Marty Rathbun, I have some questions for ya.

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
he's a member here? hi marty. i think you're cute lol


Marty looks like that actor- forget his name but he pops up every now and again on tv and movies. He played a cop who had it in for Greg House on the tv show "House"...remember him?
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Not sure what Marc said - the link does not show it. However Aaron Calvert Rathbun - called Ronnie is completely not related at all to "Marty" Mark Rathbun. I knew & worked with each of them at different points in time.

Barbara Schwarz is just a plain nut job.

Hey, sorry I didn't see your reply until now. BFG states in his posted list of staff at that link that they are brothers ( next to Aaron's name you will see the comment.)

http://www.exposescientology.com/ht/headley-wwp-20090331-restrictions.pdf

You are correct, however. In just looking back at the posts by Chuck Beatty http://tinyurl.com/2q4l2q
& myself about Marty's family,
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.scientology/msg/8853b74da223b818?hl=en

and further in my notes, I see that I did subsequent research on the Aaron connection after that was posted by BFG and I found a different father for Mark than Aaron's. Mark's father's estate (Sherrill Slade Rathbun ) was found to be listed under the name Chuck posted, with Mark shown as as executor. Aaron's father died in NM. Sorry for the incorrect data. I will edit it out if possible to avoid future misunderstandings.

On a sidenote, I also found in my notes that the brother Mark talks about
being institutionalized, the one he wanted to help, well he died several years later in 1881 in San Diego, CA.

Last Name First Name Middle Birth Date Mother Maiden Father Last Sex Birth Place Death Place Residence Death Date SSN Age
RATHBUN BRUCE GRENVILLE 11/30/1952 SUNDBLOM M ILLINOIS ORANGE 07/01/1981 568-74-1114 28 yrs

Do you know anything about the death? 28 is very young to die, mental illness or not. I wonder if Mark tried getting him out of the hands of the psychs or if Bruce was one of the type III case handlings he stated he was familiar with. Mark stated that was his original interest in Scientology and Dianetics was to help him. Any info you have is appreciated.
 

owl

Patron with Honors
Marty looks like that actor- forget his name but he pops up every now and again on tv and movies. He played a cop who had it in for Greg House on the tv show "House"...remember him?


hmm i dont know who

marty has a very standard look though, i've seen a lot of older guys who look like him. sort of military dad look.
 

Carmel

Crusader
In reply to what Carmel posted,

With regards to her questions its mildly amusing in a morbid sort of a way when she asks, how could you watch others get abused, and why didn't he bolt the cult earlier..

That tells me in about 1/2 second flat that she ain't been there, know what I mean? But hey thats not a problem, just count yourself lucky because to have been immersed in such a body of pure unadulterated evil is no walk in the park, and certainly not at the level of Int mgmt.

Where its a system of predators that feed of your fears and anxieties more so then anywhere else in the C-org.

In any case to answer the question, Marty disappeared from the $cnt in 1999 and what he's been doing is precisely that, beating himself up over just those 2 things, to summarize why did he waste half his life or more focussing on destructive evil instead of something positive and genuine without hidden agenda's.

As with all religions these organizations gets taken over sooner or later at a certain level to the point it is obvious and plain as day to many.

The Catholic Church for instance bears very little resemblance to the Christian groups that were formed thousands of years ago cause the Catholic Church have had much influence from another religious presence altogether that basically infiltrated it a long time ago, but I wont elaborate too much on that now.

However, once on the inside looking out there is such a lot of randomness and propaganda and fear mongering (if your stats arn't up this time... etc.) going on that you get cut off from your own gut instincts and emotions to the point that you have unknowingly turned yourself into a mindless slave who'll jump at every command that's thrown at him.

What I wouldn't give to see Tommy Davis' face when reality finally sets in, what a piece of work that vicious little prat.
Hey X4Life, given the questions I asked, I can see why you could assume that I hadn't been there (In fact I wasn't there, in more ways than one). I do understand what you're saying here though, and I do get the 'mindset' you have described.

When it comes to Marty though, he had a unique postition - yes he was a casualty, but also a perpetrator at the top of the org board. It seems apparent that he also had the freedom and the resources to leave before he did. I was wondering if he had some other agenda that kept him there, and what it was. I am curious as to how all those at the top of the org board who knew the score and contributed to it, justified it at the time. I don't really understand why those at the top of org board didn't have a mutiny. I probably should have asked that, rather than what I did.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
I was thinking that the reaction of people when they come out of the CofS is often the Nazi sort of excuse "I was only following orders".

There is a lot of truth in this, although of course it is untimately an excuse.

Carmel seems to be one of those rarer people who continued to question stuff while still in - I bet she was a right pain for the execs! :roflmao:

The comparison to Nazi-ism is not so far fetched. Many of us felt the CofS events have/had a Nazi sort of style to them. The first time I thought that was at Siberski's "Battle of Britain" event where he and Ron deliberately evoked the wartime spirit of WWII. I and many others that I knew, secretly felt that the event made one feel we were actually dramatizing the Nazi side! :hysterical:

Within the CofS there are and were many types of people and some even played multiple roles in different situations. So they could be sweet and kind and supportive in one sitaution and callous and ruthless in another.

Hitler and Ron studied the same or similar occult teachings and you can see the influence of schools like Thule and Thelema which have similar occult roots. (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society) in their writings and speeches and mostly in their techniques.

The real aim of Scn is to create the LRH personality in its followers. This was Ron's Black Magic. The glue he used to adhere his adherents was personal psychological gain and spiritual/occult experiences ("wins") - the hidden Magic agenda was to perpetuate his personality forever.

Ron's personality was a complex, multi faceted one. He could be kind, cruel, forgiving, unforgiving, laid back, paranoid, etc.

As scientologists we took different personality traits that he displayed to us and in our minds, most of the time, we thought this particular trait was the true essence of the subject Scientology.

So if we adopted the peaceful, forgiving LRH, we railed against those who adopted the ruthless, unforgiving LRH.

But the irony is we were all "being" LRH. :duh: Sometimes, maybe mostly, this trait chimed in with what we conceived to be our basic character, but the longer we were in Scn the more we tended to morph this trait into a more solid, make it go right, LRH psychotic personality.

This was especially the case with the Sea Org, which could be likened to Hitler's SS.

Then we come out of Scn and blink and wonder how it all happened and how person A could have behaved like they did. The answer is Ron's Black Magic techniques to make men his slaves.

This is not a new phenomenon, there are earlier exes on the chain. Rathbun, Rinder, etc are just the latest manifestation, but this has been going on since the 50's.

Currently the CofS and DM are being Ron's psychotic authoritarian personality and just like that personality destroyed Ron it will destroy the CofS. The Black Magic master usually suffers terribly in his/her latter days of destruction, just like Ron did. Is this what is currently happening to the likes of Tommy Davis and Miscavige and his "Church"?

Maybe it is not too much of a stretch to liken the life-cycle of Scn to that of Ron himself. If so, the current DM dramatisation seems to be emulating Ron's ruthless SO days of the 70's.

Now let's see, after the days of the Apollo, Ron became less and less effective until in the early 80's is was a mere husk, dead inside. Sort of like the empty "Ideal Orgs" of today.

Having rid himself of his "entities", Ron died surrounded by entities, real or imagined, all were enemies and out to get him. So he was unable to trust anyone and even saw most scientologists as his enemies. This was the fate of a Black Magician who tried to make "men and elemental spirits" his "slaves".

Today the CofS has empty orgs, it has to some extent rid itself of it's "parishoners" and is now seeing enemies everywhere.

Just like Ron died alone, hiding and scared. DM and his "church" will .....
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
When it comes to Marty though, he had a unique postition - yes he was a casualty, but also a perpetrator at the top of the org board. It seems apparent that he also had the freedom and the resources to leave before he did. I was wondering if he had some other agenda that kept him there, and what it was. I am curious as to how all those at the top of the org board who knew the score and contributed to it, justified it at the time. I don't really understand why those at the top of org board didn't have a mutiny. I probably should have asked that, rather than what I did.

Carmel, remember what kept you on staff despite the hard times and the wrong things you saw? Just multiply that by a few thousand for those further up the chain.
 

Carmel

Crusader
Carmel, remember what kept you on staff despite the hard times and the wrong things you saw? Just multiply that by a few thousand for those further up the chain.

I don't think that cuts it, for those at the top of the chain. I don't know what was going on in their heads. They knew the scam. Most below them on the chain didn't. I am interested in hearing it from them.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I don't think that cuts it, for those at the top of the chain. I don't know what was going on in their heads. They knew the scam. Most below them on the chain didn't. I am interested in hearing it from them.

Jeff Hawkins explains it well.

http://counterfeitdreams.blogspot.com/

Why did I stay? Many years later, after I had left Scientology, I would ask myself that question. Why did I carry on despite the denigration, the politics, the craziness? But leaving was never an option in my mind. The overall mission, the overall purpose of Scientology that I was dedicated to always loomed largest in my mind. The daily craziness, the long hours, the abuse, all seemed like temporary distractions, minor bumps and potholes in the larger freeway of Scientology’s mission. There had always been abusive, cruel people in Scientology – Doreen Casey, Kerry Gleeson and others. They had faded away. I had endured. Call it stubbornness, bullheadedness, tenacity. I was determined to carry on and achieve the aims of Scientology as I saw them, despite any bastards that got in my way. If I was beaten down, so what? I would lick my wounds for a while and then get up again. I would prevail, and the ultimate mission of Scientology would prevail – a world without insanity, war and crime. We were looking at the sanity and happiness of future generations. Wasn’t that worth a few privations and late nights? Wasn’t that worth a few hard knocks?

So I stayed. "It can’t get any worse," I reasoned.

I would soon find out how wrong that statement was.

Reading his whole story, and that of many others who ended up at the top shows that it is the same mechanism that worked on any staff, anywhere, just to a higher degree. I was never at Int, but I saw similar behaviour at GOWW in the 60's.

They did not necessarily "know the scam". Very, very few people have/had enough info to connect the dots. They knew they were doing their best for scio. That does not in any way excuse any criminal action, not at all, it shows how what Lionheart posted about works in practice.
 
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I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Originally posted by Free to shine
They did not necessarily "know the scam". Very, very few people have/had enough info to connect the dots. They knew they were doing their best for scio. That does not in any way excuse any criminal action, not at all, it shows how what Lionheart posted about works in practice.
Today 01:25 AM

I agree FTS and would like to add that when you are in that mind set and are being 'run' like a machine by 'execs' for years on end (in this case DM directly) it would reach a point very VERY quickly where you have already gone too far and it would appear to be too late (to correct things or escape) and meanwhile you are being kept VERY busy and in a permanent state of stress (Thursday 2pm is never that far away!) and probably need sleep/space and nutrition etc ... I liken the SO to being in jail.

Lionhearts post is very insightful and I also think it has much merit.

I am repeating myself but I really do believe it is not possible to do any extreme damage from a lowly post but it would be almost impossible NOT to do damage from where Marty Rathbun was posted.

In the end though he DID get out and he IS doing things to ensure the devastation of the short and nasty one (and therefore scientology) ... he must have data up his jumper that is awesome and that we know nothing of ... and I feel when the time and place are right (for Marty) he will use it.

He is not a fool, and he is clearly (now) in charge of his own life and we can want and wish for whatever we like, but he will do what he feels is right ... when he is ready and when he feels it will achieve maximum effect IMHO.

:eyeroll:
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Jeff Hawkins explains it well.

http://counterfeitdreams.blogspot.com/



Reading his whole story, and that of many others who ended up at the top shows that it is the same mechanism that worked on any staff, anywhere, just to a higher degree. I was never at Int, but I saw similar behaviour at GOWW in the 60's.

They did not necessarily "know the scam". Very, very few people have/had enough info to connect the dots. They knew they were doing their best for scio. That does not in any way excuse any criminal action, not at all, it shows how what Lionheart posted about works in practice.

Shoot, Rathburn is still spouting the 'truth' of Hubbard. Does he believe it? I think he might. He might just want bucks, but he might have bought the goods. I've said it a billion times, but brainwashing does NOT look like we were shown in After School Specials, otherwise it'd never occur. That being said, I noticed in my own realm in Scio, that assholes tended to rise to the top. Those who felt bad or wouldn't comply either got squashed like a bug or had a major personality shift. You wouldn't believe HOW sweet some of the folks were that ended up becoming screaming assholes from hell in my little org. Those who already had jerkwad tendencies did JUST fine. Anyone who made it to Exec Sec became as evil as the ED or they didn't last. Sick. They did it to survive. I ended up cowering and succumbing to the pricks...screaming out once in a while; that was my "coping mechanism" because I believed in Scio, but couldn't bring myself to also outright abuse others. Gave up a son to the SO, though. None of it is rational. I remember lots of missionaires, and lots of attention from Int and CLO--pressure always seemed to be on. ScioWorld is not the real world, and rational rules and conclusions don't apply.
 

Carmel

Crusader
<snip>
They did not necessarily "know the scam". Very, very few people have/had enough info to connect the dots. <snip>

Agreed, FTS - Except that it would seem that Marty was one of the "very, very few". I would imagine that his mindset would have been somewhat different to that of Jeff Hawkins and the vast majority of the SO members at Int who hung in there.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
Shoot, Rathburn is still spouting the 'truth' of Hubbard. Does he believe it? I think he might. He might just want bucks, but he might have bought the goods. I've said it a billion times, but brainwashing does NOT look like we were shown in After School Specials, otherwise it'd never occur. That being said, I noticed in my own realm in Scio, that assholes tended to rise to the top. Those who felt bad or wouldn't comply either got squashed like a bug or had a major personality shift. You wouldn't believe HOW sweet some of the folks were that ended up becoming screaming assholes from hell in my little org. Those who already had jerkwad tendencies did JUST fine. Anyone who made it to Exec Sec became as evil as the ED or they didn't last. Sick. They did it to survive. I ended up cowering and succumbing to the pricks...screaming out once in a while; that was my "coping mechanism" because I believed in Scio, but couldn't bring myself to also outright abuse others. Gave up a son to the SO, though. None of it is rational. I remember lots of missionaires, and lots of attention from Int and CLO--pressure always seemed to be on. ScioWorld is not the real world, and rational rules and conclusions don't apply.

This is exactly how Hubbard set it up. This was his Black Magic! None of this is happenstance, it is a deliberate LRH-personality-making process.

The best LRH impersonator wins! The worst ones who keep some shreds of decency, end up cowering, blowing or being booted out. This is clearly and openly explained to us in KSW ("only the tigers survive" "we'd rather have you dead than incapable", "theetie weetie" etc)

Ron made no secret of what he was doing, he just kept his sources of inspiration secret and diverted our attention from them (Orwell's 1984, Crowley, etc) His intention to achieve what he did is clearly postulated in his "admissions".

In the 70's I often saw decent people morph into raging/determined LRH impersonators.

Thanks FTS for the Jeff Hawkins reerence - this clearly explains how people get to the top and how they are the most duped of all.

Many leave still duped into believing in Scn. This is because of the glue Ron used to adhere his adherents to him (the "wins" are the glue). Some exes like Mike Goldstein and Alan expalin how "wins" are the most "aberrative" experiences. I don't completely concur and don't accept the word "abberative" but nevertheless, in my experience, wins certainly stick you into a wanting them again and wanting them more.

It's not the losses and abuses that kept us in Scn it was the noble purpose and the wins. Ron was fully aware of this. The abuse is actually deliberately inflicted as a driving force to make us want the purpose and the wins more!

We can see him using this technique in the latter days at St Hill (chaining people up in the dog kennel, introduction of Liability and low conditions, etc). Then he refined these techniques unhindered by Govt interference on the high seas (See Tamasin's accounts and others of his techniques including "overboarding")

He lied to us about engrams, secondaries and locks and the reactive mind. This was his exoteric or outer dogma, the real esoteric meaning is that pain and abuse spur people on towards the purpose and the elusive "wins" and make them endure the abuse more! :omg:

Until they can take no more and the pain outweighs the wins, then they are discarded by the "church" as worn out slaves, no longer useful.

So why should we be surprised that Marty did what he did when in or that he still believes in the "tech". This is all part of Ron's magic hypnotism that he processed us with.

I know it is an unpopular thing to say, but people like Tommy Davis and David Miscavige are the worst victims of all. They are completely under Ron's Magic spell and are the current best Ron impersonators, that is why they are in the position they are. Spare a thought for the personal hell they have put themselves in (surrounded by enemies, just as LRH imagined he was!)

Ron's organisation/"church" was set up to protect and enhance his own psychotic tendencies, therefore by definition the "church" will always have the most psychotic people in charge while the saner ones go on hoping like Jeff Hawkins did or they blow or they get declared or routed off. That's the way Ron set it up.

The "church" is sociopathic and must perforce be run by a psychotically behaving personality. This is Hubbard. He is alive and well and still smashing his name into history! :omg:

Until one recognises what Ron really did, one is somewhat trapped in the mystery and the desire for the wins one believes scn hides somewhere in its dogma.

Once one recognises what scientology really is, one is free of it and free to have wins and highs and lows without the entrapment of Ron's magic "tech". :happydance:
 

clamicide

Gold Meritorious Patron
Lionheart, methinks that I like how you think...minor disparities with my own take, but enjoyed the hell out of your post. It's a bitch to admit that I fell for it...but, hell...I did. I'd rather admit to being wrong than believe in that insanity for one more instant.
 
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