberlains.

It's hard to imagine that the US has devolved from its spectacular heights of bravery, focus and commitment to defeat Hitler to its present effete state of handwringing fear of even stating that the problem is ISLAMIC terrorism. I hope it is not true, but I fear that the only thing that will wake the world up to the civilization-ending threat of 21st century fanatical jihadists is one or more nuclear weapons being blown under major cities such as London, Paris or New York.

On Sunday, there was a fairly decent sized protest at Downing Street (um, London, not Paris) by Muslims protesting the Charlie Hebo cartoon. I think it was the one after the shooting where the prophet Mohammed was depicted with a sign saying, 'Je suis Charlie.' Although could be wrong about this.

This wasn't on the BBC news, but ironically, (or maybe not) was a story about rising anti Semitism in the UK.

On one hand, am angry that there wasn't media coverage of this, but think the best action was to ignore it as there was really nothing to be gained. It wasn't a protest about government actions, inaction or demanding something specific; it was a protest about a cartoon done by French citizens.

For some reason, feel that the public are being played. I can't quite put my finger on it, but snide comments from politicians about the rising immigration, how the system can't cope, inferences that Muslims are the reasons public houses are going out of business (because they don't drink...). It's as if it's a distraction....
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
Islam is interpreted by individuals as they read the Kuran, usually under a teacher/Imam...
Unlike christian faiths (catholicism, anglicanism, orthodoxies etc....) there is no central voice, no real authority to assert what is the righteous path for Muslims....Anyone who has been studying in madrassa and has working knowledge of Kuran, Hadiths, & other important Islamic scholars' writings can assert his own interpretation....hence the difficulty....
Shewolf says a moderate is a person who has understood that Kuran is a medieval spiritual doctrine that contains incitements to behaviors acceptable in that long ago time (cutting body parts, stoning, beheadings, for unacceptable social behaviors), that throughout the centuries since and with better education, humans ought to have evolved beyond savagery as recently seen...
Just saying :yes:!

In the Sunni tradition this is true, but the Shia have the Ayatolla.

I agree with your definition of a moderate but I am always puzzled by how anyone can have a book written by a perfect being and not believe all of it is worthy of their attention.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
In the Sunni tradition this is true, but the Shia have the Ayatolla.

I agree with your definition of a moderate but I am always puzzled by how anyone can have a book written by a perfect being and not believe all of it is worthy of their attention.

They believe it was inspired by the perfect being, but written by humans, who may have got some things wrong when trying to write down their [STRIKE]drunken imaginings[/STRIKE] divine revelations the next morning.

Exactly what those wrong things are is a matter of intense debate. :eyeroll:

And even the moderates can't explain why the perfect being didn't just write that shit down in stone hisveryownself instead of fucking around with smelly bearded guys who just got spit up by a fish. :unsure:

Perhaps the pen broke after the 10th commandment? :confused2:
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Shewolf says a moderate is a person who has understood that Kuran is a medieval spiritual doctrine that contains incitements to behaviors acceptable in that long ago time (cutting body parts, stoning, beheadings, for unacceptable social behaviors), that throughout the centuries since and with better education, humans ought to have evolved beyond savagery as recently seen...
Just saying :yes:!

Lotus thought is almost the same :biggrin:

Also, in the middle age, living in the desert, one would have to protect his wive from the ''wild hoards of ruthless rapists homo erectus sex deprived for months'' :unsure:

But we now live in the 21st century, living in cities, in a time women are to be respected and are given their rights as the human being they are.

It takes an educated critical mind to

1) read the scriptures
2) makes one' own mind (interpretation)
3) translate it into ''here and now'' while retaining the basic message and leaving the less important things aside.

We did the same with the bible old testament cruelty and violence. God is almost a despote. :unsure:

Genesis

Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8

"I will destroy ... both man and beast."
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4



====== allegories!

When human beings, take act on harmony, peacefull living and evolution, instead of sticking to old fixed ideas of a guru dictator and pseudo sacred sciptures (including $camology)
- life will be better...I guess :confused2:

The other day I watch a documentary about Amishs

They wont call 911 if there is a medical emergency - because the telephone is not prescribed in their way of living..so..people die for lack of critical mind and fix ideas.
:unsure:
 
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Northern Shewolf

Patron Meritorious
In the Sunni tradition this is true, but the Shia have the Ayatolla.

I agree with your definition of a moderate but I am always puzzled by how anyone can have a book written by a perfect being and not believe all of it is worthy of their attention.
Shewolf knows both Shiites and Sunnis and can tell you that Ayatollah or not, the lines of Shiism are not dictated by Khameni alone....you have to look to the scholars of Qum for that...always consultations before any decision is made.
Agree with you the public is being played as newscast are made by people with vested interest...don't get the Shewolf started....
Non, no!
 

Northern Shewolf

Patron Meritorious
Missed something:....."books worthy of attention"..... Would that apply to the bible perhaps? That fount of knowledge that has you cut your hand if it offended thee....
I think with intelligent growth folks advance in humanity, and take a depth survey of the assises of their beliefs, this inevitably leads to an 'accomodation' with the text.
We need to pay attention to our own ignorance.
Just saying :yes:.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Missed something:....."books worthy of attention"..... Would that apply to the bible perhaps? That fount of knowledge that has you cut your hand if it offended thee....
I think with intelligent growth folks advance in humanity, and take a depth survey of the assises of their beliefs, this inevitably leads to an 'accomodation' with the text.
We need to pay attention to our own ignorance.
Just saying :yes:.

Try " " The Five Gospels." My dad was involved in
its production.
 
Thanks!!!
I read this a long time ago - when I was a kid - I remember that at one time I had the opinion that the 'age of reason' and even the renaissance was somehow against faith - now I'm older with a different outlook I will read it again and see what I think now - it's definitely a classic and very influential book - thanks for posting the link - I tried listening to the audio book but every one I find that's posted online free has a robot like voice and I can't stand listening to it - there's no emotion or anything and it puts me to sleep LOL - reading it is a lot better though I'd listen to an audio book if it had a real person reading it -

Anyway.....reason is a good thing - I'm not atheist but I am changing my outlook and I think critical thinking is important and faith doesn't have to mean you check your brain in at the door - but seeing how ridiculous the so-called scripture of CO$ or the Mormons has caused me to look closer at the things I've believed that sound almost as ridiculous. My current thinking is this - I don't see why it's even necessary to believe the stuff that's not really possible - I don't think that's the important part - I used to think that dogma and articles of faith were important - I'm not so sure anymore. It never was what I focused on - that said though I did believe and I think it made me kind of gullible - I once thought I witnessed a miracle and I believed it was real and I later learned that it was a trick to make money. This was in what was once part of a canonical church - they were soon defrocked and expelled but none the less - they tricked a lot of people I was just shocked and it made me really feel like a fool. I've changed a lot over the last few years - especially since being away from my own faith community. I know people are different but I am kind of curious - do many of the ex-Scientologists end up atheist or do they find another faith - I know there are a few that remain independent Scientologists and I really do understand that now ....I didn't at first but in my own way I think I may have done something similar in my own way - I guess that's why I ask - .... after an experience like what so many ex's have gone through I wonder what is most common? Do they tend to drift toward other more traditional faiths, become atheists or what?
 
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ThetanExterior

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks!!!
I read this a long time ago - when I was a kid - I remember that at one time I had the opinion that the 'age of reason' and even the renaissance was somehow against faith - now I'm older with a different outlook I will read it again and see what I think now - it's definitely a classic and very influential book - thanks for posting the link - I tried listening to the audio book but every one I find that's posted online free has a robot like voice and I can't stand listening to it - there's no emotion or anything and it puts me to sleep LOL - reading it is a lot better though I'd listen to an audio book if it had a real person reading it -

Anyway.....reason is a good thing - I'm not atheist but I am changing my outlook and I think critical thinking is important and faith doesn't have to mean you check your brain in at the door - but seeing how ridiculous the so-called scripture of CO$ or the Mormons has caused me to look closer at the things I've believed that sound almost as ridiculous. My current thinking is this - I don't see why it's even necessary to believe the stuff that's not really possible - I don't think that's the important part - I used to think that dogma and articles of faith were important - I'm not so sure anymore. It never was what I focused on - that said though I did believe and I think it made me kind of gullible - I once thought I witnessed a miracle and I believed it was real and I later learned that it was a trick to make money. This was in what was once part of a canonical church - they were soon defrocked and expelled but none the less - they tricked a lot of people I was just shocked and it made me really feel like a fool. I've changed a lot over the last few years - especially since being away from my own faith community. I know people are different but I am kind of curious - do many of the ex-Scientologists end up atheist or do they find another faith - I know there are a few that remain independent Scientologists and I really do understand that now ....I didn't at first but in my own way I think I may have done something similar in my own way - I guess that's why I ask - .... after an experience like what so many ex's have gone through I wonder what is most common? Do they tend to drift toward other more traditional faiths, become atheists or what?

I would think that most people who were in Scientology knew it wasn't really a religion.

We were there to use "the tech" to save the planet.

Therefore, after leaving, I would assume they are no more or less religious than they were when they first joined.

Some will be religious, some won't. Just the same as people who were never involved with Scientology.
 

In present time

Gold Meritorious Patron
I fully respect Marty's "rising above" Indie Scientology and am glad to see that after fanatically defending Hubbard and his tech, he finally figured out it was a destructive hoax.

But, his spin that it was a "failed experiment" is not a good analogy. That would be like someone who was arrested and imprisoned for armed bank robbery trying to simply explain it "was a failed bank transaction where i mistakenly overdrafted my account and tried to withdrawal funds that weren't reflected on my account balance".

Hahaha, I am so totally in love with you Helluva;)
 

Northern Shewolf

Patron Meritorious
What is missing is their final 'cognition': it all was a huge fraud, a killing grift, a destructful kult!

Shewolf, the never-in wog, guesses that admitting this must be the last step out of the mind-set....
Probably because it is the very final realization that you've been royally had :nervous:.....Not good for a fragile ego this, so that's why exes must take their time to recover and take stock of themselves.
non?:unsure:
 

imSPecial

Patron with Honors
What is missing is their final 'cognition': it all was a huge fraud, a killing grift, a destructful kult!

Shewolf, the never-in wog, guesses that admitting this must be the last step out of the mind-set....
Probably because it is the very final realization that you've been royally had :nervous:.....Not good for a fragile ego this, so that's why exes must take their time to recover and take stock of themselves.
non?:unsure:


hi shewolf,

maybe, but i think that admission actually comes before the leaving.

but i think there is more. personal time, watching a football game, dinner with someone you love, getting toothache taken care of, a day of hard work for your familys care, making friends...that makes the recovery.

imo, the exes that come out, raging like a bull, restating the philosophy and knowing theyve got it all figured out havent recovered yet.

theres definitely some humble pie that needs to be eaten.
 

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
I agree with your definition of a moderate but I am always puzzled by how anyone can have a book written by a perfect being and not believe all of it is worthy of their attention.

moderate_muslim.gif
 

Gib

Crusader
Thanks!!!
I read this a long time ago - when I was a kid - I remember that at one time I had the opinion that the 'age of reason' and even the renaissance was somehow against faith - now I'm older with a different outlook I will read it again and see what I think now - it's definitely a classic and very influential book - thanks for posting the link - I tried listening to the audio book but every one I find that's posted online free has a robot like voice and I can't stand listening to it - there's no emotion or anything and it puts me to sleep LOL - reading it is a lot better though I'd listen to an audio book if it had a real person reading it -

Anyway.....reason is a good thing - I'm not atheist but I am changing my outlook and I think critical thinking is important and faith doesn't have to mean you check your brain in at the door - but seeing how ridiculous the so-called scripture of CO$ or the Mormons has caused me to look closer at the things I've believed that sound almost as ridiculous. My current thinking is this - I don't see why it's even necessary to believe the stuff that's not really possible - I don't think that's the important part - I used to think that dogma and articles of faith were important - I'm not so sure anymore. It never was what I focused on - that said though I did believe and I think it made me kind of gullible - I once thought I witnessed a miracle and I believed it was real and I later learned that it was a trick to make money. This was in what was once part of a canonical church - they were soon defrocked and expelled but none the less - they tricked a lot of people I was just shocked and it made me really feel like a fool. I've changed a lot over the last few years - especially since being away from my own faith community. I know people are different but I am kind of curious - do many of the ex-Scientologists end up atheist or do they find another faith - I know there are a few that remain independent Scientologists and I really do understand that now ....I didn't at first but in my own way I think I may have done something similar in my own way - I guess that's why I ask - .... after an experience like what so many ex's have gone through I wonder what is most common? Do they tend to drift toward other more traditional faiths, become atheists or what?

I never read it as a kid, in fact I grew up having no religious party or political party. I just kind of grew up dumb and stupid to all this stuff.

I'm in my 50's and now reading it, I find it quite fascinating. I got invloved in Dianetics and Scientology only because I thought I could become "clear" and "OT". I read all of hubbards books and lectures before I got a lot of auditing.

Read my byline links.

I think this is a good read as well:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20203/20203-h/20203-h.htm

I read a chapter a day while having my coffee in the morning just a year ago.

This sentence from the intro is what I fell for in reading Hubbard, althought I didn't know at the time:

"WE Americans devour eagerly any piece of writing that purports to tell us the secret of success in life;"

And it is still true to this day! LOL
 
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