Marty Rathbun

HelluvaHoax!

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But you missed the fact that Rathbun is a true believer. Tech trumps all other considerations. ---snip---

True Believer ("TB") is a fascinating category, which Rathbun appears to fall into. But, perhaps within that designation there are different levels of indoctrination....

TB LIGHT TRANCE: Moves with the herd but can easily be distracted or wander off.

TB MESMERIZED: Excited with imaginary realities while in close proximity to other True Believers. Able to self-sustain and superimpose delusional thoughts of paradise over normal human existence for extended periods.

TB SOMNAMBULIST: Full hallucinogenic sleep-walking auto-pilot, carrying out remote controlled scriptural mandates with unquestioning certainty and vigor.

.......so where does Rathbun fit in? Hmmmmm. Maybe there is another category...

TB HOLY MAN: An advanced spiritual master whose ministry lovingly offers the glorious rapture of True Belief to the deserving masses. (additional scripture on "deserving" at HCOPL Free Service Free Fall)
 
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Mystic

Crusader
True Believer ("TB") is a fascinating category, which Rathbun appears to fall into. But, perhaps within that designation there are different levels of indoctrination....

TB LIGHT TRANCE: Moves with the herd but can easily be distracted or wander off.

TB MESMERIZED: Excited with imaginary realities while in close proximity to other True Believers. Able to self-sustain and superimpose delusional thoughts of paradise over normal human existence for extended periods.

TB SOMNAMBULIST: Full hallucinogenic sleep-walking auto-pilot, carrying out remote controlled scriptural mandates with unquestioning certainty and vigor.

.......so where does Rathbun fit in? Hmmmmm. Maybe there is another category...

TB HOLY MAN: An advanced spiritual master whose ministry lovingly offers the glorious rapture of True Belief to the deserving masses. (additional scripture on "deserving" at HCOPL Free Service Free Fall)

Very well said, HelluvaHoax, I wish I'd said that. Oh the many levels of the scifaggOT delusions and hallucinations.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
There's nothing wrong with vigorous debate. take it easy.

Oh grinder good job that while I have you on ignore I can only see something from you when someone quotes your posts.

Just because someone is on XSO does not mean I have to like or respect them or agree with them.

Don't know much about XSO eh? Oh well, keep banging the rocks together.

And I was showing Rathbun and Logan the respect they deserve. the problem is that they do not deserve very much at all.

but then, they have you here to PR for them I 'spose?
 

Carmel

Crusader
Seems pretty clear Marty was the chief instigator here.
Nup, not to me it doesn't.

Geir Isene on the 16th dec:-

"Since August 7 I have talked to about 500 people about Scientology and me leaving. Some 200 of these were Scientologists still in the church. Of these about 40% have themselves brought up Marty's appearance in the SP Times or his blog as an important shaker for them."

Thus one might conclude that roughly 40% of COS members have been shaken by Marty. Note that the SP times data has been quoted far and wide.
In the USA maybe, not in Oz. But, that aside, the scn field being "shaken" isn't going to effect changes in regard to the CofS's licence to operate.

Statisticly I may be a bit skewed here because maybe not everyone is also impressed by an OT VIII ambassador very publically leaving and willing to speak to him.
This has had a great effect on scios. I've used this and Marty's stuff ......it's all food for thought for scios, and some of it helps open doors for them, for sure.

Several people have been coming onto FZ lines because of Marty's and Geirs actions. Marty can no longer handle all the people coming to him telling their troubles and so on. He's asked me for others who can help, and possibly still dosn't trust me much. I expect that will change and may have already.
I see Marty's actions in a very different light to Geir's. I don't understand why you would put the two together or think that I may do so.....I don't at all.

Again I suggest you talk to Marty and see what common interests you have, and how you can help each others goals. Or not.
Again I'll say, you might as well be telling me to rock on over to the US to say g'day to DM. Not gonna happen.

As a side note you seem to be in denial of much of the facts above re the effects Marty has had in getting people out of COS.
Well, to me, you seem to be in denial about the bigger picture.

Please don't expect me do be in "denial" about what I see and what I believe.....you'll only be disappointed. :coolwink:

Forget who said this, and reflect on what worth it may have:-

" When in doubt, communicate."
LRH didn't write nor set my bible for life, but that aside, I'm not in doubt on this one. Also, I learned years ago that there's no point in trying to sort things out with people who won't be straight with ya. It's not only a waste of time, but it can also wrap you around a pole.


Love you, like just about all here. :)
Pleased to hear it. I think you have been fooled on this one, but it hasn't affected my love for ya, matey. :)
 
It is sometimes said that Marty - and others, do whatever they do because of what they believe. That is true, as far as it goes, but IMO people have motivations which are a more basic than the beliefs that are held.

When a belief conlicts too much with one of those more basic motivations then the belief will sometimes be dropped - and that is how many exes become exes.
For example, the motivation to help others can cause a person to start believing that it is ok to hurt *some* others in order to help the majority of others. When the conflict between those two becomes too great a person will drop the belief in the "tech" which is used to follow that line. And other beliefs asscociated with it will also get reviewed. When people want to become homo-novis, they will more easily adopt beliefs related to that, because it serves their purpose.
I think I'm trying to say that believing is sometimes taken to justify what peole do, as though, a believer must have an inherently good purpose. But I am saying that I think peole believe things a little uncritically if it is helping to get what they want. It would be difficult to find the fine lines bewteen *true* belief and belief which is not fully committed deep ideas, but is someting we let ourselves buy into, because it offers to fulfill a need, and sometimes a selfish need.
I think people generally may be doing a nice little dance with this, as we go through life.
I also think some people are out and out aware of the dance that is taking place with others, and manipulate it. That involves people assuming that the manipulator him/her self is a deeply believing person. Sometimes the manipulator is a true believer, but they can also be at the other end of the thing, where they are absolute non-believers, just pulling strings - or somewhere in between.
My opinion of marty. as I observe his obvious skills in manipulation of the beliefs of others is that he is a complete non-believer, and that he knows how belief is not always fundamental to everything else, but that other human needs often use belief as a facilitator or instrument in lining things up to get what we want.
 

grinder

Patron
Oh grinder good job that while I have you on ignore I can only see something from you when someone quotes your posts.

Just because someone is on XSO does not mean I have to like or respect them or agree with them.

Don't know much about XSO eh? Oh well, keep banging the rocks together.

And I was showing Rathbun and Logan the respect they deserve. the problem is that they do not deserve very much at all.

but then, they have you here to PR for them I 'spose?

I know you ban people from xso when they say stuff that you dont like. I know you mod all posts there and dont let some thru when it doesnt agree with your views.

Yea you have a few who are not of your ilk, but mostly they toe your line.

as you say "And, as I said in my post - had it been mentioned it would not have made it as a post."

Cant ban Janis though too many love her.

You didnt answer my question, have you banned Marty and Jim?

Rocks, banging.

Now someone quote this so mick can read?
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
It is sometimes said that Marty - and others, do whatever they do because of what they believe. That is true, as far as it goes, but IMO people have motivations which are a more basic than the beliefs that are held. ----snip----- My opinion of marty as I observe his obvious skills in manipulation of the beliefs of others is that he is a complete non-believer, and that he knows how belief is not always fundamental to everything else, but that other human needs often use belief as a facilitator or instrument in lining things up to get what we want.

Very interesting post degraded being!

On reflection of what you have said, it occurred to me that what one truly BELIEVES can only be verified when tested by extremely pressurized, character-revealing events. There is no real way to know if someone is lying until then.

I believe (lol) that there have been many such events for Rathbun in his storied career both within and without CoS. The forensics are not subtle and circumstantial. It is well-beyond questionably corrupted dna samples---there are fingerprints, witnesses, video surveillance tape and his own confessions. Examples abound, but let's just take one...

What is the character and belief of a man who would purposefully destroy evidence of LM's criminal manslaughter while in the charge of Scientology practitioners? Does Rathbun really "believe" in truth, justice, freedom, human rights and even....keeping scientology working? How would it KSW if the murderous misapplication of the tech was altered and hidden under a labyrinth of lies?

I think listing more examples is another thread entirely, but let's just touch on a lighter, but nonetheless good example of what Rathbun believes....

After becoming a certified adept in the vast and powerful spiritual technology of Scientology, he ran into some stress when he blew. What did he DO? That will show what he believes. While driving a vehicle, he drank himself into a stupor with Tequila and crashed. It's not that he did not "believe" in the tech. But he believed in something much more than the tech when push came to shove. Like Hubbard railing for decades about the evil of drugs----but when feeling uncomfortable or stressed, Hubbard took a vast array of drugs with abandon. If Hubbard or Rathbun REALLY & TRULY believed in the tech, they would have used that instead.

Rathbun is a con man. He deceives. That includes himself.
 

Doom

Lurking.
Doom, sounds like a video gamer name.
Yes well I guess it does, Grinder sounds like something that you insert random pieces of meat in to, So as far as names go, I agree with you.
Our little talk about leagues? I dont know you from shit. We talking footie?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/league But this works for me
3. a class, category, or level he is not in the same league
You a grownup? or some kid?
Worse still, I just like to be a kid and enjoy my life, so when someone comes on to this board and enturbulates for reasons only known to them,
makes me wonder if marty has an OSA arm setup in his camp, which is nuts. Thats how I see your actions ATM, I have No bone to pick with Terill (I have respect for him),
Terill has Integrity and I think you could take a page out of his book and not try to ram your point of view down peoples throats.
I have a bone to pick with marty for reasons made clear in my earlier post http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=345046&postcount=32
My view of your actions is that you're happy to defend marty 'till the cows come home , but not willing to accept other valid viewpoints.
So come on chill it, I have never told Terill to shove his post up his back side; he is able to expess his point of view without attacking others.
 

Doom

Lurking.
But you missed the fact that Rathbun is a true believer. Tech trumps all other considerations.
He is not, If that was the case he would be on his A to E.

He just wants to have a little box that tech can be happy in, I doubt he gives a fuck about the church or the world except for his box. You think he wants to spend the rest of his life fighting the church? Thats what you and others want. He wants to say "pick up the cans", and then after have a bit of barbie at the beach with his lovely.
I think if he told all there wouldn't be a church left to worry him.

Cant blame him.
Have we all forgotten what marty presided over, I haven't.

If marty was just going to stay in the FreeZone then good for him.
But he will always be a threat to the CofS, so you can't really be saying for him that he is happy as it is. The CofS will never leave him alone he knows way too much.
Just leaves two broad choices, Destroy(by telling all) or coup d’état (That would be bad for the freezone).
 
can something be a major church and a cult? I say yes.

All of "mainstream" christianity fulfills the definition of a cult. However, being "mainstream", i.e. "traditional" and openly espoused by a large percentage of the general population, it is not considered "polite" (or indeed politically or socially good practice) to point out this fact. :)

So the answer is: YES. But we don't talk about that. :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I think a factor is that the dictionary definition of "cult" does not fit the bill anymore. Since more public awareness has been focused on them (they've always been around, of course, cults are nothing new( the definition has changed. Here is a good link with traits of a cult.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

Cuz you know that somewhere LRH even comments on the dictionary definition of cult and that cofS could be one, showing he had no button on that, or at least wanted people to think so.

So I would say if I go by those characteristics, then mainstream churches sometimes fit the bill and sometimes do not. Gloria's sarcasm aside, I do think it's worth discussing. Point of fact, many people have accused LDS of being a cult with the implication that it's an either/or thing. Cult or church. Well, there are cults that aren't churches and sometimes even churches that aren't cults, but the arguments against LDS sometimes strike me as laughable. I do think LDS has some real issues, those of indoctrination but that does not make it a cult. It makes it a problematic major church and religion. But it may have some cultic characteristics. Probably less than a number of churches and groups, though.
 

Veda

Sponsor
All of "mainstream" christianity fulfills the definition of a cult. However, being "mainstream", i.e. "traditional" and openly espoused by a large percentage of the general population, it is not considered "polite" (or indeed politically or socially good practice) to point out this fact. :)

So the answer is: YES. But we don't talk about that. :coolwink:

Mark A. Baker

There's "cult" and then there's "destructive cult." The Presbyterian Church down the street is not a destructive cult, Scientology is.

In the meantime, don't :coolwink: coolwink :coolwink: yourself to death.
 

Veda

Sponsor
What ever happened to the LSD (League for Spiritual Discovery) Church?

I think a factor is that the dictionary definition of "cult" does not fit the bill anymore. Since more public awareness has been focused on them (they've always been around, of course, cults are nothing new( the definition has changed. Here is a good link with traits of a cult.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

Cuz you know that somewhere LRH even comments on the dictionary definition of cult and that cofS could be one, showing he had no button on that, or at least wanted people to think so.

So I would say if I go by those characteristics, then mainstream churches sometimes fit the bill and sometimes do not. Gloria's sarcasm aside, I do think it's worth discussing. Point of fact, many people have accused LDS of being a cult with the implication that it's an either/or thing. Cult or church. Well, there are cults that aren't churches and sometimes even churches that aren't cults, but the arguments against LDS sometimes strike me as laughable. I do think LDS has some real issues, those of indoctrination but that does not make it a cult. It makes it a problematic major church and religion. But it may have some cultic characteristics. Probably less than a number of churches and groups, though.

Of course, Mormonism is a cult, but not necessarily a destructive one, although it comes close sometimes. It does have a secret doctrine, secret rituals, lies to outsiders about what it actually believes, is litigious, and its religious symbol is a registered trademark. However, it lacks other nasty qualities possessed by Scientology, which likes to position itself as a kind of 20th century equivalent of the Mormon Church for purposes of PR manipulation. Unlike Mormonism, which is goofy but not rotten at the core, Scientology is rotten at the core.

The difference between "cult" and "destructive cult" is examined in the full text of 'Destructive Cult Defined, and the Gradients of Deception: the Layers of the Scientological Onion', in the 2nd and 3rd editions of 'Messiah or Madman?'

http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105
 

nozeno

Gold Meritorious Patron
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