Marty begins to crack....revealing the "True OT VIII"

[Smilla]

HH is a satirist and commentator par excellence. All he does is done in good spirit. There's no ill intention there. Bravo, HH!

 

[VaD]

Let's NOT cheapen Hitler

replaced (see below)

 

[Lurker5]

It makes me sad

Says who? This thread is not about Mary Jo, but I want to respond to this, 'cause it irked me.

Per what Mary Jo herself wrote in September last year, she had an incredible ethics record as could be shown by her ethics file. It's my opinion that anyone heavily involved with the CofS in the last decade who has an incredible ethics record, would not be someone who does in fact have a superb record of trying to help their fellow man......To me it would be more likely that they've been busy trying to help themselves and doing so at the expense of others.

How could someone who was still actively working and/or contributing within the ranks in the last decade, who *was* trying to help, not be getting into trouble left right and centre? IMO, it just wouldn't/couldn't be.

Rightly or wrongly I pretty well have an instant distrust of anyone recently departed from the CofS, who shows up on Marty's board and is now positioned as some kind of *hero*. I don't see that anyone who has been active in the CofS in recent times could be trusted at all until they give something from themselves which indicates that they *can* be trusted or until they at least give some understanding of where they are coming from.

To me, departure from the "CofM" followed by arrival to the Shack, is *nothing* to be admired.....the opposite, in fact. I'm dealing with newly "outs" all the time, and one for one we see the same phenomena. When I see nothing of that phenomena from those who Marty puts on a pedestal, there is nothing to indicate to me that they are "out", or not still pushing the same barrow they did while "in". I don't understand why any would afford them trust or respect until they demonstrate that they deserve it, let alone understand why any would afford it to them *because* they have turned up at Marty's place and are doing their thing.

It makes me sad that some of you have to live like this. Sigh. But it is the only way for one who is active to protect self and loved ones. Anons even in masks are super careful to guard their identities. Those who are not wearing masks, who are 'out' and in the public eye, standing up, speaking, writing, getting others out, are a target for the very black and heavy hand of co$, dm, osa.

You have to guard your own house (so to speak) from intruders and evil doers.

Bravo to those of you fighting this fight on the front lines.
Truly we are all indebted to you.

May it be over soon . . . .

 

[Lurker5]

Criminy, Dude

The Modern Science of Mental Shackology​

Reviewed by L. Ron Hoaxard.

"He was worse than dead. His brain is gone!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJQwHwP0ojI

Criminy, dude, you are funny

 

[VaD]

Let's NOT cheapen Hitler

I missed this post earlier, and didn't see it till just now when I saw that HH had quoted it.



In reference to what I've bolded, I think that it would more correct to say that you're obviously drawing a line against criticism that *you* don't believe is well based. As I said in an earlier post, that line seems to be in different places for different people.


To me, this kinda seems like a "cheap shot" at HH, coz it's implying or insinuating that he makes them, when he doesn't, IMO anyway.

I think this all comes down to our evaluation of the situation. I know that for me, in some ways I find Marty et al more dangerous and perturbing than DM.

When I think of DM, I think great, he's lost the plot, demonstrating what Scientology really is, and he won't/can't last long. I hold onto the thought/belief/hope that soon (just like Hitler), DM will go down, and I pray to God for that day to come soon.

When I think of Marty though, I get the heebie geebies. To his flock, he's not demonstrating what Scientology is, but he's using Scientology mechanisms to keep people enslaved and to forward that which will *continue* to enslave, and he's also getting a pat on the back for doing so.

There was a time in Hitler's earlier days and in LRH's earlier days, when they seemed like the *good guys*, but they weren't back then......they were gathering their flock and there were plans or indications of things to come........some recognised it, but not enough was done by people to stop it.

What Hitler was up to looked all rosy at one point......He gave hope and made promises of what he could do for Germany, and he had the majority of Germans behind him. From many reports, what LRH was up to in the early days looked all rosy too.

As a former Scientologist, after seeing it before but being talked out of what I saw and/or negating it, for *too* long, I won't negate it again. I perceive and recognise Marty using various Scn mechanisms, to pull the wool over people's eyes, just like I saw when the same was in play by Senior Scn Execs in the '90's.

DM makes Scn look bad. He shows it for what it is. Marty is attempting and succeeding somewhat at making it look rosy, when it is not! (again, I'm not referring to the "technical aspect"). Any and all shots at that are *ok*, in my books (not that I'd call them cheap ones).

Clearly we don't share the same view on where Marty is at. Some of us would argue that the criticism of Marty et al *is* in fact well based, so I don't believe that the issue is about drawing the line at criticism that isn't well based, at all - It's more about our differing evaluation of Marty and the situation.

Carmel,
Let's not cheapen Hitler by comparing him to "DM" or "Marty".
While mechanisms of mind used here and there are the same, the results are NOT COMPARABLE BY SOOOOOO MUCH, you (having learned history books) would NEVER (!!!!!!!) have compared Hitler and his regime with whatever and whoever you and/or others have undergone in and through Scientology.

I'm SERIOUS here!

"what Scientology/Hubbard/DM/Marty has done to the world/me/my family" or, for that matter, "will ever be able to do" is NOTHING compared to over 50 millions murdered and killed in WWII.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Carmel,
Let's not cheapen Hitler by comparing him to "DM" or "Marty".
While mechanisms of mind used here and there are the same, the results are NOT COMPARABLE BY SOOOOOO MUCH, you (having learned history books) would NEVER (!!!!!!!) have compared Hitler and his regime with whatever and whoever you and/or others have undergone in and through Scientology.

I'm SERIOUS here!

"what Scientology/Hubbard/DM/Marty has done to the world/me/my family" or, for that matter, "will ever be able to do" is NOTHING compared to over 50 millions murdered and killed in WWII.

Settle down sunshine ... no need to shout.

Obviously Carmel's ref to Hitler was not meant to be taken too literally.

 

[Lurker5]

This is my understanding of it

Ah well, I don't. I see it as an "out-point", and this is kind of why.......

*If* ya see that you've maybe been contributing to an organization which didn't have the intent that ya thought it did, and wasn't what ya thought it was, and are waking up at all to the fact that you were conned and have in effect been conning others (knowingly or otherwise), then, IMO, the natural response is one huge mother f'cker of a gulp, and then retraction/withdrawal. It's like a mega "wtf?" accompanied by shame/guilt/regret/confusion/upset.

That results in ya just wanting to sit in a corner and hide for a bit, and not having to draw conclusions, because your head is spinning and ya don't know what the fuck to think. You're kinda stunned/shocked. Any confidence that ya may have had goes out the window. ya certainly don't wanna be put in the limelight.....If anything, you'd avoid it at all cost.

Ya start looking in front of you, to the sides of you, and behind you. then ya find your feet a bit, and start creeping out for a bigger peep. This doesn't necessarily take a lot of time.....the time it takes, varies. However, the start of the "wake up" (that "first step") is very impinging to say the least and isn't followed by any kind of mindset that everything's *rosy*.......It tends to get worse before it gets better.

This is my understanding of how an ethical person would react to the truth of co$/scn. It is quite a shocker/stunner - the rug of life being pulled right out from underneath one's feet.

I can only imagine this, as I wasn't 'in', like most of you. But I have had dealings with sociopaths before, I have been betrayed - in a huge way - too. And I know how that feels. I know what it does.

But after decades of being 'in'? Gees, it would be like realizing after 25 yrs of marriage that you were married to a serial murdering pychopath . . .

There is a sequence of events that a person has to go through.
You nailed it, Carmel.

BTW, it was the 'out' points, that kept me detached enough from scn, that I could walk away - before I ever got in. But I would not have been paying attention to that 'sense' in me if I hadn't already been stung very badly and intimately by a sociopath. I can remember questioning that sense, while taking public courses - and asking someone, do I pay attention to what my gut is telling me? The answer from one of the staff was something like, Yes, LRH says trust yourself, your instincts. LOL. So I did, and got the hell out.

I think scn is structured to deaden that sense of self protection. A sociopath is like a preditor, that sets up its prey, stalks it, and then pounces when the prey has been seduced into complacency, thinking itself safe - from predators. In a wild animal, this is instinct. In a human it is evil.

Escaping from the blinding grip fo scn is like the ending of a horror story you didn't know you were living. You have that sickening realization that you are nothing more than processed food - to a ravenous, mindless beast.

 

[VaD]

Settle down sunshine ... no need to shout.

Obviously Carmel's ref to Hitler was not meant to be taken too literally.

Im in the game here, aren't i?
I've got to shout so others hear me.
DON'T compare Hitler to the puppets of the founder of scientology (even if they consider conquering the world).
HE (LRH) couldn't have possibly done that, either.

Be aware of orders of magnitude when you compare Hitler with Marty (or whomever)

P.S. Just so everybody reading this is certain that i'm not "a spy from Marty's camp", I DON'T believe in ANY group achievement of "ideal political system", "ideal religious system" and even "ideal spiritual system". I don't believe in ANY system. I don't believe in ANY Ideal. I'm just me. I'm just a wanderer in this world. Whatever answers I've found are for *my own* benefit. I'm not for and not against scientology. It's just one of the stages of my self-realisation. De facto.
And - Oh, yeah! I know I won't die when my body does so.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Im in the game here, aren't i?
I've got to shout so others hear me.
DON'T compare Hitler to the puppets of the founder of scientology (even if they consider conquering the world).
HE (LRH) couldn't have possibly done that, either.

Be aware of orders of magnitude when you compare Hitler with Marty (or whomever)

Is that an order you are giving me?

 

[Zinjifar]

There are similarities between Stalin's 'communism', Hitler's naziism, Mao's 'communism', Pol Pot's 'communism' and Ron's Scientology; they were all 20th Century totalitarian philosophies.

Naturally, there are also differences. Most importantly, Ron's Scientology was a flop. It never managed to control a nation; never managed to institute its inhuman/super-human agenda. Never managed to control society as a whole.

But, while I'd generally agree that it's not a good idea to 'compare' them, it's not because there's no comparison, but, because most people know so little about Scientology that the comparison comes across as cheap hyperbole that it's not a good tactic.

Scientology isn't bad because it 'successfully' Cleared the Planet, but, because it tried and tries. And, in the attempt it has created much harm and continues to create much harm. Just not as much as it 'intends'.

As to the whole 'not a victim' mantra; it's 100% pure Ron. Ron deliberately attempted to so tarnish the word 'victim' that nobody could use it. Ron's 'total responsibility' theory is a deliberate abdication by Ron and Scientology of any of their own responsibility for the harm they caused. There *are* victims of Scientology and they are *not*, or are only partially 'responsible' for what was done to them.

Unfortunately, modern 'victimology' theory and positioning is often a deliberate ploy made for PR reasons. Nowhere more so than in Scientology itself, which is the first to wrap itself in the cloak of 'victim' of persecution, in order to hide its own responsibility for the harm it causes.

There are real victims. There are real victims of Scientology. You can choose to sing any song you want, but, the reality is that the cynical 'blame the victim' and 'take total responsibility' game is part of the Scientology MindFuck.

Zinj

 

[OTBT]

Says who? This thread is not about Mary Jo, but I want to respond to this, 'cause it irked me.

Per what Mary Jo herself wrote in September last year, she had an incredible ethics record as could be shown by her ethics file. It's my opinion that anyone heavily involved with the CofS in the last decade who has an incredible ethics record, would not be someone who does in fact have a superb record of trying to help their fellow man......To me it would be more likely that they've been busy trying to help themselves and doing so at the expense of others.

How could someone who was still actively working and/or contributing within the ranks in the last decade, who *was* trying to help, not be getting into trouble left right and centre? IMO, it just wouldn't/couldn't be.

Rightly or wrongly I pretty well have an instant distrust of anyone recently departed from the CofS, who shows up on Marty's board and is now positioned as some kind of *hero*. I don't see that anyone who has been active in the CofS in recent times could be trusted at all until they give something from themselves which indicates that they *can* be trusted or until they at least give some understanding of where they are coming from.

To me, departure from the "CofM" followed by arrival to the Shack, is *nothing* to be admired.....the opposite, in fact. I'm dealing with newly "outs" all the time, and one for one we see the same phenomena. When I see nothing of that phenomena from those who Marty puts on a pedestal, there is nothing to indicate to me that they are "out", or not still pushing the same barrow they did while "in". I don't understand why any would afford them trust or respect until they demonstrate that they deserve it, let alone understand why any would afford it to them *because* they have turned up at Marty's place and are doing their thing.

^ ^ ^ Yup. It's true.

Newly departed scilons seem to be just as big of justifying liars as "in" scilons.

From my own experience, it takes *at least* a couple years for exes to see exactly how they have been fucked over, and admit they are total fucking dupes. And yeah, I was a total fucking dupe for many years.

 

[VaD]

There are similarities between Stalin's 'communism', Hitler's naziism, Mao's 'communism', Pol Pot's 'communism' and Ron's Scientology; they were all 20th Century totalitarian philosophies.

Naturally, there are also differences. Most importantly, Ron's Scientology was a flop. It never managed to control a nation; never managed to institute its inhuman/super-human agenda. Never managed to control society as a whole.

But, while I'd generally agree that it's not a good idea to 'compare' them, it's not because there's no comparison, but, because most people know so little about Scientology that the comparison come across as cheap hyperbole that it's not a good tactic.

Scientology isn't bad because it 'successfully' Cleared the Planet, but, because it tried and tries. And, in the attempt it has created much harm and continues to create much harm. Just not as much as it 'intends'.

As to the whole 'not a victim' mantra; it's 100% pure Ron. Ron deliberately attempted to so tarnish the word 'victim' that nobody could use it. Ron's 'total responsibility' theory is a deliberate abdication by Ron and Scientology of any of their own responsibility for the harm they caused. There *are* victims of Scientology and they are *not*, or are only partially 'responsible' for what was done to them.

Unfortunately, modern 'victimology' theory and positioning is often a deliberate ploy made for PR reasons. Nowhere more so than in Scientology itself, which is the first to wrap itself in the cloak of 'victim' of persecution, in order to hide its own responsibility for the harm it causes.

There are real victims. There are real victims of Scientology. You can choose to sing any song you want, but, the reality is that the cynical 'blame the victim' and 'take total responsibility' game is part of the Scientology MindFuck.

Zinj

Ok, Zinj!
I agree with you on the fact that what Scn is striking for, it's never been able to be achieved (nor will be).

Re: victim. The only way I can prove it to you is to meet you in person. The only way you can prove i'm a victim is after you talk to me in person.
You see, I realised that scn's thoughts (Hubbards words) had been bouncing in my head. Then I started lurking. Then I realized. There i spotted those bouncing things. Then I started thinking without those. And, viola!, I CAN think for myself.
It took me a while to "scratch" those out (and it wasn't from throwing out all the books and materials). I did that. I think freely - with, without and beyond whatever LRH had ever said.

Re: victim - "it's 100% pure Ron. Ron deliberately attempted to so tarnish the word 'victim' that nobody could use it" - I'm using it not to promote myself. I'm saying that those who think it or believe in it, should come to the thought that the world is fine. Life is Fine and great without scientology.
I even started my blog with this name (theworldisfine.wordpress.com).
You think I'm a victim? - Well, tell me more about it. Please!

RE: Scientology's mindFuck. I totally agree with you that it's naturally the "MINDFUCK*, BIG TIME. What I've posted on the hottest discussions on Jeff's blog (leavingscientology.wordpress.com) should prove you I'm not showing here my *I*. For me, it's just as mindfuck as to many others.
So? - Should I fight it? - No, I won't. Everone has his own path of self-discovery.
If that is through fight, well, let be it. It's HIS path.

 

[Zinjifar]

You don't have to be a 'victim' Vadim You're free to reject the positioning as you wish. Many people do. And, that's fine too.

But, there is no 'blame' in being a victim and don't be too surprised if your call for a happy sing-along is taken the wrong way by some. Some who *are* victims of Scientology. It's not a 'loser' mentality, no matter what Ron says. It can be a very clear recognition of facts. It's not something to wallow in, but sometimes it's valuable to call a spade a spade.

Scientology *does* harm people. Not everyone *asked* or even allowed it knowingly. They didn't 'pull it in'.

Zinj

 

[VaD]

Is that an order you are giving me?

Yes, that's the order!
Show me you non-compliance! Immediately!

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Yes, that's the order!
Show me you non-compliance! Immediately!

Lol ... I'll show you a smack around the ear if you are not careful.

 

[Carmel]

Im in the game here, aren't i?
I've got to shout so others hear me.

If ya talk with people, they are likely to hear you and understand.

If ya shout at them, they are likely to 'shut off' and not even consider anything ya happen to say.

DON'T compare Hitler to the puppets of the founder of scientology (even if they consider conquering the world).
HE (LRH) couldn't have possibly done that, either.

Be aware of orders of magnitude when you compare Hitler with Marty (or whomever)

Hitler was a psycho................DM is a psycho
Hitler created and ran a totalitarian/facist regime...........DM helped create one, and runs one too
Hitler conned people into supporting him............DM did the same
Hitler and his "puppets" committed heinous and inhumane crimes.........so did/does DM and his puppets

I made no comparison to the order of magnitude. You are the one who brought that into the picture. The comparisons I was referring to, were the ones above.

I often make comparisons here on ESMB (which have no relevance nor reference to the order of magnitude). I'll probably continue to do so on occasion, because I find it more effective and generally less offensive than shouting.

 

[OTBT]

Lol ... I'll show you a smack around the ear if you are not careful.

RPF can help you with that.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

RPF can help you with that.

Nah ... I am hanging on to my evil purposes, I am quite fond of em!

 

[VaD]

You don't have to be a 'victim' Vadim You're free to reject the positioning as you wish. Many people do. And, that's fine too.

Scientology *does* harm people. Not everyone *asked* or even allowed it knowingly. They didn't 'pull it in'.

Zinj

So what? Should we just all sue Scientology for being victimized?

Or should we become ourselves? - Despite of scientology/Hubbard?DM/Marty?

Or has the way to become ourselves became the one where you denigrate other beings?

I repeat: I'm not a victim. JUST BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IN "they did it to me"

Zinj, It's pleasant to fight with an external enemy.
I've got to tell you - The enemy is within. And - it's NOT "engrams", "overts", "motivators", "body thetans" , or "sins"
The enemy is Self-Importance. And - for (ex-)scientologists it's connected with scientology.
No need to fight external enemy. Root it out of yourself and you are free again. Remove importance of scientology. Let it go....

Just sayin'

 

[OTBT]

So what? Should we just all sue Scientology for being victimized?

Or should we become ourselves? - Despite of scientology/Hubbard?DM/Marty?

Or has the way to become ourselves became the one where you denigrate other beings?

I repeat: I'm not a victim. JUST BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IN "they did it to me"

Zinj, It's pleasant to fight with an external enemy.
I've got to tell you - The enemy is within. And - it's NOT "engrams", "overts", "motivators", "body thetans" , or "sins"
The enemy is Self-Importance. And - for (ex-)scientologists it's connected with scientologists.
No need to fight external enemy. Root it out of yourself and you are free again. Remove importance of scientology. Let it go....

Just sayin'

You are a breath of fresh air.

Post more, please.