Marty Rathbun

[Zinjifar]

Whatever; somebody evidently invested quite a bit of work into setting it up. Why Salt Lake City? Who knows.

Maybe it's Marty being 'pan-determined'

Zinj

 

[Axiom142]

Hey Ax, thanks for elaborating, and thanks for your support, matey.

I've already said where I'm at on Marty and why, so I'll try not to repeat it, but there's something you've said here that I'm curious about how you can *overlook*.

Carmel, I didn’t overlook it, I just didn’t bother posting it in my first message as I knew it would be interpreted as indicating that Marty was arrogant. I didn’t think this would be fair as I didn’t find him to be arrogant at all. We clearly don’t have the same views on a variety of things, but we were able to have a perfectly friendly and productive conversation.

More effective? Like what? Wasn't what we got one of the most effective "one off" hits we've seen?

We've had hundreds of different media articles (radio, tv, and the papers, including all the mainstream ones) since Xen did his speech in Parliament. We also have other pollies (State and Federal) picking up on various aspects of the CofS operations and running with it themselves. We have the State and Federal Police investigating actual crimes now. We have had hundreds of former scios coming out of the woodwork giving specific information on crimes which we weren't previously aware happened in Oz.

You don’t need to convince me Carmel! I was so excited when I saw what you all had done in Oz, I spent most of the afternoon running around the house in my underpants, doing my impression of Thomas the Tank Engine. Woo hoo, woo hoo!

Clearly this has had a phenomenal effect in terms of the media exposure and galvanising action against the abuses of the CoS. I have no doubt that this marks a watershed in the fight against the cult. And I think that Marty will come to see this as well.

…

It clearly demonstrated that he has an agenda other than what he states, and one which is quite different to yours or mine. Don't be fooled by the PR hat which he whacked straight back on after his blunder.

I have never assumed that he had the same agenda as I have. But I don’t really care. He is doing his thing and I will do mine. He provides a rallying point for Scientologists who still believe in the Tech but know that something is very wrong in their ‘church’. This is a good thing as far as I am concerned. And he is attracting a lot of attention from the CoS, using up their resources and taking the heat away from others and making it easier for them to do their ‘thing’.

I am not Marty’s spokesperson, he is perfectly capable of speaking for himself. If anyone wants to communicate with him, he can be reached via his Blog. But please bear in mind that you are much more likely to get a civil response if you are civil to start with.

Axiom142

 

[Axiom142]

Seems rather odd that some do not seem to get the Top 10 "C's" of Rathbunology. This is not made up, it's just his track record. Examples abound for each, by court records, reliable witnesses and his own admissions....

Contradictory
Corrupt
Cunning
Clandestine
Cheating
Criminal
Concealment
CoverUps
Covertness
Con Artist

Now, he is suddenly a spiritual leader?

Despite his constant bragging, his competence is deeply flawed. Like the CoS that brags about its own Pyrrhic "victories", Rathbun has a tornado of contradictions and controversy swirling around him. If he were 2.5% as good as he thinks he is, he would be admired and accepted by critics, anon and others. It would be God-awful simple if he REALLY wanted to "help" as he states.

It would only require simple TRANSPARENCY and the OFFER OF HELP to demonstrate who he is and what he is trying to do.

Rather than bitterly complain that his help was not solicited, he would have already provided help in the form of:

*** A full and complete detailed affadavit that listed out the principal crimes, deceptions and lies that he has first-hand knowledge of regarding Scientology, CoS, Hubbard, COB et al.

*** When asked about anything he would simply answer with the truth rather than convoluted, indecipherable double-talk.

He would offer ALL THAT HE KNOWS because it is of no help or value to hide it. That is Hubbard's game to hide things and make others "reach". Mystery sandwich and other inedible atrocities.

And the mere fact that there is a wake of upset people everywhere he goes (besides the "loyal officers" who haven't got a clue) it is not hard to understand the reason. He continues to hide and plot and coverup. He plays "art of war" games with an arrogant sense of entitlement. He thinks he can lead human beings to higher states.

It's a very old game and he is a very 3rd rate messiah in a 3rd rate con game that has already been exposed.

HH,

To be fair, I don’t think that Rathbun is touting himself as a spiritual leader. And I don’t think that he has tried to hide the things that he did which were very wrong. I believe that he is trying to make up for the damage that he did while he was in the CoS and this trip to the UK is part of that.

What else can he do? If I had stayed in the Sea Org instead of leaving 22 years ago, perhaps I would have ended up doing just as many terrible things? I’d like to think that if that were the case, I would be able to make amends for that and earn some measure of forgiveness.

I never said that he complained bitterly about his help not being solicited, I said that I thought he was frustrated. I actually disagree with him on the issue of what is happening in Oz, but I also do see his point of view.

How do you know that he hasn’t provided an affidavit? I’m pretty sure that he is engaged in activities that are aimed at bringing the CoS to account for crimes and wrongdoings. But for obvious reasons these cannot be described at this time. These actions may take considerable time to come to fruition and have to be done properly. Simply going to the FBI etc with lurid (but factual) claims of abuses and crimes simply won’t work. This has happened before, but because they weren’t well thought out, they failed and just made the authorities more unwilling to take action against the CoS in the future.

As I said, I’m not Marty’s spokesperson or even his defender, but I am willing to give him a chance to show what he can do.

Axiom142

 

[Isene]

My personal statistics on Marty from Scientologists still in the church

Since August 7 I have talked to about 500 people about Scientology and me leaving. Some 200 of these were Scientologists still in the church. Of these about 40% have themselves brought up Marty's appearance in the SP Times or his blog as an important shaker for them.

 

[anon2487]

EDIT: Sorry Geir, I was typing this when you made your post. But yeah, I've little doubt that Marty's had a significant impact, and suspect that that will only increase.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Marty is fond of quoting Martin Luther King and others, I thought I'd throw the following quote in, because (for me at least,) it sums up the crux of the problem:

“Cowardice asks the question, ‘Is it safe?’ Expediency asks the question, ‘Is it politic?’ Vanity asks the question, ‘Is it popular? But, conscience asks the question, ‘Is it right?’ And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular but one must take it because one’s conscience tells one that it is right.”—Martin Luther King, Jr.

I'm not someone to sit in judgement over others - quite apart from anything else, I've done things that I seriously regret in my life - and if I believed that he was a sincere guy, doing what he's doing due to conscience and personal integrity, I'd absolutely support him.

But I don't. Pretty much all of his actions, past and more importantly present, simply point to him being a cowardly opportunist with few scruples.

Yes he's an extremely capable, personable, intelligent and canny guy; and yes Scientology will continue in one shape or another. But as changes are going to have to be made, knowing that the person leading the charge and steering Scientology towards change, is standing up because they believe that some things are just plain wrong, is a very different to someone who appears to be steered by expediency, necessity and all the rest of it.

Having said that, I do think that whatever shape the "takeover" takes - be it a strong independent field that slowly absorbs current CofS staff, SO and public, or an actual legal transfer of control a long way down the road - based on everything I've read, I'm extremely certain that the changes that will occur will be significant, even with "good 'ol Marty" at the helm.

The things that support this are both comments he's made, and many of the articles on www.scientology-cult.com. Particularly some of the more recent ones.

There already seems to be a strong consensus that the RPF, forced disconnection, and the clunky administrative policies and structures have to go; and there are an increasing number of other things being mooted now too. As it was brought up earlier, a recent example being the whole deal with Xenu, where they're using Hubbard's (non confidential) "Revolt in the Stars" text, as a way of allowing public to be aware of the story, whilst keeping the auditing level itself separate. These are all good things IMO.

On a negative note, the fact that he's already spitting out PR blandishments, and as failmeansfail pointed out, supporting some fairly disturbing attitudes even at this early stage, definitely gives you pause for thought.

On the other hand, that people like Jason Beghe, who seems nothing if not a straight shooter and Geir Isene appear to be supporting him, does give me some hope that he's not just surrounded by sycophants and yes men. But Scientologists need to excise ALL of the criminality and abuse, not just "a good deal of it," and not just because I or anyone else thinks they need to. If they want the subject to have any chance of surviving meaningfully, it's essential.

Time will tell I guess.

 

[anon2487]

SNIPPED.

 

[Zinjifar]

There won't be any 'takeover' of Scn, because there's no mechanism to do so. The 'power' in Scientology is based on the control of the finances and, most of them are hidden. Scientology is not a normal 'corporation'; it has no stockholders and no elected 'officers'. It's a sheer covert 'hidden data/finance line' totalitarian nut cult because that's what Ron wanted.

Davey got control by 'gaming' the system and 'gaming' Ron and Ron allowed it because he wasn't fit to run a boy scout troop.

Ron deliberately centralized all power into one person, Himself, and then was too meshuggine to actually run things, so He let Davey weasel his way in.

Marty knows that. Marty has gone to great lengths to scoff at the idea that he plans a 'takeover', and, for once, I even believe him.

All *Marty* wants is to avoid the kind of public scrutiny that would inevitably result in criminal prosecution, which is why he's sanitized his own blog to stop discussion of 'putting miscavige in jail'. What Marty claims to want is for people to *ignore* David Miscavige. Which, unsurprisingly, is also what *Davey* wants.

Any 'takeover' or 'reform' would be sheer sham.

Zinj

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
We clearly don’t have the same views on a variety of things, but we were able to have a perfectly friendly and productive conversation.

True, Ax, but we also share the same views on a variety of things.

You don’t need to convince me Carmel! I was so excited when I saw what you all had done in Oz, I spent most of the afternoon running around the house in my underpants, doing my impression of Thomas the Tank Engine. Woo hoo, woo hoo!

Wish I was privy to that one!

I am not Marty’s spokesperson, he is perfectly capable of speaking for himself. <snip>

Yeah, I think I've got it, Ax, on this, and your whole post. As you said, we don't share the same views on everything, and on the Marty issue, well, we've pretty well thrashed that one out.

Anyways matey, despite our differences on this issue, I know for sure that you and I are in the same "camp", and that's all good.

 

[Carmel]

Since August 7 I have talked to about 500 people about Scientology and me leaving. Some 200 of these were Scientologists still in the church. Of these about 40% have themselves brought up Marty's appearance in the SP Times or his blog as an important shaker for them.

No doubt. It's been something we've used as a "shaker" for many "still ins", here in Oz. As I've said before, I've been thankful for the St Pete's Times articles and vids, 'cause for many, they've helped get that penny to start to drop.....We don't want that penny getting stuck on a ledge near the top though.

 

[anon2487]

There won't be any 'takeover' of Scn, because there's no mechanism to do so...

If you read what I wrote, I described two different possibilities. I also put the word takeover in "".

I disagree that it can't be done. There are various means by which an effective "takeover" could be achieved. But it's all very speculative, so I don't really see the point in talking about it to any great degree.

Whatever happens, it's likely to be a fair old way down the road.

All *Marty* wants is to avoid the kind of public scrutiny that would inevitably result in criminal prosecution, which is why he's sanitized his own blog to stop discussion of 'putting miscavige in jail'. What Marty claims to want is for people to *ignore* David Miscavige. Which, unsurprisingly, is also what *Davey* wants.

I agree with you on this. Based on a number of comments that he, and people close to him have made, I can only see one very specific situation that he'd cause DM to be criminally prosecuted.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

HH,To be fair, I don’t think that Rathbun is touting himself as a spiritual leader. And I don’t think that he has tried to hide the things that he did which were very wrong. I believe that he is trying to make up for the damage that he did while he was in the CoS and this trip to the UK is part of that. What else can he do? If I had stayed in the Sea Org instead of leaving 22 years ago, perhaps I would have ended up doing just as many terrible things? I’d like to think that if that were the case, I would be able to make amends for that and earn some measure of forgiveness.I never said that he complained bitterly about his help not being solicited, I said that I thought he was frustrated. I actually disagree with him on the issue of what is happening in Oz, but I also do see his point of view.How do you know that he hasn’t provided an affidavit? I’m pretty sure that he is engaged in activities that are aimed at bringing the CoS to account for crimes and wrongdoings. But for obvious reasons these cannot be described at this time. These actions may take considerable time to come to fruition and have to be done properly. Simply going to the FBI etc with lurid (but factual) claims of abuses and crimes simply won’t work. This has happened before, but because they weren’t well thought out, they failed and just made the authorities more unwilling to take action against the CoS in the future.As I said, I’m not Marty’s spokesperson or even his defender, but I am willing to give him a chance to show what he can do.Axiom142

Hey Ax!

Thanks for the detailed and reasoned response! Some clarifications:

SPIRITUAL LEADER: He may not have officially posted himself as such, but the way he stands in front of the light source (hubbard/scn) causes the shadows he casts. So, it is pretty safe to conclude that it's not an accident/coincidence that people regard him as such. (By way of example, I noticed that nobody is emailing me with praise about leading the new on-source Independent Bridge. )

MAKING UP THE DAMAGE: Whatever he does is fine with me. I don't ask, require or expect him to make up any damage. Only be honest now. The concept of atonement for sins is a religious belief that I do not subscribe to. That is a control mechanism that I despise and would never want run on me (so I left Scn) and which I would never try to impose on another person. But, I would expect them to act honestly & transparently now--or I would not trust them. That is my only point.

SEA ORG: Yup, there but for the grace of God..... If I had stayed in the S.O. I think I could have been a professional SP too. Glad that you and I are dilettantes!

AFFADAVIT: Maybe he has/is producing incriminating evidence, who knows. That's the point, who knows. Imagine, if you will that a member of the Nazi Party at the end of WW II surrendered to the Allies. There was a several year period (after the unconditional surrender of Germany) that many do not know about where guerrilla nazis roamed the countryside and committed an unending stream of assassinations, terroristic bombings and other atrocities. They called themselves the "Werewolves" and were continuing to fight the war. So.....what if our surrendering Nazi knew all about the "Werewolves" but only told bits and pieces. He then would have blood on his hands for every murder the Werewolves committed. That is what I think of Rathbun. He has told some spicy and valuable things about CoS and DM. But he is leveraging the bulk of what he knows for his personal advantage without consideration of the continuing CoS human rights violations and other crimes. What's the big secret? What would prevent any rational man of good will from spilling what he knows? That's the problem---it has become convoluted into much speculation, meaning that Rathbun continues to spin webs of intrigue and confusion for others. What would happen if the world was simple? Rathbun would simply speak or write what he knows to put an end to the insanity created by Hubbard, CoS, DM and himself. But, he is very careful not to do that. So, I don't trust him, regardless of what he says. Better to watch what he does.

RATHBUN'S CONTRIBUTION: Yeah, the whistleblowing part of what he has done so far is very cool and I am happy to see it. Be even cooler if he gave the entire blueprint of the "werewolves" that are still actively haunting the planet with CoS and their criminal past and present activities.

Ax, I am not very inclined to worry about the "religious freedom" that Marty or other true believer KSW Scientologists are crusading for. I have witnessed how that religion uses its power, money and trust and....I see a vast and endless wake of human suffering and betrayals. So, I might not give Rathbun the religious revivalist any karmic credits for that work the way others do.

Maybe it makes my assessment of him rather sharp and intolerant. That's good. Wish I had started thinking with such rationality and morality a long, long time ago.

I know you and I agree on virtually all of the most important actions being taken vs CoS et al. So, cheers my friend, let's continue to expose the truth in our own ways!
Best To Ya! HH

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Zinj's comment

Uhhh...no takeover of "Scn" (meaning CofS in this context) because there's no mechanism to do so? Surely you jest. CofS was taken over before and it can happen again. Whether it will or not is another question.

Jesus Christ where the hell is the LOGIC?

 

[OHTEEATE]

Marty and Mike

When I saw the picture of Marty and Mike outside the London Org, i knew it was going to give DM bad dreams, and a compulsion to find out exactly what they are up to. That was entertainment value enough for me. I believe Marty and Mike are smarter than many give them credit for. I also think when the time is right, all will be revelaed. Patience is very hard, but the longer I am out, the more patient I have become. I believe a really effective move requires work, allies, and preparation in secret. When 'it' happens, you will understand why they had to wait, is my guess.

 

[Zinjifar]

Patience requires trust.

In the case of Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder I would consider anything even resembling 'trust' to be misplaced.

Benefit of the doubt doesn't apply to people hiding their hands behind their backs, considering their history.

At a *minimum* they have their fingers crossed.

Zinj

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Anything that pisses DM off is a good thing.

The problem with some people here is that they think in black and white. M and M have to be all good or all bad.

Grow up, people! Life isn't like that. People aren't like that.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

When I saw the picture of Marty and Mike outside the London Org, i knew it was going to give DM bad dreams, and a compulsion to find out exactly what they are up to. That was entertainment value enough for me. I believe Marty and Mike are smarter than many give them credit for. I also think when the time is right, all will be revelaed. Patience is very hard, but the longer I am out, the more patient I have become. I believe a really effective move requires work, allies, and preparation in secret. When 'it' happens, you will understand why they had to wait, is my guess.

Hey OHTEEATE, I had to stop and really think about what you said on the subject of "patience".

I think you are right that "patience" is a vital ingredient to many strategic plans and determinations... but there are certain exceptions to the rule.

One unfortunate exception is when the party requiring "patience" has exhausted all of their "patience credits" and still wishes to borrow more without hope of repayment.

That's a bad loan to give to Marty or CoS. They are morally bankrupt and never deliver what they promise.

 

[Terril park]

So when a FZer like Terril says one shouldn't beat the Xenu drum, is he saying it for good tactical reasons like Carmel has or is he saying it because he and his FZ buddies need Xenu just as much as the cult church? Without belief in Xenu the FZ and Ron's Ogres wouldn't have an Upper Bridge and the possible income it generates and even if they don't make income from Xenu, they wouldn't have a rerason for the FZ existence or for their beliefs in the Upper Bridge.

I've often commented that I and others don't believe the Xenu story, but had good gains from doing what OT 2&3 said on the can.

These levels are among the cheapest to do in the FZ, as its done S.O.L.O.
ie you don't have to pay an auditor.

So one can't handle areas of difficulty re communication on grade 0
without referring to Xenu?

Nonsense!

 

[Zinjifar]

If there's no Xenu, we don't need a 'Church' of Scientology or a 'Scientology Movement' and we don't need to 'Clear the Planet'.

If there's no Xenu, then there's no intergalactic, transtemporal plot to 'suppress' our godlike powers.

If there's no Xenu, then 'Source' lied.

Zinj

 

[Div6]

marcusbrutusrathbun.com?

Interesting that they are positioning Marty as some one who opposed a self-appointed dictator. "Sic Semper Tryannis" is even the state Motto of Viriginia.

LOL. How cute....

 

[Terril park]

Anyways matey, despite our differences on this issue, I know for sure that you and I are in the same "camp", and that's all good.

Again Ax says it better than me.

Kudos on your magnificent efforts in Oz.

However , " What happens in Oz, stays in Oz." to paraphrase a saying.

The US lawsuits where DM and RTC are charged with Human trafficking
will probably be the most important events. I believe Marty will be a witness here.

You want abuse to end, best I can see that can only start with DM
jailed or fled or whatever alternative.

Tackling COS especially legally has historically been a VERY difficult task.
They still survive.

Co-operation from those interested is recomended.