Marty Rathbun: thoughts on Scientology and spirituality

[Veda]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

SCIENTOLOGIST
PRACTICING
SCIENTOLOGY
ALERT!!


​

You are arguing that your own deceptive propaganda is "reasonable"? LOL

"Seek(ing) to live with the truth" is Scientology? LOL

Your sordid attempts to spin and re-define what Scientology actually is are becoming really pathetic.

Have you ever even fooled one ex-Scientologist here on this board with such bizarre sophistry which would have people believe that "practicing Scientology" has something to do with being truthful or honest?

How conveniently un-clever of you to have forgotten that Hubbard directly and unequivocally trained and ordered Scientologists to: MAKE LIES. MAKE MORE LIES. MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MORE LIES.

How disingenuous to hide the fact that for every policy or piece of "tech" where Hubbard advised being "truthful" he had another policy or piece of tech that advised lying, TR-L, shore stories, forging, deceiving and "manufacturing" evidence against innocent people.

Your post is, itself, a great example of not living with the truth, Hubbard style, and should be put on display in a gallery at the Museum of Acceptable Truths.

Baker, no ex-Scientologist who is half-way intelligent believes your complete bullshit. Lurkers beware of this guy--he is desperately trying to promote the "tech" and "truth" of L. Ron Hubbard by only selectively telling 50% the story (see Hubbard Law of Commotion*).





* Hubbard Law of Commotion: For each policy and piece of tech in Scientology, there is an equal and opposite policy and piece of tech.
​

 

[Terril park]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

There is the Happiness RD based on the booklet, and its associated course and internship I believe. I received the HRD while on staff as a staff intern (Thelma Cusworth) chose me for a pc. Beyond that, there is absolutely NOTHING that I recall. TWTH exists in its own little universe. I don't recall it being referred to once as something that a staff member should follow. No Ethics Officer ever showed it to me as something I should be following. No Cramming Order I received referred to it. The only time I even saw the booklets was when I sold some to a public and ended up in the (damp) bookstore storage room investigating the hundreds of damaged copies he had paid good money for.

I don't recall TWTH being an item for staff at ITO either.

Maybe someone else here has a different experience.

Paul

Many stories how recieving HRD led people to leave staff.

Just in case you didn't see them. Can't recall if any or many were here.

 

[Veda]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

There is the Happiness RD based on the booklet, and its associated course and internship I believe. I received the HRD while on staff as a staff intern (Thelma Cusworth) chose me for a pc. Beyond that, there is absolutely NOTHING that I recall. TWTH exists in its own little universe. I don't recall it being referred to once as something that a staff member should follow. No Ethics Officer ever showed it to me as something I should be following. No Cramming Order I received referred to it. The only time I even saw the booklets was when I sold some to a public and ended up in the (damp) bookstore storage room investigating the hundreds of damaged copies he had paid good money for.

I don't recall TWTH being an item for staff at ITO either.

Maybe someone else here has a different experience.

Paul

 

[Lone Star]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

SCIENTOLOGIST
PRACTICING
SCIENTOLOGY
ALERT!!


​

You are arguing that your own deceptive propaganda is "reasonable"? LOL

"Seek(ing) to live with the truth" is Scientology? LOL

Your sordid attempts to spin and re-define what Scientology actually is are becoming really pathetic.

Have you ever even fooled one ex-Scientologist here on this board with such bizarre sophistry which would have people believe that "practicing Scientology" has something to do with being truthful or honest?

How conveniently un-clever of you to have forgotten that Hubbard directly and unequivocally trained and ordered Scientologists to: MAKE LIES. MAKE MORE LIES. MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MORE LIES.

How disingenuous to hide the fact that for every policy or piece of "tech" where Hubbard advised being "truthful" he had another policy or piece of tech that advised lying, TR-L, shore stories, forging, deceiving and "manufacturing" evidence against innocent people.

Your post is, itself, a great example of not living with the truth, Hubbard style, and should be put on display in a gallery at the Museum of Acceptable Truths.

Baker, no ex-Scientologist who is half-way intelligent believes your complete bullshit. Lurkers beware of this guy--he is desperately trying to promote the "tech" and "truth" of L. Ron Hubbard by only selectively telling 50% the story (see Hubbard Law of Commotion*).





* Hubbard Law of Commotion: For each policy and piece of tech in Scientology, there is an equal and opposite policy and piece of tech.
​

Hoaxie, you are full of yourself too. He is not "desperately trying to promote the 'tech' and 'truth' of L. Ron Hubbard by only selectively telling 50% of the story". That's quite a stretch there. Hyperbole to the nth degree. Okay, it's Bullshit.

How many times has Mark said LRH was mentally ill on this Board? I of course don't know exactly but over the past year it has been quite a few times. Does he just say that to deceive? Okay, so he says LRH was basically nuts but is actually covertly working to "promote the truth of LRH". Sounds logical.

In the post of his in which you are "deconstructing", all he did was show the irony of how the CoS does not practice a tenet of TWTH which is "seek to live with the truth". I think we all agree that this is true. But you go on this wild ride of delusional accusations and well, conspiracies. In actuality that's what you and Veda are....Conspiracy Theorists. You just happen to be far more comedic and creative than Veda.

And yes Mark is a Scientologist. (Oh that Rotten Bastard! Let's get him!) Although you know he's not a KSW practicing orthodox Scientologist. As you say, he really can be referred to as a Bakerologist. So? How many of you have converted to Bakerology? Anyone? Don't be shy....Speak up. That's what I thought....No One.

You and Veda really should quit worrying about Mark deceiving Lurkers....For Crying Out Loud. Talk about Sophistry.....

 

[Veda]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

Many stories how recieving HRD led people to leave staff.

Just in case you didn't see them. Can't recall if any or many were here.

Just as many or more remained in.

'TWTH' was soon married with sec checking and the False Purpose (evil purpose) RD.

For a short time, when Hubbard was in very deep hiding (1980/1981ish), things in Scientology were a bit loose. The 'TWTH' RD was developed as a money maker (something which Hubbard approved and encouraged), being the "latest from Ron."

David Mayo, still a Sea Org member, did his best to assemble a benign RD (from Hubbard's sometimes weird "Precepts"), and, as Mayo developed it, 'TWTH' RD was used, until Hubbard fired Mayo, had him kidnapped, and forced to run around a pole for months as his teeth fell out. Mayo finally escaped.

Then "TWTH' RD was "cleansed" of Mayo's influence, and put back "On Source."

Today it is part of the deceptive gradual mind f__k, envisioned by Hubbard.

 

[clamicide]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

@Paul's post....

At our org, I did see cramming orders that included TWTH. However, the HRD had been (recently, I believe) added as a Bridge step, so it was a bit more in everyone's mind. I think I only delivered two or so of them, but from what I saw, people seemed to get a really huge win out of it, or just got bored out of their minds on it. It seemed a bit tedious for a lot of pcs that it didn't 'indicate' to.

Staff briefings and donor briefings were usually about how we had to get this booklet into an area, so that ethics were there, so that when Scientology went there, Scientology could be delivered without hindrance. We were 'injecting theta into the area'. Ah yes, you have to get ethics in before tech... it was also mentioned again and again as a PR move. Not a big secret... heck, the DSA told us as much.

I know this was initially about MR, but I must have a crashing MU, because I went blank on all that and kinda got hooked into the WTH stuff, because the WTH was something that just grated a bit... something about accepting all religions and having heard so many tapes where Hub just slammed the fuck out of other ones.

 

[degraded being]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

@Paul's post....

At our org, I did see cramming orders that included TWTH. However, the HRD had been (recently, I believe) added as a Bridge step, so it was a bit more in everyone's mind. I think I only delivered two or so of them, but from what I saw, people seemed to get a really huge win out of it, or just got bored out of their minds on it. It seemed a bit tedious for a lot of pcs that it didn't 'indicate' to.

Staff briefings and donor briefings were usually about how we had to get this booklet into an area, so that ethics were there, so that when Scientology went there, Scientology could be delivered without hindrance. We were 'injecting theta into the area'. Ah yes, you have to get ethics in before tech... it was also mentioned again and again as a PR move. Not a big secret... heck, the DSA told us as much.

I know this was initially about MR, but I must have a crashing MU, because I went blank on all that and kinda got hooked into the WTH stuff, because the WTH was something that just grated a bit... something about accepting all religions and having heard so many tapes where Hub just slammed the fuck out of other ones.

I think I did TWTH as part of the HRD??? I can't remember how big a part TWTH played in it, but it seemed very unimportant to me. I'm sure it was supposed to be a much more important component than it actually was for me personally. I do remember sort of looking at the "ten commandments" one by one and having to say something about them. I was like, "oh yeah, sounds nice in a watery, insipid sort of way I suppose....might be appealing to someone else, somewhere, like some kids in preschool...maybe". That's not exactly what I said to the "auditor" but that is the impression Ron's gift to mankind, TWTH had on me.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

There is the Happiness RD based on the booklet, and its associated course and internship I believe. I received the HRD while on staff as a staff intern (Thelma Cusworth) chose me for a pc. Beyond that, there is absolutely NOTHING that I recall. ...

Hmmm, both a course AND an auditing program. Fancy that!

That sounds like it does have some sort of an official status within the church despite it's lack of an ecclesiastical character!
And where have I heard something like that before?

Oh yeah!


Mark A. Baker
p.s.

 

[Veda]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

Hmmm, both a course AND an auditing program. Fancy that!

That sounds like it does have some sort of an official status within the church despite it's lack of an ecclesiastical character!
And where have I heard something like that before?

Oh yeah!


Mark A. Baker
p.s.

Why not include the rest of the post?

-snip-

TWTH exists in its own little universe. I don't recall it being referred to once as something that a staff member should follow. No Ethics Officer ever showed it to me as something I should be following. No Cramming Order I received referred to it. The only time I even saw the booklets was when I sold some to a public and ended up in the (damp) bookstore storage room investigating the hundreds of damaged copies he had paid good money for.

I don't recall TWTH being an item for staff at ITO either.

Maybe someone else here has a different experience.

Paul

 

[clamicide]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

I think I did TWTH as part of the HRD??? I can't remember how big a part TWTH played in it, but it seemed very unimportant to me. I'm sure it was supposed to be a much more important component than it actually was for me personally. I do remember sort of looking at the "ten commandments" one by one and having to say something about them. I was like, "oh yeah, sounds nice in a watery, insipid sort of way I suppose....might be appealing to someone else, somewhere, like some kids in preschool...maybe". That's not exactly what I said to the "auditor" but that is the impression Ron's gift to mankind, TWTH had on me.

Yeah... I don't remember a ton about it, but I do remember each of the precepts got addressed and you did false data stripping on each one. I think that maybe ruds were flown on them also? It was sort of an odd duck to me at the time. The pc I ran it on for getting certed in it just wanted to get through it, as she felt the same way as you did.

 

[Vittorio]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

Marty is a stranger to the truth.

Once he starts telling it rather than these little half truths he drops when he knows he can no longer get away with lying and or when he realizes the official Ron is not accepting by the outside world.

Just told the whole for goodness sake and lets get everything out in the open; it's the things that remain hidden that are the most dangerous.

This is what happens when I write a post following an epileptic seizure, lots of typo's. I hope you all catch my drift....

Many stories how recieving HRD led people to leave staff.

Just in case you didn't see them. Can't recall if any or many were here.

TWTH is a PR tool in contradiction to much of Hubbards writings. Probably creates a lot of cognitive dissonance, although I've note seen anything to back your statement up, I'll take your word for it. Most people seem to have left staff/ Scientology because they could no longer tolerate the being abuse or abusing others and the associated PTSD.

Hoaxie, you are full of yourself too. He is not "desperately trying to promote the 'tech' and 'truth' of L. Ron Hubbard by only selectively telling 50% of the story". That's quite a stretch there. Hyperbole to the nth degree. Okay, it's Bullshit.

How many times has Mark said LRH was mentally ill on this Board? I of course don't know exactly but over the past year it has been quite a few times. Does he just say that to deceive? Okay, so he says LRH was basically nuts but is actually covertly working to "promote the truth of LRH". Sounds logical.

In the post of his in which you are "deconstructing", all he did was show the irony of how the CoS does not practice a tenet of TWTH which is "seek to live with the truth". I think we all agree that this is true. But you go on this wild ride of delusional accusations and well, conspiracies. In actuality that's what you and Veda are....Conspiracy Theorists. You just happen to be far more comedic and creative than Veda.

And yes Mark is a Scientologist. (Oh that Rotten Bastard! Let's get him!) Although you know he's not a KSW practicing orthodox Scientologist. As you say, he really can be referred to as a Bakerologist. So? How many of you have converted to Bakerology? Anyone? Don't be shy....Speak up. That's what I thought....No One.

You and Veda really should quit worrying about Mark deceiving Lurkers....For Crying Out Loud. Talk about Sophistry.....

The point I was making was that Marty was building half truths as he could no longer get away with promoting the fake PR of Hubbard he spent so long protecting as a Church member. What he does now is shift the blame onto Miscavige for creating this false biography rather than lay some of the responsibility with Hubbard himself.

I believe Mark was essentially backing my statement up.

 

[tired_of_pain]

Re: Marty: "I do not limit my practice... to solely the practice of Scientology."

The part my husband observed was toward the end, around where Marty discusses his book (or the lack thereof).


I asked him today what the signs are in general, and he rattled some off:
Constant licking of the lips, added words as a stalling tactic.


Gestures that go in front of the body (defensive) rather than to the side which is physically more comfortable.


Stiffness of the head and neck


Shifting eyes that go to the left in particular ... That indicates that the brain is constructing an image or a sound, or as detectives call it, "making shit up."

I found this interesting video by someone on Why We Protest:
[video=youtube;0Lh6TLfLgyU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lh6TLfLgyU[/video]

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

... TWTH is a PR tool in contradiction to much of Hubbards writings. Probably creates a lot of cognitive dissonance, although I've note seen anything to back your statement up, I'll take your word for it. Most people seem to have left staff/ Scientology because they could no longer tolerate the being abuse or abusing others and the associated PTSD. ...

The HRD was the last action I completed before I ultimately left the church. It was also my favorite action of all. I had tremendous personal benefit from it, some of it quite astonishing. It had been developed by the Mayo's, both Julie & David. My understanding is that it was altered by the church later. My suspicion was it was in some ways a bit too effective.

During the Great Schism of the '80s many of those who left were recent HRD completions. For many it served as a key motivation to try and change conditions. Inevitably, one way or another, that led to their departures.

... The point I was making was that Marty was building half truths as he could no longer get away with promoting the fake PR of Hubbard he spent so long protecting as a Church member. What he does now is shift the blame onto Miscavige for creating this false biography rather than lay some of the responsibility with Hubbard himself.

I believe Mark was essentially backing my statement up.

Yes.


Mark A. Baker

 

[CommunicatorIC]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

At what point did you predict that a comment moderated, approved and posted on Marty's blog would: (a) link to Arnie Lerma's website; and (b) talk about Ron slaughtering his own children?

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/ron-the-integral-thinker/#comment-259067

Martin Gibson | March 17, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Reply

Pretty sure Marty was

Martin Gibson | March 17, 2013 at 10:35 pm | Reply

oops, touch pad error – that part comment posted itself, anyway, pretty sure Marty was referring to Count Kryzoyski (sic – whatever) writing style from a reply 2 comments down.

Re: Nibs – He was awesome and deserves mention. Helped create TRs and other tech. He needs a public embrace as to the value he truly had (see: http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/tape-by-L-Ron-Hubbard-jr.htm ) , LRH slaughtered his own blood on that one, and he didnt treat Quentin much better.

 

[Andtheyalllived]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

At what point did you predict that a comment moderated, approved and posted on Marty's blog would: (a) link to Arnie Lerma's website; and (b) talk about Ron slaughtering his own children?

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/ron-the-integral-thinker/#comment-259067

And yet they ignore that completely, to argue about the value of Korzybski, and whether or not "Ron" gave Freud proper credit...

They remind me of a mother-in-law who hears something unpleasant, and turns her frozen smile toward the window and changes the subject.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

I just noticed the following claim from Pat Krenik on Rathbun's blog.

Patricia Krenik | March 16, 2013 at 12:42 am | Reply

Hayakawa and Ron were roommates in College. Apparently there was some falling out. Hayakawa was of course a strong proponent of Korzybski, and had written a book himself on General Semantics. ...

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/ron-the-integral-thinker/#comment-258836

Personally I find the idea "highly unlikely". If anyone has evidence to support it please feel free to offer it.

I was previously banned from MR's site, but I've attempted to respond to Pat with the following data from wikipedia.

Mark A. Baker | March 18, 2013 at 6:24 pm | Reply
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Sorry, Pat. That story sounds like something completely made up by the church. Where did you get it?

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._I._Hayakawa

“Samuel Ichiye Hayakawa (July 18, 1906 – February 27, 1992) was a Canadian-born American academic and political figure of Japanese ancestry. He was an English professor, and served as president of San Francisco State University and then as United States Senator from California from 1977 to 1983. Born in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, he was educated in the public schools of Calgary, Alberta and Winnipeg, Manitoba and received an undergraduate degree from the University of Manitoba in 1927 and graduate degrees in English from McGill University in 1928 and the University of Wisconsin–Madison in 1935.”

Hubbard did not go to those schools. Nor is there anything to suggest he ever had occasion to room with S.I. Hayakawa.

One more reason why it is important to accurately report and reflect upone the true history of hubbard and the church and not merely repeat the old lies used to comfort the faithful.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/ron-the-integral-thinker/#comment-259114

We'll see if the remark makes it past the censor. If not, at least it is recorded here.


Mark A. Baker

 

[SpecialFrog]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

We'll see if the remark makes it past the censor. If not, at least it is recorded here.

It did, and the only reply is an assertion that random anecdotes are more likely to be true than evidence.

Mark, I also have the data from a trustful source that they where the roommates. There is even written evidence to that.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/ron-the-integral-thinker/#comment-259168

Even if Hayakawa had gone to GWU (which there is no evidence he did) he would have been a PhD student and unlikely to be roomed with a freshman.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Marty: "Ron... did not immaculately conceive Dianetics and Scientology"

It did, and the only reply is an assertion that random anecdotes are more likely to be true than evidence. ...

Yes, I've attempted to add a response.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/ron-the-integral-thinker/#comment-259397

Mark A. Baker | March 20, 2013 at 12:37 am | Reply
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Tatiana, what you choose to believe is your business. That doesn’t make your source credible in this matter however nice and informative he may be personally.

The available facts simply do not match up with the legend.

Ultimately the only potential genuine sources trace back to either Hayakawa or Hubbard. Given the amount of fanciful detail LRH customarily used in embroidering his life’s history in order to appear more successful and interesting to potential acolytes, only one of them would actually be credible as a source. Guess which one.

Mark A. Baker

 

[CommunicatorIC]

Marty: "That formula requires the individual to change the very essence of his being"

Marty: "That formula requires the individual to change the very essence of his being" ("The Enemy")

Another post in which Marty traces problems in Scientology not to DM, but to the Tech itself.

Oh, and paging Hoaxie. Marty clearly recognizes the Hubbard Law of Commotion.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/the-enemy/

The Enemy

Posted on March 21, 2013 by martyrathbun09 | 15 Comments

I commented twice in the discussion on the post Scientology Regression that there is no enemy; the malady is having to have one. Apparently, Scientology instills the firm belief that there are people worthy of the label ‘enemy’, and that such people must be depowered and dispensed with, or in some cases made to be and act in an acceptable way. I’m sure someone will cite to What Is Greatness?, originally published as a magazine article in March 1966, to stop this train of thought. In that case, someone else can just as easily cite HCO PL The Responsibilities of Leaders, issued as policy less than a year later, which justifies murder provided it is carried out stealthily against the enemy of a worthy enough power.

You even have a self-auditing process in Scientology designed for people deemed by authorities in the group to have acted in a way that warrants the label ‘enemy.’ That formula requires the individual to change the very essence of his being – his very concept of his own identity – to conform to the liking of the powers that be in the group. That can be a rather dysfunctional, destructive process given the fact that finding out who one really is is the end product of the Scientology bridge itself. In order to be accepted back into the group he must, in addition to other steps, ‘deliver an effective blow to the enemies of the group one has been pretending to be part of despite personal danger.’

I think it is worthwhile for someone who has adopted Scientology beliefs to think about what notions have been inculcated into oneself about labeling people as ‘enemy’ and treating them as such. Think about the effect it might have on your relations and your own peace of mind.
For contemplation about how to deal with anyone who might declare you an enemy of him or her, an apt passage from the Tao Te Ching describing what is a ‘great man’ might assist:

He thinks of his enemy as the shadow that he himself casts.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

--snip--

Oh, and paging Hoaxie. Marty clearly recognizes the Hubbard Law of Commotion.

LOL.

Yes, this is the third time in the past month or so that I have seen Marty refer (without attribution, lol) to the Hubbard Law of Commotion.

Marty, of late, has picked up incredible speed on the runway.

Air control to Marty. You may switch off the auto-pilot of your DC-8 now, you are cleared for takeoff (from Scientology).




ps: I was almost tempted (for fun) see what would happen if I posted a comment on Marty's Blog, including a link to the Stupid Thread post that included all of the Hubbard Laws. LOL. Marty might be cleared for takeoff, but I don't think he's quite ready to be "Cleared" for De-Ronifying.