Marty Rathbun, I have some questions for ya.

CornPie

Patron Meritorious
Er right.

Do you have any evidence of a single word of that [scientology - CIA involvement]?

[Personally, I've little doubt that Scientology has had "relationships" with intelligence services at various times, but that's an entirely different proposition from what you're suggesting. It's also based on evidence and reason.]
No, I have no absolutely no proof that the CIA is connected to scientology. No evidence, no reason, as you say. Try proving anything with the CIA. It just always seemed obvious with things, especially in the Sea Org such as; prison like conditions where most people can't leave at will, living and working in the same place, security people opening and reading incoming and outgoing mail, spikes pointing inward on the fences, no cell phones, security must be present when staff makes phone calls. In society they do what they want, manipulating the justice system, the media, and the political system at will. The mooring of ships in so many countries worldwide, back in L ron hubbard-Ass's day.

Then recently, when the subject of getting pictures of atrocities from Gold Base; numerous Ex-sea-org-members were emphatically unanimous in their agreement, in posts on ESMB, that even the slightest compromise would be impossible to get pictures. Still that's not proof. But I believe every word I'm saying about the CIA connection, to this scientology thing, it's all a big farce. And the icing on the caek is the Xenu and the invisible OT Body Thetans (BT's) s***. Who but the CIA, could get people believing that?
 
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byte301

Crusader
Meanwhile how many people have lost their family, been ruined, had abortions, been beat up, and even died while Marty and company get their ducks in a row?

Sorry but all I can see is a lot of people being beat down mentally and physically in the RPF.

I do forgive but it's gonna take a helluva lot more to convince me that it's deserved.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
No, I have no absolutely no proof that the CIA is connected to scientology. No evidence, no reason, as you say. Try proving anything with the CIA. It just always seemed obvious with things, especially in the Sea Org such as; prison like conditions where most people can't leave at will, living and working in the same place, security people opening and reading incoming and outgoing mail, spikes pointing inward on the fences, no cell phones, security must be present when staff makes phone calls. In society where they do what they want at will, manipulating the justice system, the media, and the political system at will. The mooring of ships in so many countries worldwide, back in L ron hubbard-Ass's day.

Then recently, when the subject of getting pictures of atrocities from Gold Base; numerous Ex-scientologists were unanimous in their agreement, in posts on ESMB, that even the slightest compromise would be impossible to get pictures. Still that's not proof. But I believe every word I'm saying about the CIA connection, to this scientology thing, it's all a big farce. And the icing on the caek is the Xenu and the invisible OT Body Thetans (BT's) s***. I'm astounded that some people actually believe it.

Mmmm, caek...
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Because it's not? If and when Terril (and others) have expressed pollyannish and simple minded adulation of 'saviors' in the 'Critic Community' I've at the very least felt uncomfortable and *sometimes*, when it seemed to be dangerously delusional, commented on it and attempted to infuse a little reality into the discussion. Over the past 15 years it's been a frequent problem, because so many people *are* heroes, but, at the same time also misplaced as Saviors or Leaders to be blindly followed. (Most of the objects of such fan clubs are themselves uncomfortable with the adulation and do their best to give a more realistic view.)


So it depends on whom rather than how the admiration is founded. That's a new one for the dictionaries and case books.

Correct me if I'm wrong- but I doubt very much that you've ever really talked to Terril IRL, on the phone or in emails. So you're not really in a position to know the depths or qualities or reasoning behind any of his opinions about anyone.

Terril holds a lot of people in high regard. I've seen him speak no less admiringly of critics and of people from other walks of life who had nothing to do with Scn as critic or member or Freezoner.

Even more pernicious are the frequent currents of 'Don't Attack Critics! or 'Don't Forward The Enemy Line!' or 'You're Doing OSA's Work if you are less than gushing over Our Leaders!'.

Yes, critics and skeptics do that quite a bit, don't they.

For the most part I just try to ignore my nausea and hope that the childlike fervor will pass with age and experience, but, sometimes I will comment on it which is either well received or not.

He's like that about a lot of things. But you've not taken the opportunity to know that. Instead, you just invented some motives and personality traits and went with it.

In this case though, we're talking about someone whose apparent desire is to *exploit* such naivete and both pander to it and promote it and, considering who the object of the adulation is and the blatant disinformation being sold with the package, I think it's a lot more potentially harmful than mere hero worship.

Is this anything like the time you were warning me about terrible messed up Buttersquashers and how they only seemed nice?

I have high respect for a lot of people I've met over the years and think they deserve all the credit they get for what sometimes *is* heroic effort. But, it's wise to look closely at the motivation and actuality of people actively *collecting* sheeple.

I think you carefully look the other way when some people actively attempt to collect sheeple or try to create them. It seems to depend on who's doing it.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I think you carefully look the other way when some people actively attempt to collect sheeple or try to create them. It seems to depend on who's doing it.

I do indeed look the other way a lot of times, whether because I get tired of wagging a warning finger or because I consider some marketing campaigns so transparent and 'fail' as to need no warning, even from me.

Marty's target audience seems particularly vulnerable to me though, and, I don't doubt he's a pretty clever guy.

The only Sheeple Collector I actively promote is Nozeno, but, he gives me 15% of the skim without asking me to body route.

Zinj
 

Mike Goldstein

Patron with Honors
(snip) "Some exes like Mike Goldstein and Alan expalin how "wins" are the most "aberrative" experiences. I don't completely concur and don't accept the word "abberative" but nevertheless, in my experience, wins certainly stick you into a wanting them again and wanting them more."

I never said that wins are aberrative. What I said was that contrary to the idea that people get stuck in "loses," what people get stuck with/in are "wins." But that doesn't mean that people always get stuck in wins or must
get stuck in wins. A person can certainly have a win and not get stuck. So saying, "wins are the most aberrative experiences" is not something that I would say.
Besides, my view of what an "aberration" is, is simply that an aberration is an ability that has gone out of control - gone on automatic.

Mike Goldstein
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
QUOTE=lionheart;262320 (snip) "Some exes like Mike Goldstein and Alan expalin how "wins" are the most "aberrative" experiences. I don't completely concur and don't accept the word "abberative" but nevertheless, in my experience, wins certainly stick you into a wanting them again and wanting them more."

I never said that wins are aberrative. What I said was that contrary to the idea that people get stuck in "loses," what people get stuck with/in are "wins." But that doesn't mean that people always get stuck in wins or must
get stuck in wins. A person can certainly have a win and not get stuck. So saying, "wins are the most aberrative experiences" is not something that I would say.
Besides, my view of what an "aberration" is, is simply that an aberration is an ability that has gone out of control - gone on automatic.

Mike Goldstein

Sorry for mis-paraphrasing you.

It seems your ideas and mine on wins are quite similar.

I remember the worst thing for me when I got declared was that I believed the wonderful feelings that I had attributed to Scn auditing would never be available to me again. :bigcry:

I was wrong, of course, but the stickiness of the wins and wanting to experience them again certainly made the enforced disconnection from the CofS painful.

The point I was trying to make is that it is the wins in Scn that adhere scientologists to Hubbard's cult. The wins and the noble purpose.

Sorry again for mis-representing what you said on the subject.
 

Mike Goldstein

Patron with Honors
Sorry for mis-paraphrasing you.

It seems your ideas and mine on wins are quite similar.

I remember the worst thing for me when I got declared was that I believed the wonderful feelings that I had attributed to Scn auditing would never be available to me again. :bigcry:

I was wrong, of course, but the stickiness of the wins and wanting to experience them again certainly made the enforced disconnection from the CofS painful.

The point I was trying to make is that it is the wins in Scn that adhere scientologists to Hubbard's cult. The wins and the noble purpose.

Sorry again for mis-representing what you said on the subject.

No problem. It's just that sometimes, people do have trouble understanding what I've said on the subject of "wins."
This concept of wins, as described in Idenics, is a very basic part of the Idenics methodology. With regards to dealing with personal unwanted conditions with clients, it is important for the practitioner to understand the concept of people getting stuck in wins rather than loses.
And if one thinks about it; Why would someone hold on to a loss? What's the benefit in doing that? But a win - well that's a tasty thing. And any unwanted personal condition, any automatic behavior that a person is complaining about, must have some apparent value or why cling to it.
With regard to how you are discussing this subject/concept on this thread: People have a better chance of getting stuck with or in a win if those delivering something like Scientology get a client who had a win to give all the credit for that win to them. If the client believes that the auditor, the CS, Scientology, LRH gets all the credit for their win and that the only place they can ever get more wins is with that auditor, organization, technology, then that client can get stuck with that auditor, org, or tech. And this is even reinforced in the CoS by handling people having wins by getting them to do such things as going out in front of the group, thanking LRH for their gains and applauding his picture!
This is why in Idenics, if a client has a win and then tries in any way to give the credit to the practitioner or to Idenics, the practitioner must do what he/she can to get the client to take credit for their part in the session, the effective looking that only the client can do. The client most certainly deserves at least 50% of the credit for making that gain or having that win. By doing such an action, the practitioner can lessen the chance of a client getting stuck with him or us.
Mike Goldstein
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I would consider 'holding on to a loss' to be an essential element of 'identity' and, while it's possible to trade and shuffle and play with identities, there comes a time when one *wants* an identity and at that point, one wants one with all the warts and deficiencies. A 'pure' identity is pretty bland.

Zinj
 
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