Marty defends the concept of Body Thetans (BTs)

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron

It is, AFAIK, the sixth leading cause of death, about 100,000 people in the US. Of all the millions who spend time in a hospital each year, it's a tiny fraction. And even that's not as bad as it sounds. Most of those are extremely ill, taking multiple medications, undergoing surgeries, etc. If they didn't interact with doctors at all, many of that 100,000 would die that year anyway. Which is why I asked the sarcastic question the way I did.

The logical fallacy is called "cherry picking".
 

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
And even that's not as bad as it sounds. Most of those are extremely ill, taking multiple medications, undergoing surgeries, etc. If they didn't interact with doctors at all, many of that 100,000 would die that year anyway.

DOX or, you know what.
 

Terril park

Sponsor

The link I originally gave gives data you could follow up. Here is another
couple. Also you can google "iatrogenic deaths" and find many more.



http://www.sustainablemedicine.org/un-sustainable-medicine/death-by-medicine-iatrogenic-illness/

http://www.whale.to/a/iatrogenic_q.html



You may have heard of the superbugs usually found in hospitals which
can only be handled with one anti-biotic. There have now been cases of infection
that are untreatable. There has not been research on new anti-biotics unless its very recent. This has probably been brought about by the large amounts of anti-biotics given to farm animals. The bacteria evolve very rapidly and become resistent.

From the Centre for Disease Control:-

Quite scary.


"But officials sounded the alarm partly because, if the bacteria's spread isn't contained soon, even common infections could become untreatable."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/05/superbugs-infections-hospitals/1965133/
 
The link I originally gave gives data you could follow up. Here is another
couple. Also you can google "iatrogenic deaths" and find many more.



http://www.sustainablemedicine.org/un-sustainable-medicine/death-by-medicine-iatrogenic-illness/

http://www.whale.to/a/iatrogenic_q.html



You may have heard of the superbugs usually found in hospitals which
can only be handled with one anti-biotic. There have now been cases of infection
that are untreatable. There has not been research on new anti-biotics unless its very recent. This has probably been brought about by the large amounts of anti-biotics given to farm animals. The bacteria evolve very rapidly and become resistent.

From the Centre for Disease Control:-

Quite scary.


"But officials sounded the alarm partly because, if the bacteria's spread isn't contained soon, even common infections could become untreatable."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/05/superbugs-infections-hospitals/1965133/

Superbugs are at least not intergalactic like space cooties are they?
 

Queenmab321

Patron Meritorious
Without modern data on the mechanisms of such,
spiritual causes seem appropriate.

Here, I think you've put your finger precisely upon our difference of opinion. Without recourse to data by means of which we may reasonably explain a given phenomenon, I believe it is appropriate to reserve judgment and accept that there are things we simply do not know. I think failure to candidly recognize the limitations that exist with regard to what may be known is not only misguided; it can be very destructive. This is because speculation about the world that is not suitably grounded tends to be arbitrary and irrational. Such unwarranted conclusions about the natural world are prone to be self serving, that is to say, once unmoored from the rigors of scientific method, we are likely to embrace theories about the world that confirm our worst prejudices and/or reinforce our most basic human frailties. A good example of this may be found in the pages of Adolph Hitler's Mein Kamf. Hitler's racial theories are rooted in a pseudoscience that reinforced the antisemitism that prevailed in early 20th century Europe. The holocaust that ensued was greatly facilitated by this "science."

However explaining all phenomena without the idea of spirit is not my bag.

As long as you are honest with yourself.

You are a Queen of logic and manners :)

You're kind.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
DOX or, you know what.

Seriously? It doesn't occur to you as logical that the most medical and surgical errors will occur in the population that has the most surgeries and medications? Unless you have some reason to suspect that errors are not randomly distributed among surgeries and dispensing incidents. I don't have any data to show why that would be the case.

Although they have the potential to affect the quality of health care provided to all Americans, medication errors and other patient safety lapses disproportionately affect the sickest patients, both in terms of their incidence and in severity of the consequences (Shelton et al., 2000; McDonald et al., 2000). Among the most vulnerable patients are those who are very sick for a long time. Mostly, serious, long-term illness occurs at the end of life—leading to more errors, more adverse effects, and more routine errors in treatment patterns.

<snip>

Not only do they take more medications, but this vulnerable group of patients is also more likely to be in complex care settings, like hospitals and intensive care. The median patient with heart failure spends 12 percent of the last three months in a hospital bed; those with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease are in hospitals for 22 percent of that time; and those with cirrhosis are hospitalized for 20 percent of the time (Freeborne et al., 2000).


So, even if errors were spread randomly over encounters with health care, it is the very sick who would be the victims most often. McDonald et al. made the point that people who were at risk of errors were also often at high risk of dying, with or without errors (McDonald et al., 2000). While their point was that this makes it difficult to attribute causation of death to the error, they also illuminated the rather obvious fact that most errors will happen to those who are most sick.

My bold.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Here, I think you've put your finger precisely upon our difference of opinion. Without recourse to data by means of which we may reasonably explain a given phenomenon, I believe it is appropriate to reserve judgment and accept that there are things we simply do not know. I think failure to candidly recognize the limitations that exist with regard to what may be known is not only misguided; it can be very destructive. This is because speculation about the world that is not suitably grounded tends to be arbitrary and irrational. Such unwarranted conclusions about the natural world are prone to be self serving, that is to say, once unmoored from the rigors of scientific method, we are likely to embrace theories about the world that confirm our worst prejudices and/or reinforce our most basic human frailties. A good example of this may be found in the pages of Adolph Hitler's Mein Kamf. Hitler's racial theories are rooted in a pseudoscience that reinforced the antisemitism that prevailed in early 20th century Europe. The holocaust that ensued was greatly facilitated by this "science."

Not read Mein Kamf. Love all you say.





You're kind.

You're a smart Queen :)
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Seriously? It doesn't occur to you as logical that the most medical and surgical errors will occur in the population that has the most surgeries and medications? Unless you have some reason to suspect that errors are not randomly distributed among surgeries and dispensing incidents. I don't have any data to show why that would be the case.

My bold.

Good points.

Todays Brit "Sunday Times " [prestigious paper ]posts article on how prescription drug deaths outnumber street drug deaths.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Health/article1311141.ece
===================
"Deaths soar as Britain turns into nation of prescription drug addicts
Jon Ungoed-Thomas and Jack Grimston Published: 8 September 2013
Comment (19) Print

Doctors warn that strong painkillers have been routinely overprescribed in Britain

PRESCRIPTION drug addiction in Britain is so widespread that more people are dying from overdoses of strong painkillers and tranquillisers than from misuse of heroin and cocaine.

A Sunday Times investigation has found the number of deaths involving tranquillisers and strong painkillers has increased by 16% in the past five years.

The drugs were involved in 807 deaths last year and have overtaken the number killed by heroin and cocaine, which was 718 in 2012.

Critics blame doctors for over-prescribing the drugs and a lack of support for addicts. They say Britain is at risk of following America, which is in the grip of a painkiller prescription epidemic with more than 16,000 a year dying from overdoses.

Doctors warn that strong painkillers have also been routinely over-prescribed in Britain — with a fourfold increase in prescriptions since 1991.

Experts estimate that in Britain there are now 1.5m chronic users of drugs"
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Originally Posted by Queenmab321
Here, I think you've put your finger precisely upon our difference of opinion. Without recourse to data by means of which we may reasonably explain a given phenomenon, I believe it is appropriate to reserve judgment and accept that there are things we simply do not know. I think failure to candidly recognize the limitations that exist with regard to what may be known is not only misguided; it can be very destructive. This is because speculation about the world that is not suitably grounded tends to be arbitrary and irrational. Such unwarranted conclusions about the natural world are prone to be self serving, that is to say, once unmoored from the rigors of scientific method, we are likely to embrace theories about the world that confirm our worst prejudices and/or reinforce our most basic human frailties. A good example of this may be found in the pages of Adolph Hitler's Mein Kamf. Hitler's racial theories are rooted in a pseudoscience that reinforced the antisemitism that prevailed in early 20th century Europe. The holocaust that ensued was greatly facilitated by this "science."




Not read Mein Kamf.


Ahh yes, Hitler's manifesto, MK.

However, I believe you have read Hubbard's MK manifesto? (Mein KSW)
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Nice to see someone who can confront the truth, and not spread bullshit

It is nice to see someone who can confront the truth, and not spread delusional, self-serving, ser fac justifying, sunk cost motivated, bullshit.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/09/06/emotions-iv-the-top-of-the-tone-scale/#comment-276556
MICHAEL FAIRMAN | September 8, 2013 at 2:38 pm | Reply
'
Perhaps I am naive, or just a simple fool, but after III, IV, 8 intensives of V, and after the first year of VII, I realized that BT’s were a construct of my own. I took this awareness to the D of P, who sent it on to the CS. He wrote back I had more to do. So after 9 more years of VII, I again originated that these “entities” and their “influences” were nothing but my creation – nothing but “air”. I again was told I had “more to do” That was in 2004, so I stopped auditing and began to believe I was being scammed.

By 2008, I knew I had been scammed. But folks that were out who I trusted, spoke about the wonders of auditing away from the church so in 2010 I went to Marty, and then again in 2011.. The second time, he helped me get back on the level. I went home and audited perhaps 5 sessions, and again I realized that the BT’s were just a way of avoiding responsibility. They existed only because I created them. Since then there isn’t one to be found.

In Dianetics, Hubbard writes about the fish that refuse to swim though shadows in the water that they believe are a barrier, a barrier that doesn’t exist in reality. Then he created a technology to show that the barrier does indeed exist and a series of steps to remove it. It seems at the end, he was “hoisted by his own petard”. What I have written is true for me.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Re: Nice to see someone who can confront the truth, and not spread bullshit

It is nice to see someone who can confront the truth, and not spread delusional, self-serving, ser fac justifying, sunk cost motivated, bullshit.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/09/06/emotions-iv-the-top-of-the-tone-scale/#comment-276556



Thank you for posting that. I have an entirely newfound respect for Michael Fairman!

Jesus, that was refreshing! Maybe Michael can now turn around the favor and audit Marty until he has the same realization.

I then saw Marty's post on that thread:

martyrathbun09:
You noted, ‘LRH ended up in the state that he ended up in, because of his own doing.’ Yes. What is so difficult to process, and at the same time is so poignant, is that the man devised methodologies by which one could pretty consistently be lead to the realization that all of one’s suffering – as well as one’s joy – emanates from within.

While it has a warm, familiar and wonderfully fuzzy-feel-good new age message (highlighted in red), I tend to think that this is the flip side of the same Hubbardian coin. While perhaps a comforting thought to some at times, I suggest that this is an equally delusional aspect of "total cause" that comprised the omniscient, megalomaniacal personality of Hubbard and his devotees.

Why are self-professed OTs like Rathbun so terrified of admitting that they are not always in complete control of the universe? Maybe a little humility would be better therapy than these grandiose pep talks that OTs try to give each other.
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
There are theories that this is how life started on this ball.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/origin-of-life-on-earth.htm

So demonstrate in clay that " space cooties" didn't hitch a ride. :)
Uhm.. The idea that life on Earth originated on some other planet in space is not farfetched or improbable. After all, amino acids have been found in cometary materials and in meteors... However, that life is somehow an expression of free roaming 'spirit', dancing Hubbard Style, IS both farfecthed and improbable.

But WTF.. Scientology has training routines that will teach you to leave your body as a spirit. Go ahead and float about under the ceiling or in the Ooort Cloud.. You don't need to feel hindered by my disbelief.

:duh:
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Body thetans (BT's), space cooties, xenu cockroaches, hubbard lice, scientology crabs, call them what you will but do you know these pesky persistent little parasites are what's holding you back from being total cause over matter, energy, space, and time? Elcon Defcon 1 Cootie Remover, sometimes referred to as the bridge, with liberal amounts of indoctrination, loss of cash, and forfeiture of common sense, will ensure your eternity.

Cooties.jpg
 

AnonKat

Crusader

He claims what it not is in his opinion, he doesn't forward the body Thetan claim. Small steps

Alsoo this was posted.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/09/06/emotions-iv-the-top-of-the-tone-scale/#comment-276556

MICHAEL FAIRMAN | September 8, 2013 at 2:38 pm | Reply

Perhaps I am naive, or just a simple fool, but after III, IV, 8 intensives of V, and after the first year of VII, I realized that BT’s were a construct of my own. I took this awareness to the D of P, who sent it on to the CS. He wrote back I had more to do. So after 9 more years of VII, I again originated that these “entities” and their “influences” were nothing but my creation – nothing but “air”. I again was told I had “more to do” That was in 2004, so I stopped auditing and began to believe I was being scammed.
By 2008, I knew I had been scammed. But folks that were out who I trusted, spoke about the wonders of auditing away from the church so in 2010 I went to Marty, and then again in 2011.. The second time, he helped me get back on the level. I went home and audited perhaps 5 sessions, and again I realized that the BT’s were just a way of avoiding responsibility. They existed only because I created them. Since then there isn’t one to be found.
In Dianetics, Hubbard writes about the fish that refuse to swim though shadows in the water that they believe are a barrier, a barrier that doesn’t exist in reality. Then he created a technology to show that the barrier does indeed exist and a series of steps to remove it. It seems at the end, he was “hoisted by his own petard”. What I have written is true for me.
 

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
Uhm.. The idea that life on Earth originated on some other planet in space is not farfetched or improbable. After all, amino acids have been found in cometary materials and in meteors... However, that life is somehow an expression of free roaming 'spirit', dancing Hubbard Style, IS both farfecthed and improbable.

Actually, until someone comes up with a theory on the origin of life (one that can be tested) and produces life, we won't know...
 
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