Marty toasted on both sides on KHOW radio yesterday

[degraded being]

For the record, Mr. Rathbun never said he didn't believe in BTs, he merely stated he did not believe they were "space aliens". Just because he may not believe the story of "X" doesn't mean he doesn't believe in the tech. Similarly, just because someone doesn't believe in the "immaculate conception" doesn't mean he would invalidate the words of Christ.

Most would agree that LRH was many things, but "stupid" was not one of them. I think he made up that story so that when the materials inevitably became public, people would ridicule the fairy tale rather cave in on the idea that they're infested with beings not unlike themselves, many of which aren't very nice.

"X" is new to the world. Exorcism is not. And as a concept, it is much more credible than many so called "facts" promulgated by some of the world's "legitimate" religions.

Way to go Mr. Rathbun. You held your ground against a sniveling little prick intent on luring you into his trap, and not once were you tricked into invalidating your own beliefs. Those who heard the interview differently might consider the possibility that they are blinded by their own biases in the same way they accuse Scientologists of being blinded by theirs.

And as for that radio host, I wonder how often he spends an entire hour ridiculing the "immaculate conception"? In the now infamous words of John Carmichael: "I smell pussy."

I could be wrong, but I believe he said he doesn't believe space aliens inhabit our bodies. Regardless, it's unfair to ridicule one's religious doctrine. Go ahead and ridicule the inquisition. Ridicule the RPF. Ridicule pedophile priests. Ridicule child neglect. But out of respect for our fellow man, let's not ridicule "walking on water" or "body thetans". Even to an anti-Scientologist (which I am not), it merely detracts from the more important things.

Can anyone tell me if the story of X, or any of its components, is really even required to run the processes? Is it required that one actually recall being aboard an earthbound DC-8 to exorcise a BT? Must one recall volcanos to EP on any process? It seems to me that, whether or not the story is true, it is highly irrelevant to properly "disabusing" oneself of an unwelcome being. Just curious.
​

OK, I've seen the 'ol "confusing Scn with science fiction" line enough to be pretty certain they're coached to say that. But would it be any better, in a practical sense, if they brushed it all off as "matters of faith" like all the "legitimate" religions do? Why should anyone be obligated to expose themselves to public ridicule?

Meanwhile, some twelve year old in Hollywood is giving lap dances for swigs of whiskey from her demented stepfather because her mother is too busy on the RPF to care. Oh, I'm sorry, did I interrupt something about Xenu?

Honest about what? Xenu? Wow. I could give a rat's ass if someone lies about Xenu. Um... maybe I just need to get my priorities straight.

I have never denied that the Xenu manuscript is authentic Scientology doctrine - it certainly looks and sounds like LRH. What I was referring to are the actual processes one runs on himself during OT3, and I am quite confident at this point that, yes, the Xenu narrative is inseparable from the actual auditing process. While that might be a bit "far out" for me personally, it certainly does no harm that others find value in it, and I remain of the opinion that it serves no useful purpose to mock people and their beliefs or condemn them for telling little white lies to avoid public ridicule. I am much more concerned with condemning the RPF, disconnection, and child neglect/forced abortions.

I previously referred to the villain as "X" out of respect for those who may be offended by public pronouncement of "Xenu". But I suppose it is a bit silly to do that, at least on ESMB where everyone already knows about it.

I never said I wasn't an Ex-Scientologist, I said I wasn't anti-Scientology, at least not insofar as the philosophy is concerned. Haven't been in an org for over 25 years, but I have much love for both Scientologists and ex-Scientologists. There seems to be commonality amongst us, and I think that is the fact that we all more or less consider our own spiritual growth an important, if not the most important, part of life. That's why we used to be Scientologists - it was part of that search for our true selves.

And I don't mean to be over assertive. The truth is, I know very little about the upper levels, so it's sometimes helpful to ask questions. I do, however, have a very keen understanding of the theory behind Dianetics, which seems to pervade the entire doctrine insofar as the concept of "running" incidents of pain and suffering. If not for that, I would never have joined the Sea Org.

Thank you for your response, ThisIsNotOK! Hope my reply makes my positions more clear.

Thank you TG1! This is also very helpful information. Maybe I should revise my opinion to: "I guess I'll find out if I ever do OT3", which is unlikely, but who knows what I might do with enough time and money on my hands! .

Nah. The lust for money and power motivates the pitfalls of Scn Inc. The story of Xenu is relatively harmless in my book. .

.....Umm....

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Yes, it is pat PR and the idiots asking the questions make it all possible.

I've said it before (and I'll say it again) the word "alien" is never used in Hubbard's description/scripture regarding these things, Asking any question using that word is a get-out-of-question-free card to the scientologist. Whereas "normal" people think of extra-terrestrial beings/happenings/incidents as being "alien", scientologists do not.

We're all just thetans to the scientologist. If the interviewer were to use the word "entity/entities" rather than "alien(s)" it would allow much less wiggle-room.

Panda, are you denying that this document is real and in Ron's handwriting? This IS the OT III material one "studies"...This is a facsimile of it:

Ron's use of the words "Galactic Federation (76 planets around larger stars visible from here)...75,000,000 years ago, very space opera....
He caused people to be brought to Teegeeack (Earth)...His name was Xenu..." all say space and aliens to me...

What part of that does not say space alien to you? Clearly that is what it means...you can't get around it by saying, well, Ron didn't use the words "space alien" so that isn't what he was referring to...

Doing basic inference like this is an important part of functional literacy, and I know that you are literate and able to think straight... so please help me to understand what it is that you are meaning to say here regarding the OT III material?

Thanks.

 

[degraded being]

Veracity at its best here.

Totally honest would be what?

"I've been bonded on the matter and cannot discuss this with you"?

Neh, not totally honest but it would be truthful. HH, would that be considered good enough to not be called a lie?

Julliette Lewis statement was that people often confuse Hubard's religion with his science fiction. Perhaps she might have been more truthful if she said that Hubbard often confused his religion with science fiction.

But assume there were no bonds.

Hm, I'm at a loss.

BUt I do know one thing that is a lie.

The statement that Solo NOTs is living lightning and will handle anything.

Rd00

Getting there...How about if she just said Hubbard was often confused..?

 

[Panda Termint]

Panda, are you denying that this document is real and in Ron's handwriting?
<snip for brevity...>
What part of that does not say space alien to you? Clearly that is what it means...you can't get around it by saying, well, Ron didn't use the words "space alien" so that isn't what he was referring to...

Doing basic inference like this is an important part of functional literacy, and I know that you are literate and able to think straight... so please help me to understand what it is that you are meaning to say here regarding the OT III material?

Thanks.

You seem to have completely misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm saying it lets the Interviewee "off the hook". Scientologists don't (to my knowledge) think in those terms, a thetan is a thetan is a thetan. They don't really think of themselves as aliens either though most of them have some inkling/illusion of having lived an extra-terrestrial existence.

I could ask you to simply read it again but rather than that I'll say again, Hubbard never uses the word "alien" in describing these things (and neither do scientologists). Think it thru.

Almost every Interviewer I've ever heard asking questions about this stuff asked idiotic questions that were too easily dismissed by scientologists. Interviewers usually talk too much. If the interviewer were to simply ask about "entities" instead of "aliens" we would get either an obvious flat-out lie (eg: "I've never seen Entities discussed in all my years in scientology") or a straight answer (eg: yes OT3 deals with Entites) or a refusal to answer the question (eg: I can't discuss that because I've promised to never discuss it).

The actual word "alien" is not part of any Hubbard discussion of these things as far as I know and when an Interviewer asks about "aliens" it's quite easy for the scientologist to pretend or actually conceive ignorance of what's being referenced. Scientologists make excellent mental gymnasts.

I probably said it better originally. Perhaps if you re-read what I actually said on this thread you'll understand what I'm getting at.

PS: As I noted in my earlier post, I understand what is actually being inferred by the Inc 2 materials as, I'm sure, do most here. The document you posted is genuine, I've done OT 3.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Quoted for context:




You understand this. I understand this. Most here probably understand this.

My point is that the word "alien" is not used when describing these things in the scientology lexicon and so a scientologist may "honestly" (read "accurately") answer with the typical PR-spiel, "I've never come across that idea in all my years in scientology, you must be confusing Hubbard's science fiction with scientology"!

Surely you, of all people, understand exactly what I'm saying here?

Ask them about "entities" rather than "aliens".

Panda, they are lying and should be called liars to their faces by honest journalists when being publicly interviewed about Scientology. If it were widely public knowledge and confirmed by Scientologist celebrities that this Space Opera nonsense is the core of Scientology "upper levels" that are so costly... (do a course for $30 my ass!) no-one but a few demented Star Wars fan boys would ever get "into" Scientology and "go up the bridge", and all the abuses would end because the Cult would collapse for lack of membership and cash flow in very short time.

In this information war, no hedging on the truth... According to Ron, we all (Xenu, the loyal officers who trapped him, us, and the clusters of BT's we are allegedly infested with, causing us bodily and mental/emotional/spiritual problems) are space aliens. Not "entities" or "spiritual beings". We are reincarnated Space Aliens wrangling the ghosts of dead space aliens who are haunting us!

There is nothing Christian about it, Julia Lewis...or Buddhist or any other recognized religion. No matter how you hedge it, the so-called "religious" practice of Scientology consists of exorcising the spirits (weak, lost, confused and asleep thetans) of multiple dead Space Aliens from our own "space". Tell the TRUTH about this!!! This is core doctrine, if the whole rotten enterprise is to be considered a "religion". (Which of course it's not...it's a big fat con game!)

This space opera as religious dogma or doctrine is the definition of insanity. Of course it invites ridicule! Of course it causes people to spin in, to blow...That's why it has been kept SO SECRET! Tell the truth about it. Tom Cruise blew after he learned about the "Xenu story", and Marty recovered him for the Cult, as he was ordered to by DM.

Just tell the truth about this, everybody. Scientology is not what you want it to be, or whatever considerations you hold about it in your mind. It is what Ron said it was. It is the harmful product that RTC creates in the world, using billion year contracts and the RPF, physical restraint and human trafficking and physical force, emotional abuse and blackmail, enforced disconnection and coercion, the whole rotten mess of it. That IS Scientology. See it for what it really is.

It's not good, it's not helpful, it's NOT mankind's greatest hope of salvation. It's a long con involving getting seekers of greater personal powers to pay outrageous sums of money for the privilege of exorcising the spirits of dead space aliens that are allegedly around you and inside of you and are causing you lots of problems.

Scientology is not a science of mental health. Scientology is not workable technology. Scientology is not a religion or a religious philosophy. Scientology is learning and practicing a specific and detailed type of insanity that was created by Ron, who made it up as he went along, borrowing freely whatever he thought might work from others in order to sell books, lectures, courses and make money, and uneducated people are still paying greatly (in many different ways) for the privilege of becoming indoctrinated into playing his demented game by his, and now by David Miscavige's rules.

It is not a way to freedom of any sort. It is a trap. Tell the truth about it in plain words.

Okay Panda, I understand you. Thanks for clarifying and confirming that the document is the "real" OT III "study material". Just because Ron did not use the word alien does not make it any less obvious to any rationally thinking person. That's my point of what the interviewers are getting at...in a sense, the celebrity denials don't matter, however they spin it, and your kid glove handling of them, using "entities" etc. is pointless. They will always deny and lie because they have been trained and indoctrinated to do so. They are in a Cult and doing what they are supposed to do to protect the Cult, as good little Cult members do. Getting them to stop lying is NOT the point. Showing the world that they are Cult members is the point. The important point is for the interviewer to tell the public the truth about space opera being at the core of the Scientology "religious practices", to counteract all the slick COS PR that you can still practice the religion of your choice and be a Scientologist, and about COS being a doing-good religion and not the criminal for-profit corporate Cult that it really is. That this is accomplished by framing questions for celebrities is how the game is played.

If the whole wide world really understands this truth about Scientology COS is finished and it's all over except for the shouting!

Keep telling the truth about it, and don't hedge about the words to "spare people embarrassment". Scientology IS embarrassing when you really know what it is.

 

[Panda Termint]

That's perfectly OK by me, as long as it's OK by you that I continue to call Interviewers who insist on asking scientologists about aliens, "Idiots"!

According to Ron, we all (Xenu, the loyal officers who trapped him, us, and the clusters of BT's we are allegedly infested with, causing us bodily and mental/emotional/spiritual problems) are space aliens. Not "entities" or "spiritual beings". We are reincarnated Space Aliens wrangling the ghosts of dead space aliens who are haunting us!

In the words of Infinite, "Dox Plox". Not the inferred conclusion, where does Hubbard actually say "dead space aliens"? I could with perfect honesty say than in all my years in scientology, I never heard anyone say or infer this. (So why couldn't a scientologist say the same thing and not be lying?)

Once again, my point is; what if the Interviewer were to simply ask, "What about Xenu? What about Entities? What about Body Thetans?". These are things Hubbard actually DID discuss. "Dead space aliens" not-so-much.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I do not understand why Scientologists don't just say "We don't discuss our advanced beliefs outside of the confidentiality of our organizations" and just repeat that and refuse to confirm or deny anything at all?

Dissimulation is the acquired skill of the sophist - and scientologists acquire it early and in spades.

The "acceptable truth" is their achilles heel. Actually Umberto Eco did a nice job of exposing that whole technique in The Name of the Rose where the inquisitor is interrogating the "ex" heretic.

 

[RolandRB]

Panda, they are lying and should be called liars to their faces by honest journalists when being publicly interviewed about Scientology. If it were widely public knowledge and confirmed by Scientologist celebrities that this Space Opera nonsense is the core of Scientology "upper levels" that are so costly... (do a course for $30 my ass!) no-one but a few demented Star Wars fan boys would ever get "into" Scientology and "go up the bridge", and all the abuses would end because the Cult would collapse for lack of membership and cash flow in very short time.

In this information war, no hedging on the truth... According to Ron, we all (Xenu, the loyal officers who trapped him, us, and the clusters of BT's we are allegedly infested with, causing us bodily and mental/emotional/spiritual problems) are space aliens. Not "entities" or "spiritual beings". We are reincarnated Space Aliens wrangling the ghosts of dead space aliens who are haunting us!

There is nothing Christian about it, Julia Lewis...or Buddhist or any other recognized religion. No matter how you hedge it, the so-called "religious" practice of Scientology consists of exorcising the spirits (weak, lost, confused and asleep thetans) of multiple dead Space Aliens from our own "space". Tell the TRUTH about this!!! This is core doctrine, if the whole rotten enterprise is to be considered a "religion". (Which of course it's not...it's a big fat con game!)

This space opera as religious dogma or doctrine is the definition of insanity. Of course it invites ridicule! Of course it causes people to spin in, to blow...That's why it has been kept SO SECRET! Tell the truth about it. Tom Cruise blew after he learned about the "Xenu story", and Marty recovered him for the Cult, as he was ordered to by DM.

Just tell the truth about this, everybody. Scientology is not what you want it to be, or whatever considerations you hold about it in your mind. It is what Ron said it was. It is the harmful product that RTC creates in the world, using the RPF and physical restraint and human trafficking and physical force, emotional abuse and blackmail, enforced disconnection and coercion, the whole rotten mess of it. See it for what it really is.

It's not good, it's not helpful, it's NOT mankind's greatest hope of salvation. It's a long con involving getting seekers of greater personal powers to pay outrageous sums of money for the privilege of exorcising the spirits of dead space aliens that are allegedly around you and inside of you and are causing you lots of problems.

Scientology is not a science of mental health. Scientology is not workable technology. Scientology is not a religion or a religious philosophy. Scientology is learning and practicing a specific and detailed type of insanity that was created by Ron, who made it up as he went along, borrowing freely whatever he thought might work from others in order to sell books, lectures, courses and make money, and uneducated people are still paying greatly (in many different ways) for the privilege of becoming indoctrinated into playing his demented game by his, and now by David Miscavige's rules.

It is not a way to freedom of any sort. It is a trap. Tell the truth about it in plain words.

Okay Panda, I understand you. Thanks for clarifying and confirming that the document is the "real" OT III "study material". Just because Ron did not use the word alien does not make it any less obvious to any rationally thinking person. That's my point of what the interviewers are getting at...in a sense, the celebrity denials don't matter, however they spin it, and your kid glove handling of them, using "entities" etc. is pointless. They will always deny and lie because they have been trained and indoctrinated to do so. Getting them to stop lying is NOT the point. The important point is for the interviewer to tell the public the truth about space opera being at the core of the Scientology "religious practices", to counteract all the slick COS PR about being a doing-good religion and not the criminal for-profit corporation that it really is. That this is accomplished by framing questions for celebrities is how the game is played.

If the whole wide world really understands this truth about Scientology COS is finished and it's all over except for the shouting!

That's so perfect it stirred me below. I think I love you!

 

[Vittorio]

The space alien idea is one that some hold onto dearly as it's a very solid idea thats easy to ridicule. The OT levels have nothing to do with space aliens, but to do with spiritual beings which Ron calls 'thetans' and how they descended into the state of being a 'body thetan' due to their involvement in the incident or so-called incident. You are not auditing space aliens out of your body but supposed to handle a spiritual being that has somehow become attached to you.

The alleged technology involved however is very space opera. The concept is spiritual but the narrative of the incident is very sci-fi and imply's the sort of technology we will probably see evolving in the next 50 years. An Alien would imply a body and Scientology is less interested in bodies than it is in beings, however there is all the stuff about reincarnation on other planets and through animal bodies and an identification with objects etc etc. There's no reason why the people then could not look like the people now.

Ironically there was a 1920's Rabbi in Germany who felt that the mass slaughter of animals through an assembly line would eventually lead to the similar slaughter of humans and if I was to see OT3 as a 'metaphor' I could see it this way. I also wonder whether he is referring to the Atlantis society of conspiracy theory and mythology which the Nazi's and the thule society were interested in. They believed that this old world was a caucasian race with blonde hair and blue eyes. L.Kin states that the pre-Inc2 society was such a race with any other races only visiting earth as tourists and this is why white people feel threatened by modern immigration and want their planet back.

It would be interesting to hear more experiences people had running OT3 and how it positively/negatively effected them.

 

[Vittorio]

I also want to add that I don't believe that a higher state of being can be achieved or attained without having the basics of being a good person. Many comment about how most of their wins came from the lower levels or Scientology and their early days in the movement and it might have something to do with the fact that we are encouraged to look at simple problems and fix them. But as we go up the Bridge and join staff, we often re-create the problems through a sort of culture of neglect for our family, bodies and dissasociation from the world around us. I have no doubt that people have been helped by Scientology, but help has sometimes got to be selfless and come in any neccessary format, not just Scientology. Helping somebody carry their shoping, raising money for charity, planting trees and on and on are all noble acts. A further a person goes in Scientology the more insular many become and fail to see the genuine value in many other subjects in the humanities, arts and sciences and just become very single minded and fanatical.

All those basic civil values that humans have delevoped over thousands of years are not a waste of time and are just as important to spiritual development than attaining some level or secret knowledge or riches. I cannot simply dismiss OT3 because I know what it did for me and it was quite a strong thing, but I cannot ignore the fact that there are many others things that enlighten a person which are just as important.

Until Hubbards occult background in this story is revealed, the suffering and confusion, bickering, lying and arguing will continue.

 

[RolandRB]

I do not understand why Scientologists don't just say "We don't discuss our advanced beliefs outside of the confidentiality of our organizations" and just repeat that and refuse to confirm or deny anything at all?

Marty seemed to be completely caught out by the interview. He's a clever guy but I think he was just unprepared in this case. It took him by surprise. So much so that he destroyed his credibility as the Indie spokesperson in just that one interview.

 

[Lone Star]

The space alien idea is one that some hold onto dearly as it's a very solid idea thats easy to ridicule. The OT levels have nothing to do with space aliens, but to do with spiritual beings which Ron calls 'thetans' and how they descended into the state of being a 'body thetan' due to their involvement in the incident or so-called incident. You are not auditing space aliens out of your body but supposed to handle a spiritual being that has somehow become attached to you.

There's been a lot of resistance by some to the use of the term 'space alien'. It's basically semantics in my opinion. No, LRH didn't call thetans or body thetans space aliens. But when a wog with a woggy worldview reads OT3 and other material regarding BTs, he or she sees that Xenu was from another planet, these beings thrown down to Teegeeeack were from another planet, so therefore these are aliens from outer space. Those silly wogs! They're so woggy.

'Space alien' is also a term of ridicule, which is probably the real reason for the resistance to it. For instance, when Brooke Shields wanted to fire back at Tom Cruise for publicly ridiculing her and invalidating her post-partum depression, she said, "Well at least I don't pray to space aliens". Of course TC doesn't pray to space aliens. She was using terms that she understood. Ron's writings are so fantastic and "out there" that people tend to end up using the words and phrases that they know and understand. Of course Brooke's main purpose was to ridicule TC and his ridiculous beliefs.

Anyway, LRH was a science fiction writer after all. Sci-fi authors write about space aliens. He's the only one who made a religion out of it.

So, being a J and D woggy wog myself now, I have no problem saying that the OT levels are about auditing space aliens out of your body.

 

[RolandRB]

There's been a lot of resistance by some to the use of the term 'space alien'. It's basically semantics in my opinion. No, LRH didn't call thetans or body thetans space aliens. But when a wog with a woggy worldview reads OT3 and other material regarding BTs, he or she sees that Xenu was from another planet, these beings thrown down to Teegeeeack were from another planet, so therefore these are aliens from outer space. Those silly wogs! They're so woggy.

'Space alien' is also a term of ridicule. Which is probably the real reason for the resistance to it. For instance, when Brooke Shields wanted to fire back at Tom Cruise for publicly ridiculing her and invalidating her post-partum depression, she said, "Well at least I don't pray to space aliens". Of course TC doesn't pray to them. She was using terms that she understood. Ron's writings are so fantastic and "out there" that people tend to end up using the words and phrases that they understand.

Anyway, he was a science fiction writer after all. Sci-fi authors write about space aliens. He's the only one who made a religion out of it.

So, being a J and D woggy wog myself now, I have no problem saying that the OT levels are about auditing space aliens out of your body.

Can we just settle on "space cooties"?

 

[Vittorio]

Thats because you clearly don't understand what Thetan or Body Thetan means which is why you would have no problem saying you were trying to audit a Space Alien out of your body. Thetan/Body Thetan is essentially a spiritual being with the latter being in a lower level of existence. The 'alien' would be the body the thetan or body thetan inhabited at the time of the incident which is irrelevant and which is why Hubbard doesn't describe whether the body was like a modern day image of an alien or whether the body was like a modern day human. You wouldn't be auditing that body and the body thetan in question could have inhabited any body at the time, even an animal or a tree. The body thetan could have re-incarnated through any line. I often wonder whether Hubbards theory that weak spirits/thetans could only take the bodies of lower life forms is responsible for the dismissive attitude towards environmental issues and animal rights in the Church and especially towards vegetarianism. It's definitely part of the attitude used to dismiss those who cannot afford to pay for the costly services.

Edit; Synthia gets it right however when she states this is not the core belief because most people do not know about it until they do the level, though there is lots of indicators early on, with demon circuits, GE etc etc.

 

[degraded being]

I do not understand why Scientologists don't just say "We don't discuss our advanced beliefs outside of the confidentiality of our organizations" and just repeat that and refuse to confirm or deny anything at all?

Dissimulation is the acquired skill of the sophist - and scientologists acquire it early and in spades.

The "acceptable truth" is their achilles heel. Actually Umberto Eco did a nice job of exposing that whole technique in The Name of the Rose where the inquisitor is interrogating the "ex" heretic.

I think Tommy Davis tried that approach....once upon a time....only problem it got lost amongst the rehearsed tone levels of anger/antagonism and the "attack" drama.

 

[Lone Star]

Thats because you clearly don't understand what Thetan or Body Thetan means which is why you would have no problem saying you were trying to audit a Space Alien out of your body.

It's definitely part of the attitude used to dismiss those who cannot afford to pay for the costly services.

.

That's a typical viewpoint of an arrogant, koolaide drinking jerk. Before you said that I actually didn't think you were such a person.

Yes, I do understand what Thetans and Body Thetans mean. I think it's nonsense. Remember I said that 'space alien' is also a term of ridicule.

 

[SpecialFrog]

I do not understand why Scientologists don't just say "We don't discuss our advanced beliefs outside of the confidentiality of our organizations" and just repeat that and refuse to confirm or deny anything at all?

I think it is because they want to actively dissuade people from thinking that the Xenu stuff is real. Someone who believes that Scientology is all about aliens is unlikely to join.

So they can't leave it alone nor can they deal with it satisfactorily.

 

[Lone Star]

I think it is because they want to actively dissuade people from thinking that the Xenu stuff is real. Someone who believes that Scientology is all about aliens is unlikely to join.

So they can't leave it alone nor can they deal with it satisfactorily.

Special Frog...Special Frog...you're being glib. You don't understand. It's not about aliens. Read and study Vittorio's posts to get reality on the subject. (You must not have had enough money to do the OT levels).

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Okay, Lone Star, I read that differently from the way you did. I read what Vittoria said as being what the COS members who hold that attitude toward others seem to believe, not what he himself believes. But the whole structure of COS is very top down, with Ron (now Dave) as the Alpha dog at the top. I strongly dislike all such rigidly structured hierarchies as being totalitarian and inhumane.

So far as I am concerned, Vittorio is in the right place here at ESMB and welcome to stay here and talk with us some more.

Vittorio, I understand your viewpoint that I do not understand the concept of Thetans as Ron mean it.

Maybe my calling them dead space aliens seems very disrespectful or hurtful to you, and if so, I'm sorry, but that is how I honestly see the concept of BT's haunting or infesting us and giving us problems. (At least I didn't call them "space cooties!")

I accept that you experienced some positive gains from your processing on upper levels. I accept that you feel you understand what Ron meant by it all better than I do, and that I just don't grasp the concepts correctly yet.

What I would like to be able to do is to get you in agreement with me that Ron, as a science fiction writer with a creative mind, made the whole space opera (his words) thing up, as a fun game to play with people which would also sell his books and make him some money (it sure did).

Can we agree that there is in reality no Zenu, no galactic empire, no stuffing souls or spirits into volcanos, etc.? That it never happened? That it was a story that Ron made up?

Can we agree that this beautiful home of ours, the amazing earth is not Teegeeack, or a "prison planet"? That was something that Ron made up, is in a fantasy or fairy tale story?

That our bodily health ills and problems are not caused by Body Thetans? That Body Thetans do not exist in reality, and are in fact something that Ron made up to go along with his space opera story? That they are not real, and so cannot hurt or harm us, and that we do not need to learn how to get them to cognite and blow, as they don't exist in reality? They only exist in the minds of Scientologists who believe in them?

Can we agree on any of that?

 

[Lone Star]

Okay, Lone Star, I read that differently from the way you did. I read what Vittoria said as being what the COS members who hold that attitude toward others seem to believe, not what he himself believes. But the whole structure of COS is very top down, with Ron (now Dave) as the Alpha dog at the top. I strongly dislike all such rigidly structured hierarchies as being totalitarian and inhumane.

Okay, you may be right. Could you clarify it more? Which attitude specifically?