Marty says steer clear of Debbie Cook

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Good points although to be picayune, the church/OSA can even set up a persona with a fake SP Declare. In addition (and I don't know how it happens, really) there are people who have spoken out that they haven't quite gotten around to declaring yet. Anyway, though, your point is well taken.

Leaving has to be a very personal decision. It's nice to have people on the outside, to help when one leaves, but unless people are pretty firm on what they, themselves, have observed regardless of the observations of a Debbie Cook, Marty Rathbun, et al, and have decided no matter what that they will not contribute to that anymore, then they are susceptible to being yanked back in the fold.

In my opinion, one has to be willing to be found out and not care. That's just my opinion. It takes a lot to leave so one better be strong in one's convictions. The very need of a leader is indicative of not having made the transition from cultie to sovereign being.

Excellent point. :thumbsup:

The secret is, though, that for the vast majority of people, the cult doesn't come after them.

It was a revelation to me to realize, after hearing many people's stories, that Scientology has no come-back if you stand up and resist, ie just start saying "NO" -- even if you're in the RPF. It'll hurt for a while when they try the push-back, but ultimately they can find nothing in their arsenal to counter a straightforward NO.


^^^This^^^
 

Good twin

Floater
Yes the cult is much like the vampire. You have to invite him to drink your blood leaving you with the same fate as his. As horrible as it is, it is still strangely seductive.

Do you suppose someday there will be creepy sexy stories about the emotional conflicts we experienced? :hmm: Naw. I doubt it. :no:
 

jenni with an eye

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Second Hand Evidence

It was a revelation to me to realize, after hearing many people's stories, that Scientology has no come-back if you stand up and resist, ie just start saying "NO" -- even if you're in the RPF. It'll hurt for a while when they try the push-back, but ultimately they can find nothing in their arsenal to counter a straightforward NO.

:thumbsup:

"NO" worked for me each & every time.

It became my favourite word...still is...:biggrin:
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Do you suppose someday there will be creepy sexy stories about the emotional conflicts we experienced? :hmm: Naw. I doubt it. :no:

The "Ex-CofS" genre? Like TV shows and movies for the general public with either re-enactments or fictional representations of Life in the Cult? That's an interesting idea. There's certainly enough story material without having to resort to any fiction whatsoever, not that non-exes would believe it wasn't over-the-top fiction.

But I like the idea of it being a whole *genre* and not just some isolated books or documentaries.

Paul
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Wingnuts

Yes, I consider my bridges with Herr Rinder and Rathburn to be well burned. I did hope to rekindle some freindships with former fellow comrades who now sail under Marty's Independent flag, it depends on their grapevine and on whether they are enforcing internal ethics policies, I hope some do stay in touch, but no breath holding going on at this end.

No, Pete, I spent an evening and a prolonged breakfast with a group of these independent scientologists, and four on the fence scientologists. I was not out to gather 'intelligence' just to, well, catch with old friends. Immediatly after making the slip, the person tried to back peddle and got very flustered, had they not done that I might not have taken any notice, but that underlined that there was a 'confidential' program in train.

It was not the information that I found astounding or even particularly interesting, I kind of took it as read that there was a plan or dream or sorts in the offing. What was astounding was being, for the first time in five years, with a group of people talking and thinking in Scientology speak and think. That was a most disconcerting and frankly, troubling experience. I felt blood vessels in my brain rupture.

One fellow, a still in, tried to run a coffee shop process on me to find my ARC X with the tech. Pedrofcuk of Dublin Anon and protest fame was with me and he was as freaked out as I was with regard to their behaviour. It has taken some reflection to process what we experienced.

The encounter brought home to me just how far gone from the real world these people are, they speak gobbeldy gook. They cannot see or even perceive the world around them, so deeply are they lost in the Hubbard faux reality.

I watched them, I like watching people, it is a little hobby of mine. When these people, all former SO, weren’t jabbering on in gap-less compulsive communication about how creepy and weird the freezone people are, what they are going to do once they get St. Hill back and who they were in their past lives, they stared into the half distance. Cogs spinning in their heads: trying process what had happened to them and what they were doing to themselves.

I was astounded watching them chain smoke, their manic restless moves, fixed and forced (pardon the language) up-tone 'beingnesses'. Blinkless eyes. If you met a person acting like that you would assume mental illness, when you meet and interact with a group of people in this mode, it is a bit creepy. It is mental illness. That is what I found frightening, Hubbard created a system that is in use daily in the civilized world, that induces mental illness on an industrial scale. And I was like that, just a few short years ago. I shudder.

Sorry Petey, I went off the point. The info garnered is what I garnered, it is fairly obvious that they do have a plan of sorts, these people are working in some kind of a co-ordinated fashion. I don't know, or really care, what degree of wishful thinking is involved, but they, being scientologists, are utterly convinced of the rightness of their plan. What I found genuinely chilling was that these people were out yet 100 percent 'in', there had been no diminishing of the conditioning, no reflection, no self examination. They were still Sea Org Members, still on mission.

There are some brilliant posts on this thread, and this is one. You paint such a wonderful word picture John I felt I was there, a fly on the wall.

Marty posted this last night my time but I was too tired to post it in the appropriate place. This may be it.

Denialism
Posted on January 21, 2012 by martyrathbun09

In my view, what we are dealing with for the most part with corporate scientologists is denialism. I came across a very clear description of the phenomenon in a book by Michael Specter, Denialism, Penguin Books 2009:

We have all been in denial at some point in our lives; faced with truths too painful to accept, rejection often seems the only way to cope. Under those circumstances, facts, no matter how detailed or irrefutable, rarely make a difference. Denialism is denial writ large — when an entire segment of society, often struggling with the trauma of change, turns away from reality in favor of a more comfortable lie…

…Unless data fits neatly into an already formed theory, a denialist doesn’t really see it as data at all. That enables him to dismiss even the most compelling evidence as just another point of view.

It helps to understand the phenomena all of us have run up against – the shock of old friends and associates acting deaf, dumb and blind to hard, cold, documented facts. No need to fret about it when as you can see it is a phenomena so common that popular thinkers are writing about its prevalence in society at large.

Specter goes on to describe how in an ever increasingly complicated world with steadily declining educational standards, people are desperate for easy answers. The not-so-bright desire big labels that can easily ‘explain’ complexities that they don’t have the confront, or discipline or inclination to investigate and evaluate for themselves.

Denialism can lead to extremism, a subject well-treated with respect to current American politics in Wingnuts: How the Lunatic Fringe is Hijacking America, by John Avlon, Beast Books 2010. Avlon writes that:

Wingnuts [defined as extremists to the far right or left] offer their fellow travelers the false comfort of rigid certainty in a changing world — dividing our country into good versus evil, us against them. Fundamentalism has a powerful appeal for people who feel powerless, especially when it gets dressed up as ideology or attaches itself to a party label.

But when you pull the curtain back on Wingnut politics, behind the all-or-nothing demands, apocalyptic warnings and the addicition to self righteous anger, you’ll see that fear is the motivating factor: fear of the other; fear wrapped up in the American flag; fear calling itself freedom.

I’m just sharing some food for thought. I think the parallels to the Scientology world are apparent. I think we can learn some lessons by understanding denialism and extremism or fundamentalism. They are isms that are systematically inculcated in corporate Scientology. I think it behooves us to recognize remnants of them in ourselves so that they are not perpetuated. I think it also helps to understand that when you are aggressively confronted with this mind set by corporate scientologists, you recognize that you are looking square in the eyes of fear. Something worth remembering given the tactics of aggression and threat corporate scientologists have become adept at covering their fear with.
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/

So he supplies the perfect word - "wingnuts". And IMO a perfect example of projection. :biggrin:
 

Petey C

Silver Meritorious Patron
…Unless data fits neatly into an already formed theory, a denialist doesn’t really see it as data at all. That enables him to dismiss even the most compelling evidence as just another point of view.

Oh SPEW! (Or do I mean, "SP You!) I'm sure Marty isn't speaking about hisself.

The SS Posse doesn't want to have to "make peace" with a "New Regime" as part of "reconstruction" of the "reformed 'Church'"; they want to ride through the cheering throngs in streets of Havana in a Jeep, headed to El Presidente's Palace like Fidel. As I've said before, I honestly think Marty sees himself as "The Lieutenant" in El Ron's "Final Blackout".

Face, you crack me up. But what you say has a horrible ring of truth to it.

The encounter brought home to me just how far gone from the real world these people are, they speak gobbeldy gook. They cannot see or even perceive the world around them, so deeply are they lost in the Hubbard faux reality.

John Anch, you speak sooth. What you describe is chilling.
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
A suspicion I have, Mighty Marteh is scared shitless of Debbie.
Why? My supposition is simple.
Think of it this way~ A contender for the throne who has no use for independants and their ilk suddenly arises within the cult to bring things into line, and quite possibly takes things over in a coupe:neener:, leaving all the indy's just as much in the left-field as before, no Lron golds, and still shunned :hissyfit:.
It must terrify the silly shit senseless to see any hope of getting his greedy little mittens on any of the hoarded wealth, and still be branded an SP Squirrel (-fucker), with little hope of redemption from any new management. :selfish:
Of course Marteh will attempt to align his worthiness with 'new management', but hey, we all know (or most do/should)~ "Meet the new boss, same as the the old boss............snip......We don't get fooled again!" :nazi:
He and his sycophantic natterers and ass-kissers will just have to Pahteh-wit-Mateh until the reach some common sense (and run for their lives), ergo hint~ none of it makes any sense.:itstrue:
Its a frikken con-job, all of it. :censored:
An ego driven tool of self delusion with so many ugly sides I am surprised so many still cling with hope of something really good coming out of it.:noevil:

Thank you Mr. Hubbard for creating such a twisted and demented monster!:clapping:
May your eternity in the hells you've created bring you all the rewards you so richly deserve.:hotwater:
Hmmm, I think I know why you weren't buried in the ground! Its because there ain't a cemetary big enough to accomodate the crowd that'd be lined up pissing on your pathetic grave.:bullshit: :scnsucks: :bullshit:
Speak ill of the dead you say? Fucking rights, and my right too! :yes:
Fuck you LRon! and the whore you rode in on! ~ :puke2:

Kk, mini-rant over, and man that felt sooo good (try it sometime)~ Ahhhhhhhhhhh, a very satifying smilie fix too it was! :dance3:

Now back to our regularly scheduled what-ever the heck it was......

:) :party: hey its Saturday night!

:cheers:
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Hi John Anchovie,

SO happy to have you here on exScn with me and so many others who are fully out. Your observations are terrific. Thanks for all the information.

I thought Marty had a plan to take over corporate Scn when he recently mentioned on his Board that he is still listed as a legal corporate member of RTC. You've confirmed my thoughts on this.

Jesse Prince mentioned what a power shit-fight it was the last time around, when Hubbard died. Can you imagine how it is now that DM has had over two decades to legally and physically armor himself? Marty and co are living in la la land thinking they are going to move in and take over. Delusions of grandeur have always been part of Scn. Marty was clueless that Debbie was gearing up for action, so he hasn't infiltrated very deeply, has he?

But telling stories of grand things like taking over billion dollar corporations and putting your friends in charge is a Hubbardian device that Marty learned very well. Some people will always be followers. It is their nature. Marty lives off their admiration and keeps feeding their dreams and as long as he does so, it really doesn't matter that his plan is ridiculous, he still gets to be a cult leader with fools sucking up to his every word. He's got a good deal.

My most difficult challenge after Scn has been reconciling that there was some good in it. The hardest thing I've done has been coming back to my Scn past two years ago here on exscn. I left it behind for as long as I could, as many others have done. It was crazy stuff, still is.

But it promoted positive thinking. It promoted using your abilities to their fullest. The problem is, it robbed me of all independence and rights to my life, actions, thinking processes, earned money, and production - and by so doing, stole years from my life.

To keep the positive thinking and believing in self while remaining truly independent in thought and life, to reincorporate these things in my life as my own identity has been my focus. Because there is no other choice.

I cannot hate my experience in Scn. Mainly because hate does not allow me to move on.


Yes, Scn is an addiction. As you said, it causes mental illness - specifically, dissociation. Its founder was a chronic story teller, liar, braggart, megalomaniac and selfish, power-hungry, admiration-craving, paranoid thief because he was dissociated. I don't believe Hubbard intended to cause the dissociation in others. Its the end-result of listening and following every word of a madman so that one thinks like him and thereby becomes just as mad.

For me the experience was different in that the "positive thinking" that scientology seems to promote was in fact a delusional persona (as Face talks about) with not a lot of basis in reality. The apparent self esteem came from thinking I was something I was not and was about the hardest thing to recover from. Falling from the position of apparently (or trying to be) "being cause" in all aspects of life, as much as one is able, leads to facing a reality that most normal people have a sort of handle on - finding the balance between "cause" and "effect".

I remember one day day being ordered to give out fliers as there was some stat emergency. For a GO member to do that was the pits and on top of it I was very pregnant and it was blazingly hot. I walked up Russell Street, took a deep breath and thought "I am a Sea Org Member [on leave this life] and I know things you don't". And proceeded to give out those leaflets with confidence, no matter the health concerns to myself and baby. I shudder to remember that... the false postiveness and blindness. I really believed it at the time.

No I don't have a problem with working out if there was any good in scientology. Looking back there was just delusions and mind traps designed to make you think you were basically lost unless you became someone else. I don't really have use for the word 'hate', however as most of my life has been influenced by scientology I certainly have had an uphill battle on those subjects of being positive and having self esteem because of it and to me there is no good in the subject. And that does allow me to move on. :)
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
Yes the cult is much like the vampire. You have to invite him to drink your blood leaving you with the same fate as his. As horrible as it is, it is still strangely seductive.

Do you suppose someday there will be creepy sexy stories about the emotional conflicts we experienced? :hmm: Naw. I doubt it. :no:

I don't, the shit writes itself, really, I reiterate an old saying of mine, you simply can't make this shit up!

(Hey, it'd be a hit mini-series I think!)

:hug: & :Cheers:
 
Is she? I thought she just did the email and hasn't said anything publicly since. I read here that she was answering emails, but that isn't the same as setting up a website or blog and visibly continuing to push a message.

Paul

Agreed. Poetic license or something. Actually "Debbie riding her chariot" was meant more as a reference to the idea that In-scientologists or out-scientologist might have about Debbie. Their hopes or wishes that someone might save them from DM, or Marty, or DM and Marty.
 
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Smilla

Ordinary Human
It's good now, that we know beyond any doubt whatsoever, that Rathbun and Miscavige both practice the disgusting ritual of ordering Disconnection when it suits their purposes.

Mark Rathbun, you are scum.
 
Re: Wingnuts

There are some brilliant posts on this thread, and this is one. You paint such a wonderful word picture John I felt I was there, a fly on the wall.

Marty posted this last night my time but I was too tired to post it in the appropriate place. This may be it.


http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/

So he supplies the perfect word - "wingnuts". And IMO a perfect example of projection. :biggrin:

He does what Ron does. In order to hide the truth about himself he puts it right there on the table in front of them. Who would think to look there for a bald faced lie. Extremely nacissistic behaviour?.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I've come to think that in many cases, Scientology induces mental illness - often in the form of pathological narcissism. Hubbard, Miscavige, and Rathbun are textbook cases. Blind, deluded, and utterly selfish.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Well Still a supporter of Marty and Mike. Not agreeing with everything.

However in his recent post re Debbie cook," To Those who Fly Under the radar" he said

"Her only hope for survival is choosing truth over compromise, something quite confrontable and doable thanks to the sacrifices of Independent Scientologists over the past three years."

I pointed out that the FZ , and specifally Ken Ogger the " Pilot" had made similar posts and comments to both Debbie and himself 14 years
ago. Twice:-

" THE ORG'S GRADES ARE OUT
REFORM SCIENTOLOGY NOW
BY "THE PILOT"

This page is addressed to members of the Church of Scientology.

Scientology is a religion which seeks to improve the spiritual awareness and abilities of its members by means of auditing (pastoral counseling). This auditing is generally directed to specific areas known as "grades" such as grade zero which addresses communications or grade one which addresses problems. When these grades have not been handled and the person is having difficulties in these areas, the grades are said to be "out".

Anyone who has honestly studied the "tech" of Scientology auditing can see that the organization behaves like an individual who has his grades out, stopping communications, committing overt (harmful) acts and justifying them, and becoming embroiled in problems and upsets. They turn a blind eye because they don't want to criticize the organization or they justify this in some other manner. But it is time to confront the truth and do something about it before the organization sinks under the weight of its own aberrations.

For those of you who are not Scientologists, please follow the links at the end of this document to find other sites which contain more definitions and explanations.

Written July 1997, last updated 7/2/97."

His comments:-


------------------
martyrathbun09 | January 20, 2012 at 1:21 am | Reply

Criticalness has nothing to do with anything I am talking about. Tune in Pal.

---------------------

martyrathbun09 | January 21, 2012 at 3:35 am | Reply

terrill, try to have a communication cycle rather than a free association a=a=a. It makes it moderation burdensome when I have to police for off-the-wall gibberish that ignores a direct communication directed at you.
 
Well Still a supporter of Marty and Mike. Not agreeing with everything.

However in his recent post re Debbie cook," To Those who Fly Under the radar" he said

"Her only hope for survival is choosing truth over compromise, something quite confrontable and doable thanks to the sacrifices of Independent Scientologists over the past three years."

I pointed out that the FZ , and specifally Ken Ogger the " Pilot" had made similar posts and comments to both Debbie and himself 14 years
ago. Twice:-

" THE ORG'S GRADES ARE OUT
REFORM SCIENTOLOGY NOW
BY "THE PILOT"

This page is addressed to members of the Church of Scientology.

Scientology is a religion which seeks to improve the spiritual awareness and abilities of its members by means of auditing (pastoral counseling). This auditing is generally directed to specific areas known as "grades" such as grade zero which addresses communications or grade one which addresses problems. When these grades have not been handled and the person is having difficulties in these areas, the grades are said to be "out".

Anyone who has honestly studied the "tech" of Scientology auditing can see that the organization behaves like an individual who has his grades out, stopping communications, committing overt (harmful) acts and justifying them, and becoming embroiled in problems and upsets. They turn a blind eye because they don't want to criticize the organization or they justify this in some other manner. But it is time to confront the truth and do something about it before the organization sinks under the weight of its own aberrations.

For those of you who are not Scientologists, please follow the links at the end of this document to find other sites which contain more definitions and explanations.

Written July 1997, last updated 7/2/97."

His comments:-


------------------
martyrathbun09 | January 20, 2012 at 1:21 am | Reply

Criticalness has nothing to do with anything I am talking about. Tune in Pal.

---------------------

martyrathbun09 | January 21, 2012 at 3:35 am | Reply

terrill, try to have a communication cycle rather than a free association a=a=a. It makes it moderation burdensome when I have to police for off-the-wall gibberish that ignores a direct communication directed at you.

As a degraded being, I am qualified to notice truly advanced degradation in this (above.)
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
'criticalness'
???

double-facepalm.jpg


iya.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
------------------
SNIP:

Criticalness has nothing to do with anything I am talking about. Tune in Pal.

---------------------

martyrathbun09 | January 21, 2012 at 3:35 am | Reply

terrill, try to have a communication cycle rather than a free association a=a=a. It makes it moderation burdensome when I have to police for off-the-wall gibberish that ignores a direct communication directed at you.

He seems to think you are a complete idiot.

Is he right, would you say?
 
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