Fool on the Hill
can something be a major church and a cult? I say yes.
But you missed the fact that Rathbun is a true believer. Tech trumps all other considerations. ---snip---
True Believer ("TB") is a fascinating category, which Rathbun appears to fall into. But, perhaps within that designation there are different levels of indoctrination....
TB LIGHT TRANCE: Moves with the herd but can easily be distracted or wander off.
TB MESMERIZED: Excited with imaginary realities while in close proximity to other True Believers. Able to self-sustain and superimpose delusional thoughts of paradise over normal human existence for extended periods.
TB SOMNAMBULIST: Full hallucinogenic sleep-walking auto-pilot, carrying out remote controlled scriptural mandates with unquestioning certainty and vigor.
.......so where does Rathbun fit in? Hmmmmm. Maybe there is another category...
TB HOLY MAN: An advanced spiritual master whose ministry lovingly offers the glorious rapture of True Belief to the deserving masses. (additional scripture on "deserving" at HCOPL Free Service Free Fall)
There's nothing wrong with vigorous debate. take it easy.
Nup, not to me it doesn't.Seems pretty clear Marty was the chief instigator here.
In the USA maybe, not in Oz. But, that aside, the scn field being "shaken" isn't going to effect changes in regard to the CofS's licence to operate.Geir Isene on the 16th dec:-
"Since August 7 I have talked to about 500 people about Scientology and me leaving. Some 200 of these were Scientologists still in the church. Of these about 40% have themselves brought up Marty's appearance in the SP Times or his blog as an important shaker for them."
Thus one might conclude that roughly 40% of COS members have been shaken by Marty. Note that the SP times data has been quoted far and wide.
This has had a great effect on scios. I've used this and Marty's stuff ......it's all food for thought for scios, and some of it helps open doors for them, for sure.Statisticly I may be a bit skewed here because maybe not everyone is also impressed by an OT VIII ambassador very publically leaving and willing to speak to him.
I see Marty's actions in a very different light to Geir's. I don't understand why you would put the two together or think that I may do so.....I don't at all.Several people have been coming onto FZ lines because of Marty's and Geirs actions. Marty can no longer handle all the people coming to him telling their troubles and so on. He's asked me for others who can help, and possibly still dosn't trust me much. I expect that will change and may have already.
Again I'll say, you might as well be telling me to rock on over to the US to say g'day to DM. Not gonna happen.Again I suggest you talk to Marty and see what common interests you have, and how you can help each others goals. Or not.
Well, to me, you seem to be in denial about the bigger picture.As a side note you seem to be in denial of much of the facts above re the effects Marty has had in getting people out of COS.
LRH didn't write nor set my bible for life, but that aside, I'm not in doubt on this one. Also, I learned years ago that there's no point in trying to sort things out with people who won't be straight with ya. It's not only a waste of time, but it can also wrap you around a pole.Forget who said this, and reflect on what worth it may have:-
" When in doubt, communicate."
Pleased to hear it. I think you have been fooled on this one, but it hasn't affected my love for ya, matey.Love you, like just about all here.
Oh grinder good job that while I have you on ignore I can only see something from you when someone quotes your posts.
Just because someone is on XSO does not mean I have to like or respect them or agree with them.
Don't know much about XSO eh? Oh well, keep banging the rocks together.
And I was showing Rathbun and Logan the respect they deserve. the problem is that they do not deserve very much at all.
but then, they have you here to PR for them I 'spose?
It is sometimes said that Marty - and others, do whatever they do because of what they believe. That is true, as far as it goes, but IMO people have motivations which are a more basic than the beliefs that are held. ----snip----- My opinion of marty as I observe his obvious skills in manipulation of the beliefs of others is that he is a complete non-believer, and that he knows how belief is not always fundamental to everything else, but that other human needs often use belief as a facilitator or instrument in lining things up to get what we want.
Yes well I guess it does, Grinder sounds like something that you insert random pieces of meat in to, So as far as names go, I agree with you.Doom, sounds like a video gamer name.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/league But this works for meOur little talk about leagues? I dont know you from shit. We talking footie?
3. a class, category, or level he is not in the same league
Worse still, I just like to be a kid and enjoy my life, so when someone comes on to this board and enturbulates for reasons only known to them,You a grownup? or some kid?
He is not, If that was the case he would be on his A to E.But you missed the fact that Rathbun is a true believer. Tech trumps all other considerations.
I think if he told all there wouldn't be a church left to worry him.He just wants to have a little box that tech can be happy in, I doubt he gives a fuck about the church or the world except for his box. You think he wants to spend the rest of his life fighting the church? Thats what you and others want. He wants to say "pick up the cans", and then after have a bit of barbie at the beach with his lovely.
Have we all forgotten what marty presided over, I haven't.Cant blame him.
can something be a major church and a cult? I say yes.
All of "mainstream" christianity fulfills the definition of a cult. However, being "mainstream", i.e. "traditional" and openly espoused by a large percentage of the general population, it is not considered "polite" (or indeed politically or socially good practice) to point out this fact.
So the answer is: YES. But we don't talk about that.
Mark A. Baker
I think a factor is that the dictionary definition of "cult" does not fit the bill anymore. Since more public awareness has been focused on them (they've always been around, of course, cults are nothing new( the definition has changed. Here is a good link with traits of a cult.
Cuz you know that somewhere LRH even comments on the dictionary definition of cult and that cofS could be one, showing he had no button on that, or at least wanted people to think so.
So I would say if I go by those characteristics, then mainstream churches sometimes fit the bill and sometimes do not. Gloria's sarcasm aside, I do think it's worth discussing. Point of fact, many people have accused LDS of being a cult with the implication that it's an either/or thing. Cult or church. Well, there are cults that aren't churches and sometimes even churches that aren't cults, but the arguments against LDS sometimes strike me as laughable. I do think LDS has some real issues, those of indoctrination but that does not make it a cult. It makes it a problematic major church and religion. But it may have some cultic characteristics. Probably less than a number of churches and groups, though.