Marty begins to crack....revealing the "True OT VIII"

[Mockingbird6]

OT VIII EP?

Sorry I don't have time to read all these pages before running off so you may have already said something along these lines but I would like to point out that IF the EP of OT VIII really is "Know what I'm not and ready to find out what I am," then something has been missed.

The lowest ethics conditions formulas handled this. Find out where you are; Find out That you are; Find out Who you really are.

If you find out where you are (really) you will come up with something like the fact that you are right where you have put your attention, regardless of the fact that you have no location in time or space or whatever. "I'm right here!" is pretty simple.

Then to find out that you are a spiritual being, well the definition I know is "one who is aware of being aware." So if you notice something, and then notice that you are the one noticing it, you qualify. Ding, ding, ding ding, I am a spiritual being. GOD! That was so difficult.

Okay, now Who am I really? This one is easy too, though an awful lot of people on this planet flounder around all their lives asking themselves this. the answer is, "I'm me." and if you haven't found that out yet, get to it.

So now, you know who and what you are. You do not have to pay half a million dollars to find that out. You may still have a lot of confusions that are inapplicable in handling the current situation you are in, and yes, you might want to get those handled. But don't ever buy into NOT knowing who and what you are.

 

[VaD]

If ya talk with people, they are likely to hear you and understand.

If ya shout at them, they are likely to 'shut off' and not even consider anything ya happen to say.



Hitler was a psycho................DM is a psycho
Hitler created and ran a totalitarian/facist regime...........DM helped create one, and runs one too
Hitler conned people into supporting him............DM did the same
Hitler and his "puppets" committed heinous and inhumane crimes.........so did/does DM and his puppets

I made no comparison to the order of magnitude. You are the one who brought that into the picture. The comparisons I was referring to, were the ones above.

I often make comparisons here on ESMB (which have no relevance nor reference to the order of magnitude). I'll probably continue to do so on occasion, because I find it more effective and generally less offensive than shouting.

I've already said in my previous post that "mechanisms of the mind are the same here and there". I meant, that people haven't changed.

What I "Shout" at is comparing RESULTS of Hitler with what the CoM (be it Church of Hubbard, or of Miscavige, or of Rathbun) can have possibly bring about. People (like you and me) are not stupid to the degree as to kill others. I'm not that stupid. Is anyone here (scinetologist or anti-scientologist)?

Don't underestimate what I say the first time. I grew up in "Communist Country", and I know much of what you've never heard in the news.

 

[OTBT]

Sorry I don't have time to read all these pages before running off so you may have already said something along these lines but I would like to point out that IF the EP of OT VIII really is "Know what I'm not and ready to find out what I am," then something has been missed.

The lowest ethics conditions formulas handled this. Find out where you are; Find out That you are; Find out Who you really are.

If you find out where you are (really) you will come up with something like the fact that you are right where you have put your attention, regardless of the fact that you have no location in time or space or whatever. "I'm right here!" is pretty simple.

Then to find out that you are a spiritual being, well the definition I know is "one who is aware of being aware." So if you notice something, and then notice that you are the one noticing it, you qualify. Ding, ding, ding ding, I am a spiritual being. GOD! That was so difficult.

Okay, now Who am I really? This one is easy too, though an awful lot of people on this planet flounder around all their lives asking themselves this. the answer is, "I'm me." and if you haven't found that out yet, get to it.

So now, you know who and what you are. You do not have to pay half a million dollars to find that out. You may still have a lot of confusions that are inapplicable in handling the current situation you are in, and yes, you might want to get those handled. But don't ever buy into NOT knowing who and what you are.

LOL, after doing various PTS/SP courses, and Ethics Specialist Course, what you wrote, makes sense, sortof.

Scientology is about making money, and getting others to make more money for scientology.

Scientology Ethics is about punishing people, to force them to give more money to scientology. You disagree? Think about it...

OT levels are NOT about ability, but are about money from sec checks, OT clearances, waivers, bonds, absurdly expensive repairs, etc. etc. etc.

 

[VaD]

Lol ... I'll show you a smack around the ear if you are not careful.

Looking forward to it, babe!

 

[Zinjifar]

Vadim, I *am* going to address this post to you, in order to save the time in replying to PM etc. My previous posts were addressed to your *position*, which I reject, not to you in the sense of telling you that you *must* accept a 'VICTIM' label.

Part of the confusion here may be that your own posts come across as you pushing a *mandatory* position. There are reasons that they come across that way. One of the most compelling is this line in your 'sig':

"Now that we've learned all the notes, let's play the music, shall we?"

You are free to reject the Victim label. Nobody's going to dispute that, however, the implication in much of what you're saying is a restatement of Ron's *own* deliberate piece of misdirection; i.e. that *there are no victims - everyone is responsible for everything that happens to him. You Pulled It In*.

That is bullshit. It's not even purely Scientological bullshit; it's a common theme in much 'new age' thought. It's bullshit there too.

We are *all* victims of circumstance to one extent or another. We are not *only* victims. To be a victim of a circumstance, to be the victim of a crime, to be the victim of a fraud is *not* to 'Be Effect'. It's not a degraded position. It's not a less valuable position. In many cases it's merely a sane recognition of an *external* enemy who has deliberately harmed one.

And, recognizing your enemy is sometimes the first step to *stopping* further victimization. Which Ron of course wanted to avoid, so, He told people, 'oh, don't blame *me*; you did it to yourself!'

You don't feel victimized by Ron or Scientology? That's fine. Nobody says you have to. Others do. Nobody says they can't and, I, for one, will not say that people *shouldn't* recognize the external enemy and by recognizing it, take the first steps to *stopping* it.

Again Vadim; what's causing the confusion here is your own 'Now that we've learned all the notes, let's play the music, shall we?' which is quite obviously a call for everyone to join you in your position as 'At Cause' and 'Total Responsibility'.

That not everyone will should be clear to you. Yours is a legitimate position, if you choose to adopt it; to reject it is *also* a legitimate position.

Scientology *did* things to people. Scientology *continues* to do things to people. By Ron's theory, that makes Scientology (and Himself) superior and 'At Cause'.

That's so much hooey and rationalization for evil.

Zinj

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
What I "Shout" at is comparing RESULTS of Hitler with what the CoM (be it Church of Hubbard, or of Miscavige, or of Rathbun) can have possibly bring about.

Again, I made no mention of "results", and I have never compared the order of magnitude of what happened in Germany, to that which has happened within the CofS - I am now curious as to why you are saying or making out that I did.

 

[VaD]

Vadim, I *am* going to address this post to you, in order to save the time in replying to PM etc. My previous posts were addressed to your *position*, which I reject, not to you in the sense of telling you that you *must* accept a 'VICTIM' label.

Part of the confusion here may be that your own posts come across as you pushing a *mandatory* position. There are reasons that they come across that way. One of the most compelling is this line in your 'sig':

"Now that we've learned all the notes, let's play the music, shall we?"

You are free to reject the Victim label. Nobody's going to dispute that, however, the implication in much of what you're saying is a restatement of Ron's *own* deliberate piece of misdirection; i.e. that *there are no victims - everyone is responsible for everything that happens to him. You Pulled It In*.

That is bullshit. It's not even purely Scientological bullshit; it's a common theme in much 'new age' thought. It's bullshit there too.

We are *all* victims of circumstance to one extent or another. We are not *only* victims. To be a victim of a circumstance, to be the victim of a crime, to be the victim of a fraud is *not* to 'Be Effect'. It's not a degraded position. It's not a less valuable position. In many cases it's merely a sane recognition of an *external* enemy who has deliberately harmed one.

And, recognizing your enemy is sometimes the first step to *stopping* further victimization. Which Ron of course wanted to avoid, so, He told people, 'oh, don't blame *me*; you did it to yourself!'

You don't feel victimized by Ron or Scientology? That's fine. Nobody says you have to. Others do. Nobody says they can't and, I, for one, will not say that people *shouldn't* recognize the external enemy and by recognizing it, take the first steps to *stopping* it.

Again Vadim; what's causing the confusion here is your own 'Now that we've learned all the notes, let's play the music, shall we?' which is quite obviously a call for everyone to join you in your position as 'At Cause' and 'Total Responsibility'.

That not everyone will should be clear to you. Yours is a legitimate position, if you choose to adopt it; to reject it is *also* a legitimate position.

Scientology *did* things to people. Scientology *continues* to do things to people. By Ron's theory, that makes Scientology (and Himself) superior and 'At Cause'.

That's so much hooey and rationalization for evil.

Zinj

Zinj, thanks for answering to my PM publicly. What's YOUR position?

I had no clue you'd make such conclusions out of my posts as to say that I'm forwarding ideas of Hubbard to this Message Board. Now I see... Am i now a scientologist to you?
Does ANTHING that remind of Hubbard smells anyone here that it's "a darn scientologist"?

Let's speak of some tolerance here, shall we?
My signature IS NOT a point for discussion. Thanks.

BTW, Zinj, I read and know that you've never been INSIDE scientology. You just "know all about it". I don't. I'm learning.

P.S. I belong to the right place, anyway.

P.P.S. Even if I don't make here any friends.

 

[VaD]

Again, I made no mention of "results", and I have never compared the order of magnitude of what happened in Germany, to that which has happened within the CofS - I am now curious as to why you are saying or making out that I did.

To put it simple:
Hitler's crimes vs. Hubbard's/DM's/Marty's/Scientology's/alterScientology's crimes are of ABSOLUTELY INCOMPARABLE magnitude. And will never be.
So, comparing Hitler to any of above is making Hitler look like a "small-time criminal".
I detest that. The word "Hitler" is SO MUCH (!!!!!!) against Humanity that I can't see any "hubbard" or "hubbardanien" near him closer than a thousand light years.

 

[Zinjifar]

Zinj, thanks for answering to my PM publicly. What's YOUR position?

I had no clue you'd make such conclusions out of my posts as to say that I'm forwarding ideas of Hubbard to this Message Board. Now I see... Am i now a scientologist to you?
Does ANTHING that remind of Hubbard smells anyone here that it's "a darn scientologist"?

Let's speak of some tolerance here, shall we?
My signature IS NOT a point for discussion. Thanks.

BTW, Zinj, I read and know that you've never been INSIDE scientology. You just "know all about it". I don't. I'm learning.

P.S. I belong to the right place, anyway.

P.P.S. Even if I don't make here any friends.

Holy Moly

Now, don't go all 'victim' on me here Vadim

I responded to your PM publicly because you said nothing there that you haven't said here and here is where the public discussion is. My reply addresses your posts here.

Congratulations on discovering that I was 'never in'; it takes some people longer for some reason.

And, Yes, you're in the right place, but, I don't see any reason why you can't make friends here; even friends who *don't agree with you*. Because, you see, ARC is bullshit too. Are you 'forwarding ideas of Hubbard to the Message Board?' Well, sure. Nothing new there. Lots of people do. Some not only forward them; some even *promote* them. And, they're allowed to. And then others take pot-shots at them and sometimes the person promoting the ideas of Hubbard gets all butt-hurt and feels attacked and pulls out the 'victim of persecution' card. Not that I'm saying *you're* doing that.

Is 'You Pulled It In' a Hubbard idea? You betcha. One of his favorite, since it allowed him to steal and abuse and lie all the while taunting the people he was mistreating with 'You're Making Me Do This! Why Are You Letting Me Do This To You??? What Are You? Some Kind of At-Effect *Victim*???'

But, as I mentioned before, it's not *only* a Hubbard concept. It's rampant in the whole New Age community, where cancer 'victims' get blamed for causing their own cancer by not having the 'right attitude'. And conmen defraud little old ladies by saying 'She Made Me Do It!'.

Court to Mugger: So, did you steal that lady's purse?
Mugger: No! She gave it to me! Voluntarily!
Court: Did you hold a gun to her baby's head and threaten to shoot it if she didn't give you her purse?
Mugger: Well, yes, of course I did. Otherwise she wouldn't have given me the purse. Voluntarily. But, nobody *made* her do it. And, thank god, she did give me her purse. Voluntarily, so, I wasn't forced to shoot the baby.
Court: And, did you smack the lady in the face with the gun?
Mugger: Well, yeah, I had to. She was being too slow about giving me the purse. Voluntarily. I'm a busy man; gotta make a living you know! Why did she make me do that? boo hoo.

Now, why is it that your call to agreement in your signature isn't supposed to be 'part of the discussion'?

Zinj

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Well, I really was a 'victim' of the malevolent charlatan L.Ron Hubbard! - For a number of years I thought I wasn't a 'victim', but that was just coz' I didn't realize I'd been had...

And I responded well to Hubbards conditioning about being a 'victim'! - I was no fuckin' pathetic victim!! - That worked well to block certain thoughts and misgivings about Scientology I began to have.

'Victim' is not being 'cause'... In fact, I was so well 'conditioned' that I 'respected' the malevolent charlatan for having fooled me!

 

[Carmel]

Crikey, anyone would think we'd been "op'd"......

.......No matter, I'm just bumping the op again, coz I'd rather go with that than the current derailing (and coz I can )

SCIENTOLOGY BOOK OF GENESIS: "Thus commandeth Ron the Commodore to Martin "Noah" Rathbun to construct a sea worthy vessel to save himself, his family, and the world's Scientologists from a worldwide deluge. For the Commodore postulated a great flood to destroy the earth because of man's evil out ethics and tech corruption. And thus Martin didst build for his Lord an Ideal Ark..."

Thus it was that Minister-Marty-Messenger-Of-Ron traveled the world in search of representatives from each species of Scientologist to join him at Sea, that they be salvaged from the the terrible technical tsunami begat by the Devil, David Miscavige.

And come they did, like pilgrims journeying to Mecca. The Believer, the Standard Tech Auditor, the Loyal Officer, the On Policy Businessman, The Clear Housewife, the former Sea Org Member and many others. And oh yes, the OT VIII. Remember that last one....

Marty was greatly humbled and overjoyed that *he* was the chosen one to be entrusted to Captain this sacred vessel that would save mankind.

So, as the tides of out tech and financial corruption began to swell across the world, the Old Scientologists began to drown in misery and debt, it was Marty that opened the only doors to salvation aboard his trusty Ark.

Thus, Marty the sailor, his precious passengers safely and thankfully aboard, set sail on the high seas of spiritual righteousness.

But, then the thunderous storms began as the deluge was loosed upon the world. And giant waves began to toss & crash the Ark about as Captain Marty desperately tried to keep the boat afloat.

Alas, it came to be that great unbearable pressure was visited upon Marty and his boat--and both began to visibly crack and spring holy leaks....

As his boat began to sink, Marty didth begin to spout natter and gibberish and in his dementia, he revealeth the sacred End Phenomena of the Real OT VIII........

-------to be continued------
​

 

[VaD]

Zinj, you are the one fun dude!

I liked your answer to me.

Except (as in your previous post) the one about "you pulled you in". I've discussed it extensively, and there pressed my point (which is close to yours). You can find there posts under "VaD - The World is Fine":
http://leavingscientology.wordpress...ights-according-to-jan-eastgate/#comment-3035

We are almost on the same boat with you, Zinj. But not on THE same, though. You AREN'T the one leaving scientology. You are the one spending great deal of time "fighting" against it and it abuses. I have my respect to you for that..
but as a said earlier, we need to meet. That's the only way we can be friends and see - maybe - see eye to eye (about everything about $cientology).

P.S. I don't like scientology but I like spirituality. That's what got me attached to it.

 

[Smilla]

And lo, it was written that all the ills of Scientology cometh from David Miscavige the deceiver, and all the good thereof - even the drops of rain that fall, is the work of Rons vicar on the earth - Marty Rathbun, man of the shack. If thou loses thy car keys it is the work of the deceiver, but shouldst thou find them, and have them restored unto thee, that is the work of Marty. If thy toast should burn, it is the will of the deceiver, but shouldst thou find money in the pocket of an old coat, that again is the work of Marty. Get's thou the idea?

 

[I told you I was trouble]

And lo, it was written that all the ills of Scientology cometh from David Miscavige the deceiver, and all the good thereof - even the drops of rain that fall, is the work of Rons vicar on the earth - Marty Rathbun, man of the shack. If thou loses thy car keys it is the work of the deceiver, but shouldst thou find them, and have them restored unto thee, that is the work of Marty. If thy toast should burn, it is the will of the deceiver, but shouldst thou find money in the pocket of an old coat, that again is the work of Marty. Get's thou the idea?

I think so.

 

[He-man]

To put it simple:
Hitler's crimes vs. Hubbard's/DM's/Marty's/Scientology's/alterScientology's crimes are of ABSOLUTELY INCOMPARABLE magnitude. And will never be.
So, comparing Hitler to any of above is making Hitler look like a "small-time criminal".
I detest that. The word "Hitler" is SO MUCH (!!!!!!) against Humanity that I can't see any "hubbard" or "hubbardanien" near him closer than a thousand light years.

Good post, I agree that it´s a very bad idea to use Stalin, Hitler and the like in comparison to what happened to us in scientology.

 

[He-man]

And lo, it was written that all the ills of Scientology cometh from David Miscavige the deceiver, and all the good thereof - even the drops of rain that fall, is the work of Rons vicar on the earth - Marty Rathbun, man of the shack. If thou loses thy car keys it is the work of the deceiver, but shouldst thou find them, and have them restored unto thee, that is the work of Marty. If thy toast should burn, it is the will of the deceiver, but shouldst thou find money in the pocket of an old coat, that again is the work of Marty. Get's thou the idea?

Whatef if I do not findeth the key to the garage, is the truth of the careth lost to me?

 

[Lurker5]

My comparison

If ya talk with people, they are likely to hear you and understand.

If ya shout at them, they are likely to 'shut off' and not even consider anything ya happen to say.



Hitler was a psycho................DM is a psycho
Hitler created and ran a totalitarian/facist regime...........DM helped create one, and runs one too
Hitler conned people into supporting him............DM did the same
Hitler and his "puppets" committed heinous and inhumane crimes.........so did/does DM and his puppets

I made no comparison to the order of magnitude. You are the one who brought that into the picture. The comparisons I was referring to, were the ones above.

I often make comparisons here on ESMB (which have no relevance nor reference to the order of magnitude). I'll probably continue to do so on occasion, because I find it more effective and generally less offensive than shouting.

My comparison of people who get out of scn is to the POWS in concentration camps being liberated.

 

[VaD]

Past or Future

Guys and Gals!
I see that those who post try to make fun out of their own past. Or discredit it. Or warn others with it.
Some just go past.
No-one (that I see) talks about future.
Did you, having said, big and long "Fuck You!" to $cientology decided that you will never be anything else than your body?
Share it, then!

I can tell you that up until 19 I believed that I was just a body. THEN I started to doubt. Now I have PROOF that I'm not.

It's good to feel a "victim". It doesn't do any good for the future. YOUR future.

P.S. Scientology (good or bad) showed you direction. Destination has always been there ($cientology or not).

P.P.S. If you become what $cientology had promised you - without it's claims - won't you be happy little fella?

 

[nozeno]

I used to believe I was a spiritual being, now I KNOW I am a body.

 

[VaD]

Good post, I agree that it´s a very bad idea to use Stalin, Hitler and the like in comparison to what happened to us in scientology.

Thanks, man! HE-Man!
At least I'm not alone here about it.