Mark 'Marty' Rathbun: The Scientology Sandbox

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
I believe there is a distinctive sort of "brilliance" involved here

[video=youtube;91wuk_mWEYQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91wuk_mWEYQ[/video]

"In their paper, "Construct Validity of Psychopathy in a Community Sample... Salekin, Trobst, and Krioukova write "Psychopathy as originally conceived by Cleckley (1941) is not limited to engagement in illegal activities, but rather encompasses such personality characteristics as manipulativeness, insincerity, egocentricity , and lack of guilt - characteristics clearly present in criminals but also in spouses, parents, bosses, attorneys and politicians, and CEOs, to name but a few. (bursten. 1973; Stewart, 1991)...As such. psychopathy may be characterized...as involving a tendency towards dominance and coldness. Wiggens (1995) in summarizing numerous previous findings..indicates such persons are prone to anger and irritation and are willing to exploit others. They are arrogant, manipulative, cynical, exhibitionistic, sensation-seeking, Machiavellian, vindictive and out for their own gain. With respect to their patterns of social exchange (Foa & Foa, 1974), they attribute love and status to themselves, seeing themselves as highly worthy and important, but prescribe neither love nor status to others, seeing them as unworthy and insignificant. " Page 89, Political Ponerology, footnote


Yeah; that pretty much sums it up.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Marty said:
The complexity, the breadth, and the duration of Hubbard’s alleged fraudulent scheme would be a virtual impossibility for any mere mortal to accomplish.

Good grief!! L Ron Hubbard's machination continue to fool millions of people to this day who believe it is accurate to describe Scientology as a religion . . .

[video=youtube_share;_T5HYavczyc]http://youtu.be/_T5HYavczyc[/video]​
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
But Hubbard was a sort of genius. He was not an Academic genius, certainly - he had no mind for math.

But he had an intuition for the levers of guilt and pain that motivate a lot of people, and he was a past master at pulling them. There's no shame in being conned by the dude, he was a genius as a con man. All the book learning in the world won't help you when your emotions betray you.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
But Hubbard was a sort of genius. He was not an Academic genius, certainly - he had no mind for math.

But he had an intuition for the levers of guilt and pain that motivate a lot of people, and he was a past master at pulling them. There's no shame in being conned by the dude, he was a genius as a con man. All the book learning in the world won't help you when your emotions betray you.


That was direct, simple and wise!

There is another notion I have had rumbling around in my head for a few years that I have never tried to articulate--but I think there is something to it that also explains (beyond emotion) why humans are so easy to dupe. It is my guess that there is a profound genetic blueprint, undercutting thought and emotion, that operates at the instinctive and reflexive level--and that is what compels people to seek certainty over chaos. Thus, when a con man lives up to his name ("con"fidence) he evidences that most alluring intoxicant--certainty. Hubbard was, if nothing else, a master of that game.

There may well be evolutionary value in members of any species quickly (i.e. involuntarily) responding to a group leader, who likely was identified by nothing more complicated than detecting the certitude in their vocal intonations, expressions and mannerisms. In most cases that probably was a good bet because someone yelling "The volcano is erupting, RUN!!!" probably was right.

But, that left a small but troubling percentile of social misfits who, at some point, learned to mimic certainty, and thus hoaxes, cons and other thieving criminal artifice was borne.

In a sense, Hubbard is no different than a professional burglar who (despite all the security precautions you have taken in safeguarding your home) is able to easily by-pass all the gates, motion detectors and alarms and get inside while you are away. Then he cracks your safe and takes your most valued treasure, because combinations and high-tech tumbler systems are a joke to a professional thief with the right crowbar, drill, torch or who simply has "the touch".



[video=youtube;qw_4HQMS-pk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_4HQMS-pk[/video]
 
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Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
I swear, it looks like LRH is sitting next to Bob Minton in this picture.

Heh...

I was driving down a rural route in backwoods Georgia a few months ago and saw a sign for

"THE MINTON CHAPEL"

I wouldn't have thought much of it besides a chuckle until 4 miles further down the two lane black top I saw a sign for

"THE HUBBARD CHAPEL"


go figure....

arnie lerma
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
The evidence that scientology and dianetics has always been a fraudulent bait and switch operation is overwhelmingly strong. :yes:

Co$ has since the beginning been selling the states of Clear and OT which they cannot deliver, certainly not in the way these states have been defined by Hubbard himself.

Marty's assertion "They insist that with conscious aforethought he created and operated dianetics and scientology as a fraudulent bait and switch operation..." simply is not true. :no:

Who is "they"? :unsure:

Anyone reading ESMB over a period of time would see that some do believe this and others do not.

In my case - yes, I say that scientology and dianetics HAVE always been a fraudulent bait and switch operation, but with conscious aforethought? While it surely looks like this at times one cannot always know the intention of another, and I don't claim to know Hubbard's intent throughout all the decades he operated this whole thing.

There have been some pretty incredible con men throughout history who successfully defrauded some very intelligent victims. Bernie Madoff being just one of many examples.

I'm pretty sure Hubbard created it initially as a con, and then around 1953 or 54 he began to believe. He sold himself on his own omnipotence. And then around 1969 or 70, he came to his senses and realized it was falling off purpose (for him) and started the solution to inflation (for him - certainly orgs never saw any increase in what they got to pay their staffs...) to get the fucking money flowing to him.

Or maybe just went BT delusional from chasing the hallucinations around in circles long enough.
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
Marty has a monster ego but he isn't stupid, and he certainly can play with words... I think he already has figured out that all of it is scam, what a conman and crook Hubbard was and what his motives were. This final affirmation to himself might have been shaped (admitted) little less than a year ago - while constantly and ever more rapidly losing "faith in source" over the last few years. Yet he cannot say this because when he chooses this approach, many of his we-trust-in-tech fans will bail. Also, he indeed wants people getting out of "Scientology Inc.", for rather humanitarian motives many of us share. He knows they who are heeding doubts may dare read his stuff but unlikely if he goes "it's a hoax, FIN".

On his ego... His self-esteem is overly distinctive. Also, he has a need to prove himself, to get admiration, and wants to be a leader, a guru... a "humanitarian" and "therapist", too, out of his bad conscience... He certainly wants to keep his followers, or some of them. Part of this is, he thinks they are (still) confused and need him to lead them into non-Scieno land, and only he can do that... D'Oh... He has that distinct authoritarian thinking on him which he got from Scientology, and which also fits his mindset.

He tries to get close to stating this assumption, "Scientology = Scam", and does that by ridiculing and condemning Hubbard so sharply. Yet I think he's even more critical of "tech" than he actually admits. The reason for him currently appearing so very undecided and on a "confused" zigzag course could be that he is now trying hard to find an angle that allows him to stay in touch with his followers. But that could get interesting at some point, since I think the conflict is inevitable... :biggrin: I don't think he can do this. Well, or anybody.

Actually, he might decide to retreat from the field of critisizing/evaluating/improving Scientology altogether, and to declare whatever he is making up, as "non Scientology" or really just very losely "inspirated" by Hubbard, and indeed do the step of stating: "I've decided, Hubbard was on to something when he made Dianetics, but, ya know, he drifted off course pretty soon because of his cranky needs etc ...". That might be his official explanation then. It is insofar plausible as the "regression therapy" part is the very last thing of Scientology "tech" a Freezoner might want to discard. However, developing his own work, also must be a difficult task, to say the least. He ought to have overreached himself massively with intending to re-invent psychotherapy; not unlike Hubbard did, and a hundred other gurus/crackpots. He might be on the way of recognizing this, now that he has constructed his own ultimatum... :p

He might, however, want to delay doing this for some time, because the more his followers are trusting him when he does "the" step, the more of them will hold on to him at this point. But that is also illusional, since he would have to work for this trust, it doesn't just pop into existence or culminate without reason. :melodramatic: However, his ego will drive him to welcome this excuse and make it a rationalization for not really moving on - rather than acknowledging the task as impossible.

Essentially, he's running in circles...

I tried to depict from a psychological angle why that might be.

Well, I'm reading this between the lines of several of his recent posts and this must not be accurate. :confused2: Sorry when it sounds trivial... And I could not nail it down either. Just sharing the opinion. Also, much of it has already been told. And I might not know of some of this, since I am not that long onto it, plus, I was and am no dedicated Freezone watcher, and analyzing Marty only in retroperspective by reading some of his older posts, versus the new ones.

I don't hate or despise Marty (if somebody happens to think that now)... Except for his stance in the Armstrong conflict... But ofcourse, for him this is complicated and dangerous too.

What has been stated about his dim job/fame perspectives, also is very true. I consider it unlucky that Marty doesn't get, or trust in this thought if he happened to have it (as I assume), that his very chance of becoming a hero with lots of dedicated followers and FANS allover the Ex-Scn scene, is to team up with Armstrong - and others. :yes:

The way out of the trap is to be found in Armstrong's direction, Marty...

:drama:

I think if people really want to figure out where hubbard was coming from they should try drinking and take a shit load of different drugs, then there may be some insightful cognitions as to what lense your looking through.
 

Gib

Crusader
I think if people really want to figure out where hubbard was coming from they should try drinking and take a shit load of different drugs, then there may be some insightful cognitions as to what lense your looking through.

very true, and also what books hubbard read. What books where on hubbards bookshelf or library?

We know for sure Hubbard used his Dean Wilbur book called "English Rhetoric" that Dean Wilbur used in his teachings while Hubbard was a student at George Washington University.

Here is the letter Hubbard wrote to his Dean Wilbur stating he will use Dean Wilbur"s book to write a book. This was in 1936. Two years before Hubbard claimed he wrote "excalibur" and 14 years before Dianetics.

One has to ask themselves, did hubbard use Dean Wilbur's book on Rhetoric throughout dianetics and scientology?

http://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/dear-dean-wilbur/

Hubbard says to Dean Wilbur:

"Do not allow this to upset you in any way. Put it down that I am a rebel, a nonconformist, anything. Some of these days I am going to set down these things in a book, and your rhetoric, very battered now, will be open on the desk beside me when I write it."

http://encyclopedia.gwu.edu/index.php?title=Wilbur,_William_Allen

"His lectures for freshmen were based on a text he wrote himself, "English Rhetoric." He elaborated his points with anecdotes of the sea. His students knew that he was descended from a line of whalers and clipper captains and built and sailed a series of boats at Mystic, Connecticut"

books written by Dean Wilbur:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Modes_of_Imagination_in_English_Rhetoric.html?id=nERyHQAACAAJ

http://www.amazon.co.uk/William-Allen-Wilbur/e/B00JSABDQS

What is Rhetoric:

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/11/14/classical-rhetoric-101-an-introduction/

"As many of you know, I read a lot of biographies on the lives of [STRIKE]great[/STRIKE] CON men from history. The part of a man’s life I enjoy learning about the most is their education. "

in hubbards case, I highlight in red. LOL

"What Is Rhetoric?

Rhetoric is simply the art of persuasion through effective speaking and writing."
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
very true, and also what books hubbard read. What books where on hubbards bookshelf or library?

One book that I'd be surprised if he didn't have on his shelf was "Psychic Self-Defense" by Dion Fortune, a fellow Crowley adherent from around the same time period. In it she talks about past life regression whereby one could go back to recover one's identity from former lives etc. A lot of what Elcon later claimed to have pioneered himself. She died 3 yrs. prior to Dianetics coming out.
Her books and others from that time period were like occult how to manuals and could be considered to have functioned as inadvertent fore runners to today's "OT levels".

http://www.amazon.com/Psychic-Self-...13429662&sr=1-1&keywords=psychic+self+defense
 

Gib

Crusader
One book that I'd be surprised if he didn't have on his shelf was "Psychic Self-Defense" by Dion Fortune, a fellow Crowley adherent from around the same time period. In it she talks about past life regression whereby one could go back to recover one's identity from former lives etc. A lot of what Elcon later claimed to have pioneered himself. She died 3 yrs. prior to Dianetics coming out.
Her books and others from that time period were like occult how to manuals and could be considered to have functioned as inadvertent fore runners to today's "OT levels".

http://www.amazon.com/Psychic-Self-...13429662&sr=1-1&keywords=psychic+self+defense

could be true, but we do not know for sure. It's conjecture.

I know for sure hubbard learned Rhetoric thru his Dean Wilbur.

I wish old timers who were around Hubbard and saw the books on his bookself, would disclose such titles of books.
 
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anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
If you take a low bar for the genius label, like Mensa's "top 2%", then okay: maybe Hubbard was in the top one or two percent of people, for salesmanship. He might have been in the top few percent
for prose writing, too. Hubbard had some talents that were well above average.

If by 'genius' you mean someone like Einstein or Mozart, then no way was L. Ron Hubbard a genius. Nothing he did stands out that far. If Rathbun doesn't realize this, then he hasn't yet made it as far out of the sandbox as he thinks he has.

He might have been in the top few percent for prose writing, too. Hubbard had some talents that were well above average

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
I appreciate and value your balance and fairness in all your responses, it is always helpful to me when
I am being particularly unreasonably one sided. Aka emotional kneejerk.

But i nearly fell off the bed laughing at my bold. There is no beauty, poetry or soul thoughtfulness in anything of his I have read, and life is way to short to waste any more precious time reading the rest to try and find any. He was indeed a very clever salesman and con.
If he was coming to age in2014 though, he would have been eaten alive.
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
very true, and also what books hubbard read. What books where on hubbards bookshelf or library?

Here you go Gib:

List of Books from Ron's Office FCDC LINK (note)

FO 2191 Intelligence Booklist ESMB LINK


The Book of Abra-Melen linked from THIS ESMB PAGE goto 1 tenth of 1 percent (note2)

"Father says again; never tell or much worse will happen. I nod. He commands me to rea. I have trouble; I keep trancing. Father has commanded; I read. "The Book Of The Law." "The sacred Magic Of Abra-Melin". "The Sex Magic Of The Ninth Degree Of The O.T.O.""

----


Some excerpts from books containing techniques Ron used to trance you

Ron the Hypnotist Thread LINK LINK LINK


Note: There were also books in a locked bottom drawer of his desk but the kid giving the tour would not open it for the visitor who compiled this list,

Note2: AFTER reading 1 tenth of 1 percent, THEN read this Why David MAYO became top tech person LINK
 
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programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Here you go Gib:

List of Books from Ron's Office FCDC LINK (note)

FO 2191 Intelligence Booklist ESMB LINK


The Book of Abra-Melen linked from THIS ESMB PAGE goto 1 tenth of 1 percent (note2)

"Father says again; never tell or much worse will happen. I nod. He commands me to rea. I have trouble; I keep trancing. Father has commanded; I read. "The Book Of The Law." "The sacred Magic Of Abra-Melin". "The Sex Magic Of The Ninth Degree Of The O.T.O.""

----


Some excerpts from books containing techniques Ron used to trance you

Ron the Hypnotist Thread LINK LINK LINK


Note: There were also books in a locked bottom drawer of his desk but the kid giving the tour would not open it for the visitor who compiled this list,

Note2: AFTER reading 1 tenth of 1 percent, THEN read this Why David MAYO became top tech person LINK


I am surprised that nothing by Machiavelli (e.g. "The Prince") appears on that list!
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Actually I've only ever read Hubbard in short excerpts. His plots never appealed to me. I never saw the gold in the so-called Golden Age of sci-fi. Lame ideas that were boring or dumb, for the most part, laced with quite a lot of 1930's attitudes that seem really stupid today.

But sentence-by-sentence, I do think Hubbard was a competent writer. He is (nearly?) always grammatical, and he pulls it off in a range of registers, from formal to colloquial. At least when he's at his best, he has a fair-to-middling ear for felicitous phrases.

Not many people can do that. So what I meant was that if you grabbed a hundred people at random off the street, Hubbard could probably write better prose than all but a few of them. I didn't mean that Hubbard was in the top few percent of professional writers. Heck no; he might well even be in the bottom few percent among them.

The Factors are IMO his greatest piece of writing. Some of he ideas were put forth
earlier by Crowley who took them from earlier texts

http://www.bonafidescientology.org/Append/01/page03.htm

Here is Crowleys idea.

http://www.corax.com/tarot/index.html?naples-arrangement
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
But Hubbard was a sort of genius. He was not an Academic genius, certainly - he had no mind for math.

But he had an intuition for the levers of guilt and pain that motivate a lot of people, and he was a past master at pulling them. There's no shame in being conned by the dude, he was a genius as a con man. All the book learning in the world won't help you when your emotions betray you.

And I think that the natural tendency is to assume genius = good.

Nah, not necessarily.... Hitler managed to take over an entire country and cause a world war and kill somewhere 13 million prisoners. I'm certainly not smart manipulative enough to do that, so I recognize the genius in it.

Some of my extended family invented groundbreaking and world changin medical procedures - they are widely regarded as geniuses and deserve it. Because they improved the world.

But knowledge and skills are neutral. It's what we do with it that is good or bad. I have no problem putting LRH on par with my family member, I just think he did bad things with hos abilities and my relatives chose otherwise.

Sadly, people like LRH end up better rewarded by the world in terms of money. I can tell you for a fact that LRH was getting much more that my relative that won a Nobel Prize in medicine.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Hubbard's re-write of Aleister Crowley has been used for over 60 years to awe vulnerable "raw meat" and lead them into the labyrinth of Scientology. Manipulation.

This re-write appears at the beginning of the book 'Scientology 8-8008', which features a long and impressive list of great thinkers, sans the name of Crowley. The prestigious names were placed there, not because Hubbard seriously studied their works, but because they gave credibility and gravitas to Hubbard. More manipulation.

'The Factors' ends with the pompous and incredibly insincere words, "Humbly tendered as a gift to Man by L. Ron Hubbard..." Yet more manipulation.


Hubbard's borrowings from Crowley have been examined in detail, publicly, for the better part of thirty years. For anyone curious, the below snippet of a post links to the rambling 'The Sole Source Myth' thread, which contains many links, including to other threads:

Patricia Waldygo's painting of the Kabbalistic Tree of life:

blocks_image_9_1.jpg


Scientology's "Four Conditions of Existence" can be found on the "Tree," and correspond with the "Tetragrammaton," the four key components of the "Tree."

The "Know to Mystery Scale," and other scales, also can be traced to the "Tree."

Crowley's 'Naples Arrangement' inspired Hubbard's 1952, 'The Factors'.

Crowley's insertion of the Yogic triad of "Bliss, Knowledge, Being" into the 'Naples Arrangement' corresponds with Hubbard's placement of "Affinity, Reality, Communication'" in 'The Factors'.

-snip-
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
But Hubbard was a sort of genius. He was not an Academic genius, certainly - he had no mind for math.

But he had an intuition for the levers of guilt and pain that motivate a lot of people, and he was a past master at pulling them. There's no shame in being conned by the dude, he was a genius as a con man. All the book learning in the world won't help you when your emotions betray you.

Sociopaths always prey upon the hopes and fears, faith and good will, and the guilt and shame, of their victims. These are considered to be weaknesses, by a sociopath. Manipulation is their key - Diabolical manipulation. Self gratification is their intent, and evil doings are their trade. It is the old joke - Why did the chicken cross the road? Why do sociopaths victimize people? Because they can . . . .

They envy what others have, and they are intent on destroying that for them, one way or another. That horrid fat tub of lard lrh did a very good job of that, didn't he - destroying good people, either in mind/body/soul/relationships/family and/or financially/success in real life. One freaking soul at a time . . . . He's still doing it, too, from the grave, through his main minion, dm - but through all the other followers too - the slaves, enslaving - for favor from the top dog. And all they are going to get, for all their hard work, and sacrifices - for a lifetime of service and belief, is dog shit on their heads - and abandonment - by the only thing they ever trusted. I am sure lrh is smiling in his grave - 'Good boy, davey, my little pet, heh heh heh, good boy'. Evil :clapping: :nazi:
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sorry SoT I disagree with you. Genius is, admittedly , an ill-defined term so comparing claims is going to be an even more futile endeavor. As it is down to opinion then we agree to disagree. Hubbard's "gift" may not be as nice as Mozart's or Einstein but that doesn't lessen it. Fischer was a chess genius and an utter prick along with it, doesn't lessen the genius.

Agreed. Let's define Hubbard's specialty as grand con games. In the sense of how many people he got and how long the con has lasted, the Co$ has to be one of the most successful cons in the history of mankind. He played unwary human beings the way Mozart played the clavier and violin.
 
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