Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental health

namaste

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Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

Oh, for fuck sake, Marty -- produce a better result or shut the fuck up.
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

.
.

Did I read that correctly? The tech was bad, Hubbard was bad, the class 12s were bad, the interactions between them caused more badness and of course DM was bad.
But Marty wasn't bad.
Is that it?

no,

I think marty is saying he was bad as well.

Do you want to put him on the cans? :laugh:
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

can it be surveyed ?????

:confused2:
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

But, alas Miscavige’s and the Class XII heirarchy’s killing of Lisa McPherson ended that program.

So Marty was uninvolved with this? I see it now. As trainer of ClassXII's he was shouting for them to get her to a hospital and he was over ruled? Is that how it went down in the shifting memory?
 

BunnySkull

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Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

So Marty was uninvolved with this? I see it now. As trainer of ClassXII's he was shouting for them to get her to a hospital and he was over ruled? Is that how it went down in the shifting memory?

Well, in fairness, Marty has always claimed he had nothing to do with Lisa M. case until she had already died and he was suddenly pulled into the handle "the flap" and get the cover up going.

I believe Marty was on the outs with DM and stuck in some lowly position at Flag (maybe it was doing comm training with Class XII). Only after the the McPherson situation turned into a Hill 10 was DM on the phone asking why Marty wasn't on top of it.

The details above I remember from his Truth Rundown interview at the SP times.
 

Mookster

Patron
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

Watching Marty figure it out bit by bit is positively fascinating. I just want to give him a big hug. It reminds me of my departure from Catholicism. Well sort of, minus the violence and espionage anyway. I was born a bit late for the crusading and whatnot.
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

Watching Marty figure it out bit by bit is positively fascinating. I just want to give him a big hug. It reminds me of my departure from Catholicism. Well sort of, minus the violence and espionage anyway. I was born a bit late for the crusading and whatnot.

maybe marty figured it out long ago, and is just doing a little bit at a time. :confused2:

as there is no shot "clear", laugher

corollary, there is no one shot "clear" from scientology.

We all have our steps out, one book, or another book, or another person who left, or some weirdness, or something

got us out.

Marty is one blog, there are others,

who is too know which blog or thing or statement gets anyone out,

but the more the merrier, and especially ex's.
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

Well, in fairness, Marty has always claimed he had nothing to do with Lisa M. case until she had already died and he was suddenly pulled into the handle "the flap" and get the cover up going.

I believe Marty was on the outs with DM and stuck in some lowly position at Flag (maybe it was doing comm training with Class XII). Only after the the McPherson situation turned into a Hill 10 was DM on the phone asking why Marty wasn't on top of it.

The details above I remember from his Truth Rundown interview at the SP times.

Perhaps.
Perhaps I am being unfair.

Despite all his change of faith, his personality has remained the same and it isn't one to not have info and intel and boast about it. He knows it all. In and out of the cult, that is his thing. Yet on this one thing he knew nothing.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

Dark Helmet Cognition: realizes he is surrounded by assholes
:thankyou:

This concept is a keeper!

This is indeed pretty much what I get out of this interesting post by Rathbun. What Hubbard called 'squirreling' is necessary, Rathbun tells us; and always was. Hubbard himself squirreled continuously, constantly innovating because all the 'standard tech' that was ever reached was only ever said to be adequate. It never really was. At the next level down from Hubbard himself, Rathbun reveals that the mighty and lofty Class XII Auditors of Flag, trained and approved by Source himself, were in fact a bunch of incredible wackos whom the real world would never have trusted to hand out orders of fries. From within the twisted frame of Scientology, moreover, they were all squirrels. Rathbun gives a telling detail: it was the OT doctrine of body thetans that kept these Class XII squirrels from straightening out, by letting them blow off any criticisms by just blowing off a BT. This shows very clearly how inherent squirreling is in Scientology, and how the subject itself is not just accidentally disorganized, but strongly designed to maintain its own incoherence. The Law of Commotion, indeed.

Rathbun agrees with the incensed Indies that GAT was a re-writing of Hubbard's tech; what Rathbun also says is that Hubbard's tech desperately needed re-writing. I don't see him as saying that GAT succeeded in making a good form of Scientology. Rathbun also describes the Golden Age of Knowledge as Miscavige's flip-flop response to charges of squirreling: if the flock wants all of Hubbard's jumble, then let's give them all of Hubbard's jumble, until they beg for mercy.

This particular post by Rathbun is about the specific issue of explaining the succession of revisions to "Standard Tech", by pointing out that Hubbard's collected works are sacrosanct in their entirety and yet hopelessly incoherent. It isn't fair to demand that Rathbun always say everything at once, in everything he posts. This post should not have to be mainly about saying how all of Scientology is fundamentally bad, so I don't think it's fair to complain that this particular post is a little soft and ambiguous about whether or not Scientology could in principle be reformed into something good. In fact, though, I think this post is pretty clear that there is no real Golden Age revision to be made; this statement simply comes near the end, where Rathbun says that a revision which really tightened Scientology up properly would only be a leaner and meaner form of thought control.
 
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Veda

Sponsor
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

Have to share this from Espiando at the Bunker - if only for the Space Balls reference (link is only to the article - can't pick up the comment link from this PC currently)


No, he hasn’t gone back to the dark side. This is a brilliantly-expressed Fuck You to both CoS and the Indies, especially Milestone Two. It’s sticking the knife in further after the backstab of the last essay. In fact, it’s a body blow to the Indies. The logic goes like this:
1) There are major things wrong with the technical practice of Scientology as Hubbard conceived it.
2) Indies do not recognize #1.
3) DM does recognize it, but his hands are tied in how far he can change it so that it might work.
4) GAT, GAK, and GAT 2: Electric Boogaloo were attempts to change things, but they all ran up against the brick wall of Hubbard’s insane declarations.
5) Even so, those changes were still too radical for the sheeple, who left in droves after each.
6) The things that are wrong with Scientology Tech are still there, even after all those changes.
7) Indies are too hung up on declaring things squirrel, when everything is squirrel anyway, even Hubbard, so why not try experimenting?
He has finally reached the Dark Helmet Cognition: he now realizes he is surrounded by assholes

Marty's decompressing. Sure, it's a little messy at times, but it's a good thing.
 

tetloj

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

The clip:

[video=youtube_share;sen8Tn8CBA4]http://youtu.be/sen8Tn8CBA4[/video]
 

DeeAnna

Patron Meritorious
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

"Something I find interesting is the number of people who twenty-seven years after Ron’s death seem to derive their own sense of worth by virtue of obsessively continuing to go after L. Ron Hubbard. More than a quarter century after Ron’s death it seems that an active cult thrives on the central religious practice of spitting on his grave.

Ironically, the members of the cult regularly, blatantly and shameless exhibit many of the behaviors they so indignantly protest in the cult Ron left behind. They engage in thought-stopping, censorship by censure, judgmentalism, stereotyping, ‘ends justify the mean’s,’ etc. You name the cult characteristic they accuse Ron of and they have it down in spades themselves. If someone gives Ron the slightest credit for ever having displayed any human tendency that individual is castigated, condemned and shunned violently. If a member of the anti Ron cult steadfastly pledges allegiance to, and demonstrates it consistently, condemning everything about Ron or the cult he left behind – or even anyone who credits Ron with any act that cannot be characterized as demonic -, why, that member is honored and can be seen to do no wrong. Hell, he could figuratively get away with murder.

The central, most unifying unwritten tenet of the anti Ron cult is that solely by virtue of condemning Ron they are somehow victims and have thus demonstrated honorable behavior. Notwithstanding that while the church of Scientology is renowned for over-aggressive dealings with critics, the most prominent members of the anti-Ron cult have never had a glove laid upon them by Scientology. Most cult members attempt to position themselves with those who have in fact been dogged by Scientology. However, they have also conveniently omitted from the hagiographies they have constructed for their heroes that most of the folks they emulate have sold out to Scientology for hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars. So, you can add hyporcrisy to the list of cult-like qualities of those obsessing with Ron. "


So, Marty doesn't think this anymore?
 

AngeloV

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

Based on Marty's 'progress', I propose a new Hubbard Law ala Hellovahoax:

Hubbard Law of Diminishing Returns: The further away from Scientology a person gets, the less scientology works.

(or does this one exist already? I forget...Calling HH....:biggrin:)
 

HelluvaHoax!

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Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

Based on Marty's 'progress', I propose a new Hubbard Law ala Hellovahoax:

Hubbard Law of Diminishing Returns: The further away from Scientology a person gets, the less scientology works.

(or does this one exist already? I forget...Calling HH....:biggrin:)


:hysterical::hysterical:

Very fascinating and provocative concept!

I love your Hubbard Law of Diminishing Returns.

And, I think you just inspired a corollary to it:

The Hubbard Law of Workable Tech: The more a being disagrees with reality, the more Scientology works.

The sublime paradox in that law is that it makes perfect sense to both a Scientologist and a Wog, but for completely opposite reasons.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

The job of recompiling/rewording Scientology tech into a (big) textbook, with the out-of-date stuff removed so all of it is current, which the cult can never fully do although they did it for some basic stuff with the Scientology Handbook in the early 90s, was done about 10-15 years ago by Clearbird, and has been online since then. See, for example, http://freezoneearth.org/clearbird/

I think he (Rolf) did a really excellent job of distilling the essentials of Scientology technology and presenting it in a comprehensible form. Although, having said that, I don't recommend anyone get into Scientology.

Paul
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

He knows it all. In and out of the cult, that is his thing. Yet on this one thing he knew nothing.

I have no idea how Scientology really ran itself while Rathbun was part of running it, but for what it's worth, I see this issue like this.

Operation Kill Lisa McPherson went on right next door to Rathbun, while he was still some kind of big shot in Scientology management, albeit maybe under some sort of cloud. So the only way Rathbun could have not known about everything that was happening, would be for Scientology management to have been a gaggle of uncoordinated idiots, flailing around madly without any kind of institutional intelligence.

Um, wait.

On second thought, Rathbun's story does seem plausible to me.
 

prosecco

Patron Meritorious
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

Perhaps.
Perhaps I am being unfair.

Despite all his change of faith, his personality has remained the same and it isn't one to not have info and intel and boast about it. He knows it all. In and out of the cult, that is his thing. Yet on this one thing he knew nothing.

I think you're right, it's his personality.

The know it all, isn't really specific to scientology, although there seems to be a higher proportion.

My daughter goes to school with this know it all kid. His parents wax lyrical of how gifted and talented he is, he brags about his reading level, his maths levels blah blah blah. But my quiet, reserved daughter was placed number 1 for the year in maths, English and Science. She just doesn't talk about it.

But to be fair, I honestly think that had Marty known about Lisa McPherson, he would have done something. He may have made some huge mistakes, but I believe that he didn't know anything until it was too late.
 

Student of Trinity

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Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

[M]y quiet, reserved daughter was placed number 1 for the year in maths, English and Science. She just doesn't talk about it.

Good for her that she's not being a jerk about it, but there's a horrible tendency for brilliant girls to keep so quiet that they get ignored in favor of loud-mouthed boys. At some point, brilliant boys do come along who are truly brilliant but have also had a lot of practice in looking brilliant, and that second talent puts them ahead. The brasher attitude of boys can also bring some actual intellectual benefits, as they jump in over their heads and then have to learn to swim, while brilliant girls who are playing it safer by keeping quiet don't get challenged as much, and so lose ground over time. A brilliant girl is a great thing, but a brilliant girl who is quieter than a less brilliant boy can be a tragedy in the making.

There's a lot to be said for changing social attitudes and behaviors in ways that make it easier for bright girls to speak up; but as a father of two girls myself, I think that girls are not a minority, but half of all children, and bright girls are, furthermore, bright. So it seems to me that the most effective tool for getting bright girls to realize their full potential right into professional adulthood, is probably to encourage the girls themselves to push a bit more. It's okay to accept that for many reasons it's harder for girls to speak up in a group, when boys are yammering. One can acknowledge this; one need not make girls feel guilty for not being every bit as loud as the boys. And there's no need to push girls into being jerks who think they're right all the time. There are lots of ways to state one's own point of view, and stand up for it firmly, without being obnoxious; and there are lots of ways to admit one is wrong and change one's mind about one thing, without abandoning all future right to express one's own ideas on other things.

One can at least let girls understand what the issues are here, encourage them to be as assertive as they can, and not let them go on believing that being quiet and modest is simply Being A Good Girl. I think being quiet and modest can at some point become a sort of co-dependent cop-out, or something, where brilliant women who ought to be pushing themselves really hard all their lives, and achieving great things, end up coasting along doing safe little things because they aren't scary; and the whole human race goes on fighting a hostile universe with one hand tied behind its back.
 

tetloj

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Mark 'Marty Rathbun: Scientology is unqualified to practice in field of mental he

It isn't fair to demand that Rathbun always say everything at once, in everything he posts. This post should not have to be mainly about saying how all of Scientology is fundamentally bad, so I don't think it's fair to complain that this particular post is a little soft and ambiguous about whether or not Scientology could in principle be reformed into something good. In fact, though, I think this post is pretty clear that there is no real Golden Age revision to be made; this statement simply comes near the end, where Rathbun says that a revision which really tightened Scientology up properly would only be a leaner and meaner form of thought control.

:thumbsup: Good point.
 
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