Marty Rathbun: KSW & Fundamentalist Independents

[idrizomare]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

It's nice to show why OT3 is nonsense, but do bear in mind that we are presenting these arguments to people who believe OT3 on rather thin evidence. To wit: they believe it because a science fiction writer says that he engaged in time travel and saw it firsthand. Besides, all these so-called facts we're waving around are clearly just implants.

It has been interesting to watch the gradual falling out between Marty and Jim Logan. Remember the good old days when Marty called him "master of qual"?

It was inevitable that they would part ways. Marty's trying to promote Scientology without secrecy and coercion. That will require selective quoting of the scripture and much dancing around. Or put another way, Marty has to be a squirrel. That's not going to play well with a stickler for Standard Tech like Jim who has apparently memorized everything Ron wrote.

Meanwhile, Marty's ever so slowly working through Arnie Lerma's 8 steps out of Scientology.

It's sure going to be fun watching Marty and his readership respond to the new books coming out this month.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

even Helmut Flasch is calling out Marty, too lol

Helmut Flasch had already SP Declared David Miscavige ( http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...avid-Miscavige&p=377081&viewfull=1#post377081 )
Marty better watch out!

 

[ChurchOfCylontology]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

It's nice to show why OT3 is nonsense, but do bear in mind that we are presenting these arguments to people who believe OT3 on rather thin evidence. To wit: they believe it because a science fiction writer says that he engaged in time travel and saw it firsthand. Besides, all these so-called facts we're waving around are clearly just implants.

It has been interesting to watch the gradual falling out between Marty and Jim Logan. Remember the good old days when Marty called him "master of qual"?

It was inevitable that they would part ways. Marty's trying to promote Scientology without secrecy and coercion. That will require selective quoting of the scripture and much dancing around. Or put another way, Marty has to be a squirrel. That's not going to play well with a stickler for Standard Tech like Jim who has apparently memorized everything Ron wrote.

Meanwhile, Marty's ever so slowly working through Arnie Lerma's 8 steps out of Scientology.

It's sure going to be fun watching Marty and his readership respond to the new books coming out this month.

The tone of the Logan/Rathbun exchange seems heightened and more fraught with tension than I've seen in the past. I am probably sensing this myself just by the frenzy of reading I've done (the Sweeney and Wright bombshells) of the last few days so maybe I'm not seeing this through a clear lens.

But waving science, logic and reason in front of Rathbun seems a pointless exercise. The delusion is very deep with that one. It's fun for us to read but a waste of energy for those deep in denial-land. It seems to push him further into the rabbit hole.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

Originally Posted by Bill
Has Marty ever explained what all these were metaphors FOR? Xenu and the Body Thetans are "metaphors" for ... what? ... going insane?

Bill

As far as I am aware, there's been no explanation or clarification.

It's just an old PR handling that supposed to make the Homo Saps stop ridiculing Hubbard and Hubbard's Scientology about OT 3, etc.

Bill, lololololololololololol!

Veda, ain't that da truth!

This whole Xenu thing kind of screws up Scn Celebrities from being interviewed on TV. Their contract "rider" (addendum) would have to include some "special" requirements.

CONTRACT RIDER​

* Mr. Cruise requires a private room of not less than 800 square feet
each, available to him at least 5 hours before the scheduled interview begins
taping, in order to do makeup, hair and stretching that may be required
for any strenuous stunt work or couch jumping.

* Mr. Cruise requires a 2nd private room of not less than 600 square feet
for his handlers who will brief him on what to say, via wireless ear-piece,
during the interview if questions are asked which are non-standard.

* Mr. Cruise requires a 3rd private room of not less than 500 square feet
for spiritual preparation before filming, in order to locate and remove any
75 million year old alien space aliens from his MEST meat body which might
cause him to appear less than credible during the interview.​

​

​

 

[CommunicatorIC]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

The tone of the Logan/Rathbun exchange seems heightened and more fraught with tension than I've seen in the past. I am probably sensing this myself just by the frenzy of reading I've done (the Sweeney and Wright bombshells) of the last few days so maybe I'm not seeing this through a clear lens.

But waving science, logic and reason in front of Rathbun seems a pointless exercise. The delusion is very deep with that one. It's fun for us to read but a waste of energy for those deep in denial-land. It seems to push him further into the rabbit hole.

FWIW, it appears to me that of Rathbun, Logan and Flasch, it is Rathbun who is at least trying to confront and address the issues of science, logic and reason. Indeed, that is why Logan is increasingly upset with Marty, and Flasch has written Marty off.

For Logan and Flasch, if Hubbard said you don't talk about something in public, then you don't talk about that subject in public.

For Logan and Flasch, if Hubbard said that talking about a given subject in public could be harmful to someone's case, then you don't talk about that subject in public.

For Logan at least (and I strongly suspect Flasch, but as Flasch himself noted, he hasn't commented for awhile), the solution to any issue is to quote "scripture" -- e.g., an HCOB, HCOPL, LRH book, taped lecture etc. "Ron said" == issue resolved.

Marty is not abiding by these "rules," and it pisses them off and threatens them.

.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

Marty is not abiding by these "rules," and it pisses them off and threatens them.

There's got to be SOMETHING that Hubbard said in one of his books, lectures, or advices that allows Marty to reply to a blog post with a Lauryn Hill song. (and I'd bet that Marty can quote the LRH reference off the top of his head).

 

[ChurchOfCylontology]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

FWIW, it appears to me that of Rathbun, Logan and Flasch, it is Rathbun who is at least trying to confront and address the issues of science, logic and reason. Indeed, that is why Logan is increasingly upset with Marty, and Flasch has written Marty off.

For Logan and Flasch, if Hubbard said you don't talk about something in public, then you don't talk about that subject in public.

For Logan and Flasch, if Hubbard said that talking about a given subject in public could be harmful to someone's case, then you don't talk about that subject in public.

For Logan at least (and I strongly suspect Flasch, but as Flasch himself noted, he hasn't commented for awhile), the solution to any issue is to quote "scripture" -- e.g., an HCOB, HCOPL, LRH book, taped lecture etc. "Ron said" == issue resolved.

Marty is not abiding by these "rules," and it pisses them off and threatens them.

.

Yes, I had to re-read this thread from the beginning after I posted that because I was wrong about who was doing 'put fingers in ears' tech. You're right about Rathbun at least trying to confront albeit in a very wishy-washy way.

Honestly, I could only hear the parents from Peanuts 'wah wah wah wah' in my head when reading this through the first time around. It was like watching a Kung-Fu movie with no subtitles but plenty of kick ass.

 

[Stat]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

Good one! I did an analysis and came up with things like you did. Hawaii wasn't there, and stuff like that. I did learn that there were volcanoes on planets closer-by, too.

How do you kidnap and store that many people - neighbors are missing and people are disappearing over what must have been a great deal of time. Inject and store bodies like crazy. Then what, find a billion pilots that happen to own their own DC-8 spaceships and omg where do a billion spaceship planes take off from? Logistics disaster. Food for a billion pilots and staff in the billions I'd think. So now you have populated the entire planet with this plan. You need to bring bombs. You need to bring or build the soul-catcher above the volcanoes. You need the majestic Thetan Theater built or brought. All this because they couldn't figure out where babies come from? Awful, awful writing. I posted this a while back:

_____________________

Ok, say you're an evil galactic roolaah, and birth control methods never ocour to you, and next thing you know, a few million year have passed and you realize that you better get off ass.

NOTES FROM THE DESK OF XENU

TO DO LIST - IMPORTANT!

1) Find billions of pilots with their own interplanetary space craft. Who'll pay for gas and their own snacks & stuff. Also, ones who don't mind finding a rough place to land on some very rough terrain.

2) Freeze unsuspecting citizens by the billion and store them. Note: find big storage space. Also, select citizens who don't have telephones or any way to contact others to alert them to the fact that hundreds of billions are being killed, door-to-door.

3) Get the billions of bodies into the spaceships. Maybe get extra volunteers for that day ... or maybe for about 50 years. That's a lot of dead bodies now that I think of it. SHI-! Why didn't I think of birth control! Note: Fire some body.

4) We'll fly past planets with volcanoes on them, and try to locate the yet to be formed Mt. Shasta, Hawaiian Islands, and other places. I'm hard-headed that way. Go figure. We'll have to get the bodies underwater where Hawaii has not yet formed above the ocean's surface and cram them in a volcanic fissure at the floor of the sea. Tough day for the volunteers. Ha!

5) We're gonna have to catch the souls and work on them for a while. Have the carpenters make some magnetic soul catchers (good name for my band) and enough catchers for 300 billion, and some way to suspend them over volcanoes. Wait, too easy - volcanoes with BOMBS in them! Hell yeah!

6) Carpenter's will have to make the soul theaters too, and we're expecting all souls to attend. Note: Make a 'Plan B' if soul catchers fail. that would suck.

7) Don't forget to tell everyone to stay away from my eternally powered force-field thing. I can hear mom now - "you only bought that 20 million years ago, and now you've lost it?" Even if I did lose it, what's the worst that could happen?

8) Buy stock in syringes, glycol and alcohol.

9) PROFIT!

This^^^. So much for OT III. New readers, you will not get sick and die because of reading "confidential" OT levels. It's just a mediocre science fiction. And if you choose to believe it - you can still be ok. Your life is yours.

 

[Veda]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

FWIW, it appears to me that of Rathbun, Logan and Flasch, it is Rathbun who is at least trying to confront and address the issues of science, logic and reason. Indeed, that is why Logan is increasingly upset with Marty, and Flasch has written Marty off.

For Logan and Flasch, if Hubbard said you don't talk about something in public, then you don't talk about that subject in public.

For Logan and Flasch, if Hubbard said that talking about a given subject in public could be harmful to someone's case, then you don't talk about that subject in public.

For Logan at least (and I strongly suspect Flasch, but as Flasch himself noted, he hasn't commented for awhile), the solution to any issue is to quote "scripture" -- e.g., an HCOB, HCOPL, LRH book, taped lecture etc. "Ron said" == issue resolved.

Marty is not abiding by these "rules," and it pisses them off and threatens them.

.

Marty's "mission" is different from their "mission."

They are "tech" people and operating at that level.

Marty is operating at the level of an Intel-PR Officer (a high level Public Relations Officer who also is privy to sensitive information which the average PR Officer wouldn't know) and his objective is to interact with, and change the opinions of, non-Scientologists, including non-Scientologists that most "tech" people would regard as "DBs" or "SPs." In fact, one of the characteristics of a Intel-PR Officer is that he should be able to easily interact - including socialize - with "SPs," without becoming "enturbulated."

A "tech" person knows that socializing with "SPs" is not OK.

The average Scientologist has no idea that there are these two levels within Scientology. He thinks there are only "tech" people.

 

[Veda]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

Bill, lololololololololololol!

Veda, ain't that da truth!

This whole Xenu thing kind of screws up Scn Celebrities from being interviewed on TV.

-snip-

The Xenu thing is the #1 annoyance for Scientology and it needs to be made into a "non-issue."

It's too late to hide it, so some other handling is needed.

 

[Veda]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

Of course, more to the point -- why are there detailed and precise instructions for auditing a "metaphore".

Bill

You're not supposed to think about that.

All these "handlings" depend on the person being... well, kind of stupid or, at least not well informed, or a little gullible.

The common denominator of all these PR handlings is:

"It [whatever it is] means something other than what you think it means."

This handling has been used for decades by Scientology, and what Marty is doing is a variation of the same approach.

 

[Pooks]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

I love Indie, I mean Dependie drama!

 

[Type4_PTS]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

The Xenu thing is the #1 annoyance for Scientology and it needs to be made into a "non-issue."

It's too late to hide it, so some other handling is needed.

Maybe something like:

 

[AnonyMary]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

Marty's "mission" is different from their "mission."

They are "tech" people and operating at that level.

Marty is operating at the level of an Intel-PR Officer (a high level Public Relations Officer who also is privy to sensitive information which the average PR Officer wouldn't know) and his objective is to interact with, and change the opinions of, non-Scientologists, including non-Scientologists that most "tech" people would regard as "DBs" or "SPs." In fact, one of the characteristics of a Intel-PR Officer is that he should be able to easily interact - including socialize - with "SPs," without becoming "enturbulated."

A "tech" person knows that socializing with "SPs" is not OK.

The average Scientologist has no idea that there are these two levels within Scientology. He thinks there are only "tech" people.

This is so true. While a member and having been tech and admin trained, it was never possible to reconcile the contradictions, though I tried and with much frustration. Yet, once I was out and looking at the whole picture without all the pressure to conform, it became clear to me that one could never reconcile these things because they were the antithesis of each other. This is why KSW#1 could never work. This is why techies trying to KSW will never be able to, for the long run, accept where Marty is coming from and follow him forward.

To a dedicated diehard techie, he's a squirrel. Just like Hubbard said. Alteration of Hubbard's tech would change it. That's a no-no. The only way to prevent the domino effect from collapsing the foundation of their beliefs is to question and identify those things that conflict with 'Source'.

 

[koki]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkyJkqcJxCU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4oyXMkwPTw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yArPNtiQDcM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUiVZ2Av6Bc

.....
i don't disrespect any religion which can help someone to be brighter and more open-minded....
but there are a few ,that are just a joke....

I always use Banana story as an example ,....all they need to do was some googling....
just that...

it is same here...
just google scientology , YOU LURKERS , and find the evidence.....

even in LRHs Bulgravia, there is interwbz.....

 

[koki]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

maybe it is time to say this...

Marty realises that there is a lots of auditors who take "his" money - on his blog....

after a few years ,he realize there are more and more KAdrinkers ,who don't buy same old shit again,and again, and again....
so he finally (before he finish with scio) starts "inventing" NEW Scientology....
(one that old ones dont like,like your parents did not like rock,or you dont like this hip-hop or techno music....)
but Marty needs his income (and he is starting to wake up), so he is doing all that he can to keep money rolling.....

even questioning publicly policies or teachings that are TO BE FOLLOWED....

it is ,.....his last straw....
before saying:...."I am not Scientologist any more......"


hope to see you soon here,Marty...
and then read your true story's ,here.....

(i know that you are lurking here , so WELCOME ,again, Marty...)

:wink2:

 

[Veda]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

-snip-

it is ,.....his last straw....
before saying:...."I am not Scientologist any more......"

-snip-

One would hope so, but behind the commotion some things seem to remain unchanged. Those things are a collection of assertions, shore stories, and tricks.

Here are two posts from a thread titled "Banned from MartyLand" of one year and five month ago:

In reply to one of Marty's latest blogs entitled: Ground Zero for the Future of Scientology, I posted my concern about the new Indy movement and the fact that Marty and Rinder are essentially running it.

Well, Marty only allowed a partial segment of my comment to go through and then essentially banned me from his blog, which I rarely comment on anyway.

Regardless, I have some of the same concerns about Marty and Rinder running that show that I'm sure some others have. Anyway, per Marty I should come over here and "motivate." I will then.

Here's the article:

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/ground-zero-for-the-future-of-scientology/

Here's my comment in full that was edited:



Here's Marty's reply:



I guess I've been declared an SP by the Indy camp apparently. I'll wear that too with a badge of honor.

Well written John!!

Honestly I would stand by you any time and I consider you a terrific person and friend.

I support what you say whole heartedly.

As regards this from you:



I can say that in 1982/83 I must have gotten over 150 orders from LRH when I was WDC X and Special Unit IC. And those orders included grabs for millions of dollars he did not deserve while staffs were cash starved, putting heads of people who had dedicated their lives to LRH and scientology on pikes, spitting on people and many other completely disgraceful things.

You are completely right in what you say.

And thank God you have human emotions and reactions. Life would not be worth living without them. On the other hand, a world run on LRH policies including those about enemies, conditions, disconnection, cancelling all other policy but scientology policy, handling "low toned" people, etc. would make brave new world seem not so bad.

And BTW I never really worry about people who tend to "talk tough" to me. Anyone who has to talk tough IMO is not tough. It's not a bad thing not to be a "tough guy" (I certainly am not one). But to have to talk tough is just kind of pathetic.

Keep your good heart and your courage to speak out and help. I for one am very glad for all you have done to get the truth out so as to help others. I know for a fact that you have helped people and you have done it from the goodness of your heart and without thought of personal gain.

And because of that you have found real gain IMO. You have gained real honor within.

I'm proud to know you.

Thank you!!!!

w/<3

Larry

From what I can see, there have been shifts, but there are also constants.

One constant, addressed on this thread, is the unchanging effort - even though the shore story can vary slightly - to lie about OT 3.

Scientology has been lying about OT 3 for over 40 years. That's a constant.

What's changed is the environment and circumstances. OT 3 is now all over the Internet.

So the specifics of the lie have changed.

But it's a still a lie.

A lie, successfully told, results in a recipient of the lie who's happy to receive the lie, and will accept the lie.

Homo Sap: "I read this document [whatever it is], and it's completely crazy [or evil, or obnoxious, etc.]."

Scientology PR: "It means something else than what you think it means."

Handled Homo Sap: "Oh, OK." [Goes away happy, encouraged by the Scientologist who possibly - 'runs a locational' - directs his attention elsewhere.]

Scientology PR: "Look over there! Shiny!" [or whatever].

When Marty reaches the point where he's willing to say, "OT 3 is untrue and I don't recommend anyone do OT 3," then that will be a good sign.

As long as he continues to BS, no matter how much commotion or distraction there is, and no matter how clever or sophisticated the BS is, I won't be impressed.

 

[elwood]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

That's right, Marty is bullshiting when he tells people that it's a metaphor.

Marty could say other things. He could say that OT 3 is not true and that he doesn't recommend that people do OT 3 anymore.

But when he calls OT 3 a metaphor, that's a tip off that Marty is still trying to handle us with LYING.

So, if it's a metaphor, what is it supposed to represent? If OTIII is a metaphor, it's a very labored one.

 

[Anonycat]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

So, if it's a metaphor, what is it supposed to represent? If OTIII is a metaphor, it's a very labored one.

No Xenu, no BTs. No BTs, no need for auditing.

Ron wouldn't have said one would die from reading it out of order, if it wasn't one of his "cold, hard facts". It is so ridiculous that re-assigning into a metaphor or joke is pretty irresistible.

 

[A.K. Myers]

Re: Jim Logan calls out Marty

I have examined the Myth at the heart of OTIII before, so apologies if you've already seen this... but there are some very obvious outpoints...

• If the each of the 76 planets in Galactic Overlord Xenu’s sector contained on average 178 billion people... how many space-faring DC8 look-alike starships were available to transport this population? That’s 13,350,000,000,000 people, if we assume that the people on one planet (Teegeeack) didn’t need to be transported. A DC8 carries a maximum of 259 economy-class passengers, so to move them all requires 51,544,401,500 return journeys to be made. So how big was the space fleet, and couldn’t the resources required be used to do something more sensible to solve overpopulation? The price of 51,544,401,500 space trips would have bought a lot of condoms. Or Sea Org-style abortions.
  
• Why is it that something like ten of the twelve volcanoes named by Hubbard as sites for the atomic bomb blasts at the core of Xenu’s nefarious scheme didn’t actually exist 75 million years ago?
  
• With our own "heavy gravity planet" struggling to support a mere 7 billion people... how could planets back in the days of Xenu support 178 billion people, on average?
  
• If you’ve already immobilised a guy and stuck him in the lung with a mixture of ‘frozen alcohol and glycol’... why not just drop him into a star, and skip all the embarrassing volcano shit? Why not stab him in the lung with a dagger, instead of messing about with a hypodermic?
  
• Having been caught by ‘sticky electronic beams’ after they have been exteriorised from their bodies by murder, why would captive thetans that are going to roam around the place for 75,000,000 years be implanted with information about Christianity - something which would only become relevant in the last 2,000 years of their stay on Earth?
  
• ‘Solving overpopulation’ doesn’t normally involve killing everybody. Isn’t that kind of counterproductive? I mean, you’d want some people left in your empire, wouldn’t you? If so... where are they now?
  
• If the ‘Loyal Officers’ were finally able to overthrow Xenu and lock him up... why didn’t they clear up the mess he created? Why didn’t they either vacuum up all the loose thetans again and assist them, or destroy them... or simply sterilise Teegeeack, so that no host bodies or future victims would evolve?
  
• Why is the bad guy’s name sometimes spelled Xenu, and sometimes Xemu, anyway? I mean, are Ron's methods *gasp* prone to inaccuracy?

What truly embarrasses me is that in the late 70's I bought this drivel hook line and sinker. I was so brain washed (brain dead) that I never took even a moment to notice, let alone look at, these outpoints.

Old Hubbie wasn't that well educated and some of the stuff about plate tectonics wasn't known back then, but, like him talking about the Piltdown man (which turned out to be a hoax), if Hubbie had had actual knowledge from "the track" he should have known better.