Marty Rathbun, I have some questions for ya.

Carmel

Crusader
Marty, I have some questions for you, which clearly you have the right to answer or not. You are a member here. I am not intent on attacking you. I just want to understand, 'cause currently I don't.

I watched the vid on the SP Times site. I was and am thankful for it. Already it is having effects, and already we are using it to our advantage. However, your part in that press/media has left me wondering where you are at, what agenda you may have had while within the ranks of the CofS, and what agenda (if any), that you may have now.

Rather than talk about you, here on the board, I'd rather talk to you and with you. I am open to anything and everything you may have to give. I would hope that others here are too.

These are the things I don't get:

- If you had access to funds/money, then what stopped you from leaving earlier than you did?

- If you had the freedom to just bolt, then why didn't you bolt earlier?

- How did you justify standing there, watching a mate getting physically beaten? From my experience, men don't tend to think about consequences when seeing a mate being beaten or kicked - they step in with no regard for consequences at all. I've had times when I've copped crap and consequences myself that I should never have let myself be subjected to. However, when it came to my mates, I had more courage in regard to standing up for them, than I had for standing up for myself - Human nature, one could/would think, based on what can be observed in life. On the vids shown of your interviews, it came across to me like you prided yourself on standing up for yourself. However, I didn't see anything from you about standing up for your mates. Were there times when this occurred that you spoke about but which were not included in the coverage, or did these times not exist? Self preservation is something I understand - However, self preservation at the expense of one's mates is a different matter.

- When you did get out, did you think of those who were left there at Hemet, still being subjected to the abuse that you had witnessed, copped, and perpetrated.....and did you consider what responsibility you should or could take in regard to those who were left there, who didn't have the freedom to "ride" out of there, nor the resources to survive if or when they could orchestrate an escape from the place?

- Knowing what you knew about the abuses that were going on at Hemet, has there been something that has been stopping you from doing something about it, all this time?

- Have you felt like telling "all' in regard to the Lisa McPherson case, before now? If you have, then what has stopped you?

You may consider the above a bunch of hard ass judgemental questions. They are not. They are simply questions I have, after watching the interview with you available on the SP Times site.

I'm open to whatever. I genuinely want to know, and am still open to changing my mind as to where you sit. If you communicate about this, I may get an understanding that currently I don't have, and change my point of view in regad to you and your agenda. I am honestly wanting to hear from you on this, and honestly wanting to get some understanding from your perspective on all this (as I'm sure a few others are too).

Currently, I am wary of your agenda and your intentions. Truth be known, I'd rather not feel that way about you, given the recent expose which you have contributed to. On the one hand, I am grateful to you. On the other hand, I'm sad for you, because from what I can see, you haven't faced up to what ya probably or maybe should, and haven't confronted that which I consider you should, given your participation in the whole affair per your admissions in that interview.

I'm a Kiwi who lives in Aussie. On this Cont, there's a code - the one who stands by and watches is as guilty (if not more guilty) than the one who 'does' or commits the 'crime'. It may well be different in your land, and I may well be coming across like a judgemental bitch here - If I am, so be it.

For the record, after watching the vids of you talking about everything, it's been eating away at me. I don't get it. I don't understand it. It doesn't compute - Hence, I'm communicating in an effort to understand where you are coming from. Can you shed any light on this?

Carmel Underwood,
Ex-staff member, Ex-Scientologist, ANZO.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Marty, I have some questions for you, which clearly you have the right to answer or not. You are a member here. I am not intent on attacking you. I just want to understand, 'cause currently I don't.
........
Carmel Underwood,
Ex-staff member, Ex-Scientologist, ANZO.

Hi Carmel,

I just wanted to point something out that you may or may not be aware of, which does not reflect any opinion on my part about what you have written here.

There is more about the culture of violence and control in scientology Violence against public members, in the form of ‘gang bang security check” type forced confessonals was going on as far back as 1982, when Scientology’s International Finance Police tore apart the scientology community, resulting in an exodus of many thousands of members from the ‘church’.

I was a victim of 2 of those terrible acts, done under duressss, no sleep, no food for many hours at a time and I, like some, stayed anyway, numb and overwhelmed with the threat of ‘eternal banishment’. I wrote KRs that fell on deaf ears and eventually gave up and gave in to the silence. It's like the battered spouse syndrome. I finally got out because I knew this was a coverup I could no longer ignore, but many stayed and either endured more or perpetrated back what they had received.

These and other human rights violations of public and staff are found on the internet and this subject with the former top execs is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure a longer interview would have addressed some of your questions and comments. The "I don't know" answer was voiced by Amy Scobee when asked about no one fought back. Well, it takes time to get 3 feet back of the experiences to see the whole picture and I think in time we will hear more as these members get out of the allegience to the tech mode being safer than admitting that scientology management and Hubbard created some evil policies, written and otherwise, that caused alot of idealistic and altrustic members to become prey or risk being preyed.

It's a mentality based upon indoctrination and on the committing of sins against others or allowing others to suffer. It take a courageous leap of insight for some exmembers to admit the magnitude of the consequences of their actions and inactions, regardless of the group think.

You may want to email him your letter, as I don't think he visits here much.

Mary McConnell
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was a victim of 2 of those terrible acts, done under duressss, no sleep, no food for many hours at a time and I, like some, stayed anyway, numb and overwhelmed with the threat of ‘eternal banishment’. I wrote KRs that fell on deaf ears and eventually gave up and gave in to the silence. It's like the battered spouse syndrome. I finally got out because I knew this was a coverup I could no longer ignore, but many stayed and either endured more or perpetrated back what they had received.

AnonyMary, your experience needs to be documented in the thread about Human Trafficking. In fact, much more of you need to recount their experiences in this thread. Comparatively, I have no business posting in it. Please tell your stories, with as many hard facts as you can.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=11794
 

FinallyFree

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks Carmel

I too have these same questions. Thank you for expressing them so well. I also thought of the battered woman syndrome. While I feel a great sympathy for what he has gone through I also have my own opinion that he certainly has a lot of damage to make up and he definitely has the tools to do so as well.

I have very conflicting emotions about this subject. On one hand I see a senior executive who caused a lot of damaged to a lot of people. He should have known better. He didn’t – fine. You are out now. Do something about it. Only a few people are in a position to do this specific kind of exposure of DM and his crimes. He can help the others who are still in, friends he left behind. And I personally think he SHOULD do it.

But I also wonder what he had to personally go through as a senior executive under those e pressures. What would have to be done to him to keep such a tight reign on him, keep him in check? I don’t know, I wasn’t there.

In the end, I figure the best way to recover from any abuses experienced is to take action again the abuser. But that is me. I also wonder what, if anything, else is in the works.
 

slimjim

Patron with Honors
Carmel, I don't know if Marty will answer, and obviously I can't answer for him. But I can kind of answer from my own viewpoint of what happened when I was on staff. I was not in the SO, but on staff. I did many things while on staff, that I now deeply regret. I've been away from orgs since end of 2005. When I left I was in a state of shock and didn't feel like I belonged to the real world for quite a while. It wasn't till last year that I actually saw truth on the internet and I read everything I could find, but I was very very scared. I thought even visiting those sites, I might be followed and hurt in some terrible way. The first thing that hit me was seeing the Lisa McPherson stuff, none of us ever knew this, when I saw it on the net, I thought, "No Way", this is not what I am part of or want and I was appalled and disgusted. I didn't know LRH was a con, I really did think that what he wrote was true, despite the fact that there were things I saw that didn't add up. I started to feel deeply ashamed that I'd let myself get conned in this way and that I participated. I very cautiously started to contact friends who were still in, to pulse the situation and inform them whatever way I thought would make sense to them. It has been a mind cleaning process. And the only way I can really make sense of it to you and to myself, is that truly, this was a form of hypnotism. Where your framework gets gradually altered. Almost all the people I know that went on staff had a very strong feeling of wanting to help and doing something good for one's fellow man. I believe that this "wanting to be good" was used in the technology, to get you to do things that under other circumstances you would not do. And there was no other viewpoint to say to us "hey, that's wrong". Anyone who did that was considered an SP, or someone who was not a good person and wanted to harm others. Like I said, I did things that I am personally deeply sorry for, and I have contacted some of the people I did them to and apologised. Others not yet. I still have more cleaning up to do.

I understand that in Australia you believe and behave in a certain way, as do most people elsewhere. But it is much easier to say "you could've, should've" and "how could you" and "why didn't you", when you are in a position of strength and not in a mindfuck trap.

I appreciate your honest questions and willingness to listen. I have no idea where Marty stands, I imagine he is going through his own process and doing steps as he does them. I am pleased at this step he has taken and rather than make him wrong for what he did while he was in, I'd like to encourage him to do more of what he's doing and thank him for coming out in the open. It helps me and I'm sure it helps others, and the more you do this Marty, the better I feel about hope for the others.

Thanks

slimjim
 

Wisened One

Crusader
I'd like to offer some theories:

In one of his SP Times Vids, when Marty blew, he mentioned that he didn't try to concince his wife to leave with him because of that syndrome we have all been ufortunately familiar with: that back in one's mind, they don't want to *possibly* mess with their loved one's 'eternity' *IF* once they get away and have thought over everything, come to think 'they were wrong' kinda thing.

He perhaps felt that about all his mates...tho now much later AFTER the fact....ya wonder why he doesn't then break everyone out...ya know?

....'course...maybe that's what he (and Rinder and Amy?) are now doing by granting the interviews and publicity? :unsure:

...but regardless, I also agree with Carmel's post and wanna know those answers, too! :drama:
 

EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
What I expect from a "mate" or friend...

Complete honesty.

No minced words.

No comm lag.

No flinching.

Carmel's OP is dead on the mark, Marty.

I recommend that you "answer up".

Whether you know it or not, it would be in your best interests to do so.

EP
 

Zephyr

Patron with Honors
Hey Carmel,

We've never met, but I'd like to one of these days.

I never knew Rathbun nor worked with him, although I've run into the character quite a few times. What I know specifically about him is what I've heard, by people I trust. I've got my opinion.

As an aside, I've spent tens of thousands of hours one on one (auditor) while I was in and the greatest benefit to me has been gaining an ability to read people. Marty is Marty -- he is what he is.

When he came out into the public eye , something bugged me and it still does.

How does he get away with what he did? Does he merely have to stand on a soap box, come clean and then perhaps audit in the field as some kind of amends?

As a comparison, when DeMon is expelled, will he be forgiven if he recants and/or comes to his senses?

I suppose I just can't wrap my brain around, here is a group of people (DeMon and his minions) who for years (over 25) have been ruining people's lives (to say the least) and after they stop, can just walk away?

I would have liked to have seen Rathbun make a list of all the people he fucked up and over and made a concerted effort to go to those people, one by one, and at least apologize and ask for forgiveness. He hasn't taken the first step. He hasn't even thought of this!

Not only did he fuck up people directly, face to face, he messed up the movement and all those who were (and are) true believers.

If Rathbun and DeMon (and his minions) were ever diagnosed by professionals, regards their sanity, I'd be real surprised if the Doctor's list of malidies wasn't a long one. How do these people get over what they did? How do they get sane again? If they could merely change their mind, they would have.

Going down to a border town and hiding out for a couple years where no one knows you is a romantic vacation. It's not a handling. Just becuase a criminally psychotic (Rathbun) escapes a statute of limitations or can't be accused because lack of evidence, the truth of the matter is, he still did what he did. He's got to live with it. He doesn't even feel bad about it -- no remorse.

Well, Marty, it is what it is.

In a sense, it's probably good he's walking around "a free man" because then any one can see who he hangs with and avoid them all like the plague.

I hope Marty has a chance to read your thread, Carmel, and my note. Marty, I don't trust you. I think, like Hubbard and DeMon, you are infected with a maligned narcisism -- it's all about you in your mind.

What about us? You didn't punch me in the face, but because you didn't do you think you didn't adversely and seriously affect my life?

I hope you realize that your status and popularity is only understood by your perpetual stance and rank with a good number of sociopathic and psychotic mental retards and the only ones who are going to gravitate to you are some of the same.

Marty, I'm a little guy. I was a little guy in the SO and I'm a nobody as a WOG. So, my opinion means nothing. No matter, I want you to know that I will not refrain from voicing my opinion about you and do my best to disway any favorable opinions others have of you until you take full responsibility for what you did. You don't have enough time in this life to do that; maybe next.

So, Carmel, good on the questions, but I'm afraid the answers will be just more of the same, being told what you want to hear. He's good at that. It's one of the ways how he earned his keep.

The best anyone can do for Marty Rathbun is just ignore him, completely, unless he knocks on your door and then tell him to just go away.

Maybe he'll end up in prison and can be cell mates with DeMon. They can spend the day doing TRO with Bubba.

Rob Williamson
 

nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't care what Marty's "done". We all are on our learning curve so far as I'm concerned.

What bothers me is the world he stepped into when he got out of the COS, evidenced in Terril's commendation thread. To see what is really going on with anything takes looking outside oneself. It means looking at viewpoints not ones own, in fact, viewpoints that one is not in agreement with. It doesn't seem likely Marty is doing that. I do not believe Scientology in general is effective in that respect. We are all well aware of the closed and intolerant COS mindset that one can carry long after leaving the "Church". I know because that mindset was mine for decades.

I have no idea what Marty is doing or what his process of understanding is. But from the evidence available it seems that Marty is still being that COS Marty. It seems that the gladhanding on this site has more to do with Marty staying Marty as a tool to bring down the COS than caring about who he is and his progress through. If you think it is us against them in any way that may seem justified and maybe it is. They are a tough crowd over there.

But we still can care, can't we, the ones who are letting go of that whole shooting match? Life is about individuals. We communicate one on one. That is why ESMB works. We care about the individual, not the group. I am sure Carmel cares about Marty. I care about Marty even if some of that is rankle from seeing someone choose to stay unconscious. It is his choice, if true.

But we can recognize it. And as the Church of Scientology buckles and falls on its sword and all the parts scatter to the wind, we can withhold our joy just a bit, to recognize our union with that old reality exists so long as we feel justified to hold anyone as worthy of the name of enemy.

This is ESMB. We are far far better than that.
 

Patricia Curtis

Patron with Honors
Great OP, Carmel.

I have some questions for Rathbun, too.

If you end up in charge of the mother church, will you disband the Sea Org? Will you terminate (FOR REAL) the disconnection policy? Will you give full disclosure regarding the nature of the auditing process (i.e. the elements of hypnosis and mind conditioning techniques it employs)? Will you forfeit the church's ill-gotten tax-exempt status and operate the organization according to the laws of the land? Will you terminate the Narconon and Volunteer Ministers body routing brigades?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I have one for Marty, too.

For many months, you ran a noisy "whistleblower campaign" outside several IRS buildings, soliciting any information you could get from IRS employees of any knowledge they may have had of the crimes of the IRS.

What were the crimes that you found out about that the IRS had committed - which you said you would not expose - if the IRS granted the Church of Scientology tax exempt status?
 
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Tim Skog

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't care what Marty's "done". We all are on our learning curve so far as I'm concerned.

What bothers me is the world he stepped into when he got out of the COS, evidenced in Terril's commendation thread. To see what is really going on with anything takes looking outside oneself. It means looking at viewpoints not ones own, in fact, viewpoints that one is not in agreement with. It doesn't seem likely Marty is doing that. I do not believe Scientology in general is effective in that respect. We are all well aware of the closed and intolerant COS mindset that one can carry long after leaving the "Church". I know because that mindset was mine for decades.

I have no idea what Marty is doing or what his process of understanding is. But from the evidence available it seems that Marty is still being that COS Marty. It seems that the gladhanding on this site has more to do with Marty staying Marty as a tool to bring down the COS than caring about who he is and his progress through. If you think it is us against them in any way that may seem justified and maybe it is. They are a tough crowd over there.

But we still can care, can't we, the ones who are letting go of that whole shooting match? Life is about individuals. We communicate one on one. That is why ESMB works. We care about the individual, not the group. I am sure Carmel cares about Marty. I care about Marty even if some of that is rankle from seeing someone choose to stay unconscious. It is his choice, if true.

But we can recognize it. And as the Church of Scientology buckles and falls on its sword and all the parts scatter to the wind, we can withhold our joy just a bit, to recognize our union with that old reality exists so long as we feel justified to hold anyone as worthy of the name of enemy.

This is ESMB. We are far far better than that.

Excellent post Nexus100. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Another question

I have a question unrelated to Carmy's, although those are excellent questions.

To whit; what is the immigration status for Marty and Mike? Surely they're no longer on a 'Church' visa and, I don't remember them ever acquiring US citizenship, so, what's up?

Zinj
 
Don't hate the player, hate the game.

That's true, you wouldn't want to hate the "player" .... and look on the bright side ... when Miscavige is too toxic for the cult to handle anymore and jumps ship into the freezone as a reformed Sceintologist, he will be the perfect "player" to organized the freezone from a Hubburdian managerial standpoint for all the freezoners still interested in playing Hubbard's "game"
 
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AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
I have a question unrelated to Carmy's, although those are excellent questions.

To whit; what is the immigration status for Marty and Mike? Surely they're no longer on a 'Church' visa and, I don't remember them ever acquiring US citizenship, so, what's up?

Zinj


Mark was born in the USA so no immigration status applies to him. I know this because of research I did on he and his brother Aaron Calvert Rathbun ( still in the Sea Org )

Their father died in NM and I found them in the probate records, hence the inheritance he spoke of.
BFG mentions their relationship here:
http://www.exposescientology.com/ht/headley-wwp-20090331-restrictions.pdf .

You may have gotten that he was a foreigner from Barbara Schwarz's write ups as she claims he's really a de Rothchild, lol
 
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AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
AnonyMary, your experience needs to be documented in the thread about Human Trafficking. In fact, much more of you need to recount their experiences in this thread. Comparatively, I have no business posting in it. Please tell your stories, with as many hard facts as you can.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=11794

Thanks. I am concerned that if I give particulars publicly, as they will indicate who I am. Certain people know who I really am but I was really a nobody who happened to see and get involved in alot of things. My story is on hold for familial reasons. Additionally, I have too much invested in helping victims of Narconon get their refunds and documenting Narconon's deceptive trade practices and fraud, to be exposed at this time would mess everything up.
I will keep it in mind.
 

MostlyLurker

Patron Meritorious
Marty, I have some questions for you, which clearly you have the right to answer or not. You are a member here. I am not intent on attacking you. I just want to understand, 'cause currently I don't.
....
Carmel Underwood,
Ex-staff member, Ex-Scientologist, ANZO.

As suggested by Mary you should write him, he used to answer, and don't forget to ask him if you can publish here his reply! :D

His email: sthtexlensman @ aol.com (remove the spaces)
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
This is like putting him on trial, in a way. Were that not the case, the questions would have been PMd to him. But the object clearly is to let everyone on the forum know your concerns.
 
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