RolandRB
Rest in Peace
Then Tom Cruise is a ticking timebomb. It is even possible that Marty indicated the wrong volcano.
Marty toasted on both sides on KHOW radio yesterday
- Thread starter Mick Wenlock
- Start date
Then Tom Cruise is a ticking timebomb. It is even possible that Marty indicated the wrong volcano.
Man de la Mancha
Patron with Honors
Hey Man,
The answer to these questions is YES.
You seem like a nice person, so I suggest it would be better to have a little less "assert" when opining on a program you claim to not know much about and have not done.
If you want to look it up - go for it - it's all just a few keystrokes away.
Also, regardless of a very few claims, the transcripts of the OT3 materials on the Internet ARE exactly factual. Start at the Operation Clambake site and you'll get right to it.
Why do you type X instead of just typing XENU (can be spelled XEMU)?
No, it couldn't be......come on.......are you a Scientologist?
You've clamed on this thread to not be a EX-Scientologist.....:confused2:
I have never denied that the Xenu manuscript is authentic Scientology doctrine - it certainly looks and sounds like LRH. What I was referring to are the actual processes one runs on himself during OT3, and I am quite confident at this point that, yes, the Xenu narrative is inseparable from the actual auditing process. While that might be a bit "far out" for me personally, it certainly does no harm that others find value in it, and I remain of the opinion that it serves no useful purpose to mock people and their beliefs or condemn them for telling little white lies to avoid public ridicule. I am much more concerned with condemning the RPF, disconnection, and child neglect/forced abortions.
I previously referred to the villain as "X" out of respect for those who may be offended by public pronouncement of "Xenu". But I suppose it is a bit silly to do that, at least on ESMB where everyone already knows about it.
I never said I wasn't an Ex-Scientologist, I said I wasn't anti-Scientology, at least not insofar as the philosophy is concerned. Haven't been in an org for over 25 years, but I have much love for both Scientologists and ex-Scientologists. There seems to be commonality amongst us, and I think that is the fact that we all more or less consider our own spiritual growth an important, if not the most important, part of life. That's why we used to be Scientologists - it was part of that search for our true selves.
And I don't mean to be over assertive. The truth is, I know very little about the upper levels, so it's sometimes helpful to ask questions. I do, however, have a very keen understanding of the theory behind Dianetics, which seems to pervade the entire doctrine insofar as the concept of "running" incidents of pain and suffering. If not for that, I would never have joined the Sea Org.
Thank you for your response, ThisIsNotOK! Hope my reply makes my positions more clear.
Man de la Mancha
Patron with Honors
degraded being
Sponsor
Belief in the Xenu story and belief that "auditing" based on it is necessary to save the planet, is what motivates the COS to do the things you condemn ; "...the RPF, disconnection, and child neglect/forced abortions...."
Religion has a lot in common with other types of belief systems. People can crow about how it is somehow in a special class that should be "respected" all they like...it still comes down to ideas. Just ideas. With political ideology you end up with a state/country/community enjoying or suffering the controls that come from the ideas that motivate the policy/political party in power. In a religion or a cult you end up with the controls based on the ideas of the leader of the cult. The power structure in scientology is top down-pyramid. Hubbard, though dead in a sense still holds the power, and those closest to him have more power. The SO has a lot of power. They sign up for a billion years to clear the plant (and I think, "this sector..."). Clear of what?
The results of xenu..etc.
".... the RPF, disconnection, and child neglect/forced abortions..." is done to make "clearing the planet" more efficient.
If someone wants to believe in xenu, who cares? but if belief in xenu comes with belief in ron and ron's philosophy...which means getting the world organised Ron's way, then any earthling is a stakeholder, one is supposed to "respectfully" accept all that crap. It deserves ridicule, just as some political ideas do.
Panda Termint
Cabal Of One
Quoted for context:
My point is that the word "alien" is not used when describing these things in the scientology lexicon and so a scientologist may "honestly" (read "accurately") answer with the typical PR-spiel, "I've never come across that idea in all my years in scientology, you must be confusing Hubbard's science fiction with scientology"!
Surely you, of all people, understand exactly what I'm saying here?
Ask them about "entities" rather than "aliens".
You understand this. I understand this. Most here probably understand this.People from other planets are called aliens. Scientologists are aware of how this word is used by "wogs." Their slippery responses are a deliberate attempt to mislead, so as to not appear odd.
Hubbard, himself, said he was "not from this planet."
The BTs shipped in from other planets of the confederacy are "aliens."
Since all thetans (per Scientology) are older than Earth, and not from Earth, they too are aliens.
I'm waiting for Scientologists to be honest when asked such simple questions.
I'm not holding my breath.
My point is that the word "alien" is not used when describing these things in the scientology lexicon and so a scientologist may "honestly" (read "accurately") answer with the typical PR-spiel, "I've never come across that idea in all my years in scientology, you must be confusing Hubbard's science fiction with scientology"!
Surely you, of all people, understand exactly what I'm saying here?
Ask them about "entities" rather than "aliens".
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Infinite
Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
KSW. If you doubt L Ron Hubbard scripture is anything other than a " . . . cold-blooded and factual account of your last 76 trillion years . . . " you have overts and/or MUs so it won't work. This might explain why there are exactly zero Clears.
Div6
Crusader
Nope. Doesn't say anywhere that I have to "believe"...
Man de la Mancha
Patron with Honors
Nah. The lust for money and power motivates the pitfalls of Scn Inc. The story of Xenu is relatively harmless in my book.
Lone Star
Crusader
This^^
I too was going to reply something similar along the lines of why many of us ridicule the beliefs. The beliefs drive the bad behavior in which I think all of us agree is out of control. Why are fanatics so, well, fanatical? Because of what they BELIEVE!! Why do fanatical Muslims kill non-Muslims, or even Muslims of another stripe? Because they BELIEVE they are serving Allah and will be rewarded in Paradise. Why do Scientologists disconnect from and destroy families...engage in Fair Game...lie...cover up...put people in the "Hole"...RPF the "downstat"...separate children from their SO parents...sue people in court to ruin them...etc... Because they BELIEVE that going clear, getting through the "Wall of Fire", ridding themselves of body thetans and so forth is very serious business! They believe that they are humanity's only hope because of what XENU started 75 million years ago. You are either with them, or against them in their paranoid little minds. As LRH said, this is deadly serious business! Of course it is just about the stupidest bullshit a man has ever dreamed up, but they BELIEVE it! Unfortunately, so did I in the past.
Are all individual Scientologists fanatical? Of course not. And many are in the church for many years and still never become fanatics. Many of whom are on this forum. But the farther up that stupid bridge to total bullshit one goes, the greater the chance that person is going to become a fanatic. I've seen it up close and personal. And most on this forum want to talk about it, warn about it, and call it what it is: Insane, criminal, and dangerous nonsense.
(Whew! I needed that rant. What is it about Friday nights?)
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Infinite
Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
I never mentioned the word "believe" in the snippet we are talking about.
Veda
Sponsor
Congratulations, it seems that you were a Loyal Officer, not on this Earth at the time of Incident 2, nor were you captured and brought to Earth during Incident 2, and you did not have to endure the mass implanting to which the BTs were subjected. Yet, according to OT 3, anyone, on Earth now, has oodles of Incident 2-implanted BTs which need to be blown.
From Ron's Journal 67:
"The material involved in this sector is so vicious that it is carefully arranged to kill
anyone if he discovers the exact truth of it."So in January and February of this year, I became very ill, almost lost the body, and somehow or other brought it off and obtained the material, and was able to live through it.
"I am very sure that I was the fist one that ever did live through any attempt to obtain that material. This material I'm talking about, of course, is very upper level material and you will forgive me if I don't describe it to you in very broad detail because it is very likely
to make you sick too."One might ask, what is "the material involved in ths sector" that "is so vicious"?
It was the 4th dynamic engram - as described by Hubbard - called Incident 2 of OT 3 of 75 million years ago.
The material of 'History of Man' is not part of OT 3, but the approach to "handling" any "invalidators " can be traced back to H.O.M.:
From the 'History of Man' ["This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last 60 trillion years"] by L. Ron Hubbard, early 1952, originally titled 'What to Audit':
"Tell people who want to invalidate all this, 'Your criticism is very just. It's only fantasy.' ."
Hubbard was playing head-games with his followers for a long time.
From Introduction to the Clearing Course and OT 2 materials:
"Many persons experience unreality
at the start of [implant] GPM running[ancient implants told to the person, through the OT materials, by L. Ron Hubbard] This leaves when you see the meter reads." 
This is an except from a post from DartSmohen, a student on the first Class VIII course on the Apollo in 1968:
"Did you ever wonder why so many people died on NOT's? Why people committed suicide on OT3 and NOTS ?, strokes ? heart attacks ? cancers ?
"How many people have been left penniless, their lives turned upside down, families broken up, all because of this insane and obscene dream ?
"Do you think Hubbard didn't know what was going on ? Do you think that despite his own phobias that he knew deep down that it was never going to work, but what a great marketing tool. How much cash has been poured into the cult in the name of these pointless activities. (Let us not forget the well-intentioned FZ and RO). :confused2:
" And some more from DartSmohen:
"Once again, I pose the question; Is it all a matter of suggestion?
"It has been commented on, and confirmed by those who were with him at the time, that the content of "Inc 1 & 2" are the drug fuelled ramblings of Hubbard.
"Recent postings regarding the origin of 'Xemnu' have served to accelerate the popping of the OT3 'bubble'. Hubbard was a sci-fi fanatic and it is no coincidence that he launched Dianetics through a sci-fi magazine.
"Thus it would be a fair comment to make that further 'developments' made by RO and Freezone, based on the Hubbard OT principles, are in their own way 'castles built on sand'.
"The early materials which Hubbard drew on for his basic procedures are surely the more valid. they have stood the test of time and do produce genuine case gain.
"Remember, as a person becomes more and more involved in the pursuit of 'OT' through whatever version of upper materials are being offered, they become that bit more susceptible to suggestion.
"No doubt the adherents of RO and Freezone will wish to take issue with the above comments, but neither of these groups can deny that here is an element of suggestion in what is presented and run."
Scientology uses mostly benign writings and actions as lead-ins to the deeper and darker regions of Scientology. These mostly benign actions are a kind of disguise that protects Scientology, and deflects criticism, plus serves to convince Scientology newbies that Scientology's critics must be deranged, since they're denouncing as destructive a simple action that is, by itself, benign.
Those new to Scientology, having read a Dianetic or Scientology book, and having (naive or deceitful) Scientologists, saying, 'What is true for you is true for you,' etc., and having their attention directed to a long and impressive-looking 'Grade Chart', which would seem to promise 'more of the same but even better', have sometimes decided to become more deeply involved.
'You've had a sampling of what's to come, and it only gets better.'
Of course, Scientology is a 'bait and switch operation', and "what you see" is - ultimately - not 'what you get'.
Scientology, IMO, is an enlightenment-coated trap. And, as confusing as it may sometimes seem, and as difficult as it may sometimes be to explain, that enlightenment-coating, by itself, is not necessarily a bad thing - as long as it's kept in mind that it's the 'cheese' in the Scientology mind-trap."
Veda
Sponsor
Since there's no edit function after 30 minutes, I just noticed that there's a quote mark after the end of my post at the bottom, so I'll just re-post it, minus the quote mark, so it won't be confused with the quoted material before it:
Scientology uses mostly benign writings and actions as lead-ins to the deeper and darker regions of Scientology. These mostly benign actions are a kind of disguise that protects Scientology, and deflects criticism, plus serves to convince Scientology newbies that Scientology's critics must be deranged, since they're denouncing as destructive a simple action that is, by itself, benign.
Those new to Scientology, having read a Dianetic or Scientology book, and having (naive or deceitful) Scientologists, saying, 'What is true for you is true for you,' etc., and having their attention directed to a long and impressive-looking 'Grade Chart', which would seem to promise 'more of the same but even better', have sometimes decided to become more deeply involved.
'You've had a sampling of what's to come, and it only gets better.'
Of course, Scientology is a 'bait and switch operation', and "what you see" is - ultimately - not 'what you get'.
Scientology, IMO, is an enlightenment-coated trap. And, as confusing as it may sometimes seem, and as difficult as it may sometimes be to explain, that enlightenment-coating, by itself, is not necessarily a bad thing - as long as it's kept in mind that it's the 'cheese' in the Scientology mind-trap.
Scientology uses mostly benign writings and actions as lead-ins to the deeper and darker regions of Scientology. These mostly benign actions are a kind of disguise that protects Scientology, and deflects criticism, plus serves to convince Scientology newbies that Scientology's critics must be deranged, since they're denouncing as destructive a simple action that is, by itself, benign.
Those new to Scientology, having read a Dianetic or Scientology book, and having (naive or deceitful) Scientologists, saying, 'What is true for you is true for you,' etc., and having their attention directed to a long and impressive-looking 'Grade Chart', which would seem to promise 'more of the same but even better', have sometimes decided to become more deeply involved.
'You've had a sampling of what's to come, and it only gets better.'
Of course, Scientology is a 'bait and switch operation', and "what you see" is - ultimately - not 'what you get'.
Scientology, IMO, is an enlightenment-coated trap. And, as confusing as it may sometimes seem, and as difficult as it may sometimes be to explain, that enlightenment-coating, by itself, is not necessarily a bad thing - as long as it's kept in mind that it's the 'cheese' in the Scientology mind-trap.
Stat
Gold Meritorious Patron
Really good post, Veda. Thank you!
In Scientology, if a "wog" asks one a valid question, it's sometimes "out-reality",
in another words "wog is not ready to understand", so one LIES (gives acceptable truth as an answer) easily.
RolandRB
Rest in Peace
You are right to be precise and correct just like Scientology is an exact science. An exact science, mind you, and not a pile of poo. Scientology has axioms and logics. It is totally scientific. Auditors and C/Ses are highly trained professionals who use scientific methods and exact science to locate a person'r areas of spiritual distress and take the exact scientific measures to resolve the situation. That's why it costs so much - and yet it is exchange in abundance for the PC.
I sometimes wonder just what would happen if an auditor were careless enough to indicate a wrong volcano to a PC. To evaluate for the PC, to introduce an alter-is and cause the persistence of this thing. My God, my fucking God, that would be a disaster. Thank God that Scientology is an exact science.
Stat
Gold Meritorious Patron
Anything named C/S 53 and GF 40 Expanded, must be an exact science, right?
We are safe now (looking for a sarcasm button).
RolandRB
Rest in Peace
Why, of course dear boy - you're safe with science on your side. Step right up, step right up, everybody, and put your money down. The first person to pay for their Bridge package will get a 40% reduction - step right up, step right up!
degraded being
Sponsor
True. But the slaves are penniless. Their motivation is different.
No story = nothing to sell. BTW some people have had to be put on "Baby watch"
on upper level stuff.
SweetnessandLight
Crusader
I understand what you are saying Helly, and you raise an interesting point about how COS could spin this...if they could speak openly about OT three to OT's, which they can't...Scientologists lie constantly to maintain the system...it's a normal state of being for them. They lie to themselves to stay in, and they lie to others to KSW, and they lie to "handle" outside criticism or bad publicity, whether from media or their friends and family. Ron modeled it for them and they follow in his footsteps. Who are the elite of Scientology, the best of the best with FULL privileges, who freely spend the Cult money and steer the ship of the Cult Culture? It's not the public, it's not the staff, it's not even most of the lowly Sea Org members, slaving away in hot kitchens, or scraping paint and pulling weeds, filing and writing letters and emails to sell more books, it's those few who are in RTC which runs OSA and everything else. First Ron and his hand-picked minions, and now Miscavige and his hand-picked minions. Making up and selling believable lies is how they have survived all this time. Read Robert Vaughn Young"s excellent article on about this at: http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/quill.htm
To my way of thinking, in this radio interview, Marty was telling an "acceptable" truth... for public consumption.
Nothing new about doing that, surely!I would like to think that he actually means it, as it would mean that he IS more in touch with our commonly accepted reality base than his having served at Int base for so long would indicate...I do see signs that he has been actually waking up even more from the Scientology dream of life and reality, as hopefully ALL former Cult members (COS members) will eventually do.
I think he does believe that one can be "culturally" a Scientologist and not take literally the Zenu story, just as one can "culturally" be a Christian and not take literally most of the stories in the Bible. I think a lot of upper-level Executives can hold this consideration. I think the Space Opera elements are not what attracts them to continuing to do Scientology, but are rather incidental to their doing Scientology.
I understand why he did the interview and I think he is trying to make Ron's "Space Opera" (what Ron called it HIMSELF) dogma into an acceptable truth for the general public...I myself have personally heard Scientologists say (about the Zenu origin myth explaining why we are here on earth) that it's no more or less believable than the idea of a virgin giving birth to the son of God or there being a talking snake in the garden of Eden).
Holding a (any) consideration that will serve a greater purpose is something he was taught and is well-practiced at doing. (That IS being pan-determined...the ability to hold any consideration and not only be o.k. with it, but to make things go right via using it with others to serve your purpose or achieve your goal...) I think it is, for him, a way to play a winning game.
Would it alarm anybody to hear that this is the consideration that many if not most Int Base and other upper level Scientology Executives hold about the Zenu creation myth? Remember, according to this Space Opera consideration, we ourselves as Thetans were accorded this same "processing and implantation", etc, as the BT's underwent, only we were TIGERS enough as Thetans to stand up under it and able enough to get our acts together to claim or collect our own G.E. bodies to run to enable us to live out lifetime after lifetime, until we finally free all the trapped Thetans on this planet (and in this quadrant?) that are too weak, confused or degraded to know or free themselves...poor things, and we are able enough ourselves to no longer "need" a Genetic Entity body to operate (really an OT).
According to this Space Opera dogma, it puts us in the starring role as the superiorly able and aware saviors of mankind, and the only ones on the planet who REALLY know what is going on...which pushes big buttons for Sea Org members in general and Int Base and upper level Executives specifically...they pride themselves on being TIGERS, the most able beings on the planet, in spite of all evidence to the contrary that they are just as humbly human as all the rest of us, with flaws, failings and vulnerabilities in reality (no such thing as a real OT, except as a consideration) as any other person.
I think this is how some upper-level Scientologists can tolerate that particular bit of implanted insanity, the wall of "fire" dogma: (Remember, the vase majority of people who get into Scientology blow before dealing with this or get "stalled" somewhere lower on the Bridge.) They (publicly or privately) consider it to be an origin myth on a par with the garden of Eden story, for the greater good of the movement, if they are Sea Org or staff, and so that they themselves will be allowed to continue to do processes and "progress" up through the levels up the bridge, if they are public. It's not important to them or their "progress" in the Cult Organization that they REALLY believe it to be factual, if they can accept it as mythic and get self-perceived benefits from doing the processing (which some say they do).
Just because I love his efforts to make amends, here is a portion of Robert Vaughn Young's work, which illustrates my point about lying as a way of life for Scientologist Executives:
How To Fool The Press: A study in misinformation
by Robert Vaughn Young
"In nearly 20 years of handling the media for Scientology and Hubbard, I dealt with a lot of journalists. One of the most challenging occurred in 1980, when the Riverside Press-Enterprise broke a story by Dick Lyneis that Hubbard was secretly ensconced at a nearby deserted resort called Gilman Hot Springs.
Since the FBI raid on Scientology offices in 1977, Hubbard had been the target of an increasing number of process servers and government investigators. His location had become one of Scientology's best-kept secrets. When necessary, Hubbard could move and he did.
But the headquarters of Scientology International in Gilman Hot Springs could not move so easily. Although Hubbard claimed not to be running the Church of Scientology, in fact he did. Here was the seat of the Hubbard Holy Empire, 90 minutes east of Los Angeles. Hubbard was not eager for attorneys, the media, or the Internal Revenue Service to know this.
I was sent in to handle the situation.
As in Clearwater, Florida, Scientology had covertly bought the Gilman Hot Springs property and secretly moved in. The phone book listed it as the "Scottish Highland Quietude Club." Few driving by were interested in the few people who occasionally walked between the buildings.
By the time I arrived, Hubbard had disappeared. Most of the staff he had deserted were terrified because the security he had demanded had been blown. They knew his temper and they feared his wrath.
I toured the property and found a small film-making area and an audio tape production unit, called Golden Era, which was supposed to supply materials to the Church of Scientology. Both had been shut down by Hubbard, but I saw my solution. It was, as he called it, "an acceptable truth." I obtained L.A.'s approval for my plan.
Through that night and into the morning, the facility was converted. I had the paper covering all the windows taken off. Everything was cleaned. Equipment and desks were rearranged to hide certain tasks and to create others. Tapes, films, scripts, and costumes were dragged out and made obvious. Many international management staff were sent off the base to reduce the number of personnel.
The next day, the "Scottish Highland Quietude Club" had become Golden Era Studios. A media tour went without a hitch. The tape-production area wasn't cranking yet, but I did get people busy making costumes and booklets or doing artwork. We found a makeshift studio that "just happened" to be working when the tour came through. Asked about "international management," I said yes, they did manage distribution of films and tapes, which did go to churches worldwide. No one noticed I had avoided the question and diverted attention to the film and tape production.
The news that night was perfect. The Riverside Press-Enterprise story had been countered. Gilman was no longer considered the headquarters of Scientology. It was just a bustling film and tape facility that supplied the Church of Scientology.
When the flap died down, international management quietly moved back in. Since then Golden ERA Productions has expanded considerably. There are even guided public tours and PR glitz, including an occasional VIP or Scientology celebrity tour of the tape and film facilities. No one asks about the other function we were able to quietly reinstall after the flap was handled., or the other management organizations that were quietly added.
But they're there, just up the hill from the sound stage, not too far from the spa where the hot springs no longer flow."
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Rene Descartes
Gold Meritorious Patron
Veracity at its best here.
Totally honest would be what?
"I've been bonded on the matter and cannot discuss this with you"?
Neh, not totally honest but it would be truthful. HH, would that be considered good enough to not be called a lie?
Julliette Lewis statement was that people often confuse Hubard's religion with his science fiction. Perhaps she might have been more truthful if she said that Hubbard often confused his religion with science fiction.
But assume there were no bonds.
Hm, I'm at a loss.
BUt I do know one thing that is a lie.
The statement that Solo NOTs is living lightning and will handle anything.
Rd00
TG1
Angelic Poster
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