Lure Rob & Hyde

Patron with Honors
I really don’t think it was. It isn’t perfect, and they did not perfect it. It is inherently flawed; but it’s what command intention gives them. They used it, as imperfect and evil as it was. As Arnie Lerma would say, if Scientology’s black PR tech was perfect, we wouldn’t be here.



And when they turn their black PR skill or tech on their wog victims? Some people probably find that amusing. Doubtlessly Miscavige does. And the Independent Scientologists don’t stand up for Marty’s victims when he or their fellow Scientologists black PR them.



I’m not a critic, and Gerry isn’t a critic. Obviously some people in the critics group even attack Rathbun’s victims. I think mobilizing a force to black PR critics is your idea, not mine.

I also did not claim that Rathbun and Rinder’s long history of black PRing the Scientologists’ victims; or R & R’s training in black PR; or even that Hubbard’s (to say nothing of Miscavige’s) command intention for Scientologists is to black PR these same victims, is evidence that anyone is black PRing/attacking/fair gaming critics or mobilizing a force to do so. These facts are evidence of the continuingness of the black PR, fair game, torts and crimes, but the evidence of present black PR, etc. is something else.

There is evidence that the Independent Scientologists, in which Rathbun is indisputably a leader, are black PRing his victims. So is he, of course. Since he is a leader, and since command intention is Scientology tech, it is his command intention that the troops (that is, his troops, not someone else’s) also black PR the same victims in the same way.

See for example, Gerry’s response to a black PR salvo from Marty’s Scientologists and Marty: http://www.gerryarmstrong.ca/archives/5. Also see Gerry’s July 12, 2009 response to Rathbun (then calling himself “Sitting Bull”) regarding Rathbun’s “Scientology spectrum.” http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/archives/3312.

Obviously Gerry occupies and represents what Rathbun calls “The extreme, rebellious far left of the Scientology spectrum.” Rathbun says this group is occupied “those who would not be satisfied until every last word of Scientology Founder L. Ron Hubbard was forever destroyed,” but that is just black PR.

There is no such group as “the extreme, rebellious far left of the Scientology spectrum” that “is occupied by those who would not be satisfied until every last word of Scientology Founder L. Ron Hubbard was forever destroyed.” There is no such “Scientology spectrum.” No Scientologist I have seen has challenged Rathbun on his spectrum or the people he’s populated with it. This is evidence of a command intention at cause.

Critically, Rathbun has in mind real human beings with real names whom he postulates onto one of the ends of his extremity of his invention; and those human beings are the Suppressive Person class, the people who tell the truth about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. These are the people whose evil Rathbun essentially equates with Miscavige’s evil. That’s black PR.

The people who tell the truth about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard are the people Rathubn and his troops call the “haters.” That’s black PR.

And after Rathbun and his troops get rid of Miscavige (off his point of power to a palace in Malta?) do the troops mop up the other end of their spectrum, the SPs who tell the truth about Scientology and Hubbard?

Rathbun and Rinder excuse the evil they did by saying it was to defend Scientology and the founder, or achieve their acceptance. R & R have never stated that they would not do the same or worse for these purposes. They have never stated that Scientology is not worth doing evil for.

What they claim is that they discovered that what they were defending, and fighting for acceptance for, turned out not to be Scientology but something else – C of M, Miscaviology, corporate Scientology, etc.

Now that Rathbun and Rinder “know” that what they’re defending, and fighting for acceptance for, is really Scientology, it is completely reasonable to accept that they would do the same as they did while defending, and fighting for acceptance for, something that is not Scientology. It is actually reasonable that they would do worse now.

From a transcript of a telephone call between Rathbun and Michael Doven ca. 28 April 2010:



Fortunately, they are limited in the evil they can do by the same laws that restrain dependent Scientologists from doing unimaginable evil, and by their actual limited power, even with enormous resources.





The Indies, or the troops, on their own is obviously an invention. They are not on their own. When you can demonstrate they are on their own, I will join you in not worrying about them. What I have found effective for reducing or eliminate worry about the actually organized Independs, or the actually organized Depends for that matter, is communicating about them and to them, and confronting them.






Good. Fair game is the application of the Suppressive Person doctrine against SPs; that is wogs who tell the truth about Scientology and Hubbard. Not Rathbun or Rinder, or any Independent Scientologists, or any Dependent Scientologists, have repudiated the doctrine. They have to apply it, even in their ignoring of the SP class, that is, their wog victims. Scientology scripture provides no other treatment or handling for SPs.

Not every Scientologist gets to dramatize his or her intentions for SPs. That is because these intentions are criminal and if acted on are punishable in wog courts. Much of war in the realm of thought is legal, and much of the Scientologists’ war on its victims is in the realm of thought. (Ref. Battle Tactics)

Rathbun and Rinder got to dramatize their evil intentions toward SPs in the non-thought world, and get away with it. It’s not so easy now for Scientologists like Rathbun and Rinder, or even like Miscavige and his new lieutenants, to get away with it. Some wog victims, like Gerry and I, are fighting back.





Sure. But the important part of the Scientologists’ war, holy or unholy, is still on wogs. Their war on Miscavige, even if not faked like Loyalist Op One, is a matter of internal ethics. Most vital for me is the Scientologists’ war against my class, the SPs. All Scientologists participate in it. SPs should be fighting back against all Scientologists.

The Scientologists don’t like it when thinking wogs fight back. Too bad. I hope for everyone that more and more wogs fight back.


Your sentence ".” Rathbun says this group is occupied “those who would not be satisfied until every last word of Scientology Founder L. Ron Hubbard was forever destroyed,” but that is just black PR "
I confess to allMaghty Wrathbunny that I am one of those who live and breathe to see "every last word of Scientology Founder L. Ron Hubbard forever destroyed," hmmm yum yum !!! it would be such a joy to see that :yes:
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Originally Posted by Caroline said:
Obviously Gerry occupies and represents what Rathbun calls “The extreme, rebellious far left of the Scientology spectrum.” Rathbun says this group is occupied “those who would not be satisfied until every last word of Scientology Founder L. Ron Hubbard was forever destroyed,” but that is just black PR.

Does this description fit him? Or fit you?

No, in the same way that the Scientologists’ description of a Suppressive Person does not fit me. That is because their description of SPs is false in the extreme and black PR. Nevertheless, I know that I am an SP.

Gerry is really the best evidence of the people Rathbun and his troops actually stick out on the extreme, rebellious far left of the Scientology spectrum. Gerry is definitely not a critic. He is a real named person. He hasn’t been brought around to accepting Scientology and Hubbard as the Scientologists want them accepted, despite the most severe, repeated, long term application of Scientology technology to get him to accept.

As anyone can see, and anyone with a conscience would acknowledge, Gerry does not fit the description of an SP, nor of a person on the extreme, rebellious far left of the Scientologists’ Scientology spectrum. Again, that is because the Scientologists’ description of Gerry, not just on their fairly new spectrum but virtually everywhere, is black PR. There is no individual I know of that has been more black PRed by Scientologists, in both factions, and by wogs collaborating with both factions, than Gerry.

If there is some other wog out there on the extreme, rebellious far left of the Scientology spectrum that the Scientologists have black PRed and in other ways victimized more than they have Gerry, and are even farther out than he is on the spectrum, I would like to hear about this person. I realize that Rathbun says something about Tony Ortega being out there, but that’s obvious confusion tech.

Rathbun: “The extreme, rebellious far left of the Scientology spectrum is occupied by those who would not be satisfied until every last word of Scientology Founder L. Ron Hubbard was forever destroyed. The the anti-Scientology extreme cut its teeth on the purported purpose line of restoring freedom of speech and thought on the subject. Ironically, that very group is now demanding that everything L Ron Hubbard ever issued be burned in one colossal Spanish Inquisition-esque bonfire.”

The spectrum is bogus, and the description fits no one. Other than someone manufactured to make themselves right.

Originally Posted by Caroline said:
There is no such group as “the extreme, rebellious far left of the Scientology spectrum” that “is occupied by those who would not be satisfied until every last word of Scientology Founder L. Ron Hubbard was forever destroyed.” There is no such “Scientology spectrum.” No Scientologist I have seen has challenged Rathbun on his spectrum or the people he’s populated with it. This is evidence of a command intention at cause.

There is in Marty’s mind, and that’s who we’re talking about.

Sure. Except for the fact that illusions, delusions or lies in Marty’s mind, don’t make them real there, any more than illusions, delusions or lies are real anywhere else.

We are also talking about Scientologists in addition to Marty, because Martyworld tech is the application of Scientology. The people that Marty and his troops quarantine – in their minds, it can only be assumed – to the extreme, rebellious far left of the Scientology spectrum, are all wogs. These wogs are people who have told the truth about Scientology, Hubbard and Scientologists. These wogs are also the Scientologists’ victims. So really, we’re talking about a lot of people and a lot of people’s minds.

Marty and his troops are doing Scientology when they put the Scientologists’ victims on their “Scientology spectrum.” Obviously, the Scientology spectrum, is just a new twist on, or a more multihued view of, the old Suppressive Person doctrine. The new Scientology Spectrum doctrine is just as evil and indefensible as the SP doctrine. Marty’s SS doctrine is Scientology.

How is this evidence of command intention at cause?

In a sense you really have to understand command intention to get what it is. I know far better now what command intention is for Scientologists than I knew when I was executing command intention 24/7.

This Flag Order from a 1970 OODs Item is instructive.

Hubbard said:
SEA ORGANIZATION​
FLAG ORDER 3793-8
21 September 1980​
OODs Series 9

*Y*A*C*H*T* *A*P*0*L*L*0*
(Originally LRH OODs Item of 25.4.70)

COMMAND INTENTION

The way a group gets up into higher conditions is not by riding off in all different directions following confused patterns but by broadly undertaking steps of betterment as a group while keeping the show on the road. Hence "command intention" in the form of broad targets for the whole group. In this way heads of divisions and departments can back up command intention by pushing the main programmes heavily in addition to routine actions.

If each divisional officer now requires hat write-ups from his divisional people and writes up his own and sends them through to the Hats Officer, that would be "backing up command intention". They would not wait for an order to do so as the order is already there.

If each divisional officer insists his people go to drills in the drill period as well as do their divisional work, this would be "backing up command intention".

If people on the ship would send a note to the Chief Engineer for electrical and machinery or the 1st Mate for deck or ship equipment items that were not operating this would be "backing up command intention".

If a group is up to doing this sort of thing it can come out of conditions very fast and would find itself very well off in short order.

If a group cannot do this sort of thing - back up command intention - then one of two things is true

(a) Command intention is unreal or

(b) The group is not an organized group and is subject to disasters. At best it quickly gets into heavy ethics.

A leader or sub-leader who is ignorant of the group's know-how or the actual conditions of the group is of course capable of shattering the group by using ethics to enforce needless or squirrel intentions. Valid and real command or
sub-command intention strengthens a group.

L. RON HUBBARD
FOUNDER

There has been no dissent among the Scientologist troops on this key issue of the “Scientology Spectrum,” indeed doctrine, that affects every troop member’s views and relationships with wogs, and even other Scientologists.

Another Scientologist posted Rathbun’s Sitting Bull manifesto on another site. And there was no dissent there. Gerry certainly dissented, but not Marty’s troops.

Rathbun acknowledged he’d written it and reduxed it on his own blog. No dissent there.

Rathbun revisited it recently. And no dissent there.

The “haters” meme, the “spectrum,” the “middle path” have achieved information diffusion on Marty’s blog at least. His troops link the characteristics of his “haters” with those of the undisputed SP class, i.e. the “anti-Scientologists.”

Originally Posted by Caroline said:
Critically, Rathbun has in mind real human beings with real names whom he postulates onto one of the ends of his extremity of his invention; and those human beings are the Suppressive Person class, the people who tell the truth about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. These are the people whose evil Rathbun essentially equates with Miscavige’s evil. That’s black PR.
The people who tell the truth about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard are the people Rathubn and his troops call the “haters.” That’s black PR.

It’s an opinion – a stupid, boorish, Marty opinion. He has them.

Some people will buy it, some won’t. The vast majority see it for what it really is. This whole idea that Black PR is saying bad things about other people never went to high school.

Yes, but it’s a straw idea.

A black PR campaign will include stupid, boorish opinions that people have if it’s thought that a stupid, boorish opinion works for some purpose, such as to forward the campaign or keep it working.

The people Marty is seeking to influence very well could be those he considers the stupid, boorish class, so he communicates accordingly. Hubbard obviously thought his audiences and the people around him were in the stupid, boorish class, the way he black PRed good people to them. And Scientologists appear to believe they’re flourishing and prospering when they’re being communicated to as the stupid and boorish, who will, as you say, buy it.

Hubbard said:
Black propaganda is, in its technical accuracy, a covert operation where unknown authors publicly effect a derogatory reaction and then remain unknown. The effect of black propaganda is largely wiped out by, "Oh, it was the Germans who set them up."

Hubbard, L. (1971, 7 May ). Black PR. PR Series 7. The Management Series Volume 3 (1991 ed., pp. 26-31). Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, Inc.

See also this ESMB thread: Skirmish over YT video of Mike Rinder black PRing Gerry Armstrong and Graham Berry http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...-black-PRing-Gerry-Armstrong-and-Graham-Berry
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Originally Posted by Caroline said:
And after Rathbun and his troops get rid of Miscavige (off his point of power to a palace in Malta?) do the troops mop up the other end of their spectrum, the SPs who tell the truth about Scientology and Hubbard?

Marty is most definitely a Hubbard apologist but he has at least begun to concede that Hubbard was just a man, and a flawed one at that. It’s progress in my view. He’s seen some truth. And maybe when he stops fighting his holy war he will actually be able to see a little more of it. Right now holding Hubbard as a hero is fueling his fight.

I do not see it like that at all.

Rathbun has been saying Hubbard was just a man as long as Rathbun has been defending him. Scientologists defending Hubbard have been saying he was just a man as long as Hubbard got them to defend him. The Hubbard-was-just-a-man defense is actually just a strawman defense, because none of his or the Scientologists’ victims are saying he was anything more than just a man.

Rathbun did make a seeming concession of some importance in his article about the Scientologists’ first lawsuit against Gerry, even though Rathbun got other facts wrong. He’s writing here about the 1984 LA Superior Court judgment in Scientology v. Armstrong, case no. C 420153.

Rathbun said:
Not only did L Ron Hubbard’s life history get annihilated by the world wide media – it continued to be for thirty years, with only lame denials in response, as Gerry Armstrong was right all along in this respect: the church had little to no to counter documentation for the claims the church had loudly trumpeted about L Ron Hubbard’s life.

Rathbun, M. (2012, 30 March). L Ron Hubbard’s Worst Enemy – Part II. markrathbun.wordpress.com. Retrieved on 9 August 2012 from http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/l-ron-hubbards-worst-enemy-part-ii/

What the Scientologists did to Gerry during, and in addition to the thirty years of denials that he was right all along about something or other, appears to have finally lost a justification. But Rathbun has known that Gerry was right all along ever since Gerry was first right. So his concession comes with a measure of contempt.

In the same article:

Rathbun said:
It is just about the thirtieth anniversary of my introduction to the strange case of Gerry Armstrong. […]

Now, this is a very short-handed summary of a history that was not clear to me for many years after the facts – notwithstanding my personal involvement in some of it – , not even totally clear until very recently. The whole story will arrive soon enough.

The history has been clear to Rathbun for 30 years, because Gerry has been making it clear to him all along. If Rathbun is to be the author, unless he has a severe conscience adjustment, the whole story he promises will be just more spin. And it will be spin that black PRs good people, who have been right all along.
 
... Rathbun has been saying Hubbard was just a man as long as Rathbun has been defending him. Scientologists defending Hubbard have been saying he was just a man as long as Hubbard got them to defend him. The Hubbard-was-just-a-man defense is actually just a strawman defense, because none of his or the Scientologists’ victims are saying he was anything more than just a man. ...

That does not constitute a strawman argument.

The following is how a strawman fallacy is defined.

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Accordingly the statement 'Hubbard was just a man' is a point in agreement and not generally in dispute, although it may be used to justify different arguments by disputants.


Apart from that, I've no significant disagreement with your comments.

The short version: Rathbun has proved through his continuing actions that he is not trustworthy. His public remarks should be regarded in that light. Maybe some day he will recover some of his lost integrity, but he has a great deal of lost ground to make up in the interim.


Mark A. Baker
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
<snip>The short version: Rathbun has proved through his continuing actions that he is not trustworthy. His public remarks should be regarded in that light. Maybe some day he will recover some of his lost integrity, but he has a great deal of lost ground to make up in the interim.


Mark A. Baker

I agree with this.

Caroline, I know you're speaking from personal experience with Rathbun and you've every reason to have the opinions you have regarding him. I don't view him as anyone's leader, I don't think he's nearly as important or influential as he thinks himself. If his blog is a gauge then there are a few dozen people who constitute his cheering section. He doesn't have access to the money and various resources that were at his disposal when he was in the church. I just don't see Rathbun as a huge concern. I'm not saying turn your back on him. I keep tabs on him because it's the same Scientology, in or out of the church, and all it takes is for one zealot to decide to bring it all back with a vengeance to start the cult up in another form. But I do not fear him or his influence.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I agree with this.

Caroline, I know you're speaking from personal experience with Rathbun and you've every reason to have the opinions you have regarding him. I don't view him as anyone's leader, I don't think he's nearly as important or influential as he thinks himself. If his blog is a gauge then there are a few dozen people who constitute his cheering section. He doesn't have access to the money and various resources that were at his disposal when he was in the church. I just don't see Rathbun as a huge concern. I'm not saying turn your back on him. I keep tabs on him because it's the same Scientology, in or out of the church, and all it takes is for one zealot to decide to bring it all back with a vengeance to start the cult up in another form. But I do not fear him or his influence.

I agree.

Making no reference to Caroline's statements.

I think some people's views of Rathbuns influence and reach is massively overblown. He's just some guy who has a blog and a big ego. Most of the people who arrive at his blog are probably people who typed 'Scientology' into a search engine, and followed a couple of links. Then there are the people who no longer have any interest in practicing Scientology, but like to keep up with the gossip from time to time. Then there's the addled old codgers, who gave their lives and money to Ron and like to publicly pray to him and demonstrate their piety and holiness.

Last but not least there's a very very small number of nutcases, who go to Marty to have their nutcases cracked in auditing.

The Cof$ is a tiny cult.

Martys Church of Charismatic Scientology is micro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaYPWtNvJ-A


 
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Caroline

Patron Meritorious
That does not constitute a strawman argument.

The following is how a strawman fallacy is defined.
Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Accordingly the statement 'Hubbard was just a man' is a point in agreement and not generally in dispute, although it may be used to justify different arguments by disputants.

Apart from that, I've no significant disagreement with your comments.

The short version: Rathbun has proved through his continuing actions that he is not trustworthy. His public remarks should be regarded in that light.

More than that. They should be regarded as Hubbard’s statements should be regarded. Not just not trustworthy, but malign. Rathbun’s Scientology spectrum, of which he is source and promoter, is malignant, as are the Scientologists’ communications in support of this wrong and offensive concept.

Maybe some day he will recover some of his lost integrity, but he has a great deal of lost ground to make up in the interim.


Mark A. Baker

Thank you. Gerry says I should have called it a straw defense, which is one of myriad variations on the straw man meme. Or a straw concession.

He’s written about straw icons, straw beliefs, straw wogs, straw saints, straw sinners, straw dolls, and straw men straw men, and obviously got me thinking and writing about straw things too.

Rathbun and other Scientologists proclaim, or even concede, that Hubbard was just a man, as if that fact refuted some charge or claim against him. But Hubbard being a man doesn’t refute anything, except for perhaps a few Scientologists’ illusions otherwise about him.

So really Rathbun built some straw claims, which, of course, he isn’t clear about, because they’re straw. He implies that the claims he presents as refuting with the just-a-man come-back are his or Hubbard's opponents’ claims. They aren’t. They’re straw claims.

Rathbun rarely describes the straw claims he’s addressing, and they only become apparent when he originates his straw defenses, or straw refutations. He did, however, detail one straw claim earlier this year, which Gerry called him on.

Gerry said:
Rathbun said:
Essentially the claim was that if L Ron Hubbard was not an engineer, nuclear physicist, wounded and crippled war hero who was miraculously healed by his own brainchild Dianetics, and he was not the model of perfect virtue since then, why, then they were defrauded into spending money and devoting years to Scientology.

No, that’s a straw claim. The actual claim was and is that Dianetics and Scientology do not work as Hubbard and his underlings claimed. It does not raise IQ as claimed, it does not produce super-able beings as claimed, it does not produce superior character, or ethics, as claimed, it is not only not the most ethical organization in the world, it is easily one of the most unethical organizations in the world.

I for one got into Scientology as much for Hubbard and Scientologists’ claims of what they and their organization were doing in the world, and what the organizational character was, as for what they were going to do to me with Scientology. Not that making me OT, a clear genius, able beyond any Homo sap, and possessing an excellent character was not highly attractive.

There also were accusations in legal proceedings that his claims of being an engineer and a nuclear physicist, of being crippled and blinded and miraculously healing himself with his mental science, were lies. That is because these lies were told in the promotion of Dianetics and Scientology, which do not work as he claimed, and in the “handlings” to keep people in and paying or slaving for Hubbard, or his successors.

Armstrong, G. (2012, 2 April). Response to Mark Rathbun. gerryarmstrong.ca. Retrieved on 10 August 2012 from http://www.gerryarmstrong.ca/archives/280
 

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More than that. They should be regarded as Hubbard’s statements should be regarded. Not just not trustworthy, but malign. Rathbun’s Scientology spectrum, of which he is source and promoter, is malignant, as are the Scientologists’ communications in support of this wrong and offensive concept.......

Gerry says I should have called it a straw defense, which is one of myriad variations on the straw man meme. Or a straw concession.

He’s written about straw icons, straw beliefs, straw wogs, straw saints, straw sinners, straw dolls, and straw men straw men, and obviously got me thinking and writing about straw things too.

Rathbun and other Scientologists proclaim, or even concede, that Hubbard was just a man, as if that fact refuted some charge or claim against him. But Hubbard being a man doesn’t refute anything, except for perhaps a few Scientologists’ illusions otherwise about him.

So really Rathbun built some straw claims, which, of course, he isn’t clear about, because they’re straw. He implies that the claims he presents as refuting with the just-a-man come-back are his or Hubbard's opponents’ claims. They aren’t. They’re straw claims.

Rathbun rarely describes the straw claims he’s addressing, and they only become apparent when he originates his straw defenses, or straw refutations. He did, however, detail one straw claim earlier this year, which Gerry called him on.


Whoa!

That's enough straw to fill all the volcanos on Teegeack!

Scientologists (COS, Indie or FZ) are Clearly very PTS.

Potential Trouble Straw.
 
The straws that broke the camel's back! :biggrin:

3-1257235324-the-straw-that-almost-broke-the-camel-s-back.jpg
 

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...

Dedicated to Jerry & Caroline with love, for their bravery in battling brainless, bombastic bullies.

The Strawman speaketh. . .



Untitled-106-1-1.jpg
 
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Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Extracted from footage of Rathbun's "Truth Rundown" Interview, dated 31 Oct 2009:

Informal transcript of Rathbun said:
Well, Pat was an interesting fish because Miscavige, ah, all he was concerned about was getting materials that Hubbard had written about the upper levels, Hubbard's PC folders, notes that he had done that Broeker alluded to that were essential to compiling certain Scientology levels that hadn't been released, and this sort of thing. Broeker had been, been hiding these, using them as a last defense to prevent Miscavige from wiping him out from having any authority or influence in the Church. This was all part of his power push against Broeker. And once, we had, we had this huge confrontation where I had brought in a number of PIs, security guys, you know, hired guns, literally, to come in so Miscavige could have a direct confrontation with Broeker. It was me, Wilhere, Starkey, all of his henchmen. All of Miscavige's henchmen came in and had his con- and Miscavige had his confrontation with Broeker.

And finally got Annie. Annie finally broke under the pressure and told Dave where Pat was storing the materials, at a storage space.

Well once that, once the materials were gotten, Broeker had no more cards to play. And he basically said, "Screw it, I'm out of here. I'm leaving."

Source: http://www.tampabay.com/components/video/?bctid=47187265001

Compare with what Rathbun wrote in his book What's Wrong with Scientology:

Twenty years later, David Miscavige told a collection of elite Scientology contributors that L. Ron Hubbard had written up OT 9, OT 10, OT 11, OT 12, OT 13, OT 14 and OT 15.   That was a whopping lie.   The last OT level L. Ron Hubbard ever wrote up was OT 8.   Then he died. Pat Broeker used the threat of never turning over the alleged OT 9 and OT 10 in an effort to get Miscavige to allow him to exercise control in Scientology Inc. I was a part of three separate forcible search-and-seizures Miscavige directed in order to get at the alleged OT 9 and 10 at Broeker hideouts.   Each time we came up empty-handed, and finally concluded there were no such things.

Rathbun, Mark 'Marty' (2012-06-24). What Is Wrong With Scientology?: Healing Through Understanding (p. 145).

Related video interview with PIs Greg Arnold and Paul Marrick: Spying on Pat Broeker 30 September 2012. The PIs deny involvement with the storage space.

Greg Arnold: (3:25) We were of the understanding that Pat Broeker had a storage facility behind Wilson's bowling alley in Pasa Robles, and that he had a bunch of the upper levels of Scientology hidden there. And that they had retrieved the levels but they didn't know if they had retrieved everything.

Tampa Bay Times reporter: So what did you find at Wilson's storage facility? Was there a storage facility there?

Paul Marrick: Yeah, there's a storage facility there, as far as we know, but that's, we never participated in any kind of action against the storage facility.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Caroline,

Thanks for this. Would you please cross-post this comment on the PIs and Tampa Bay Times thread? I think more people would see it there.

Thanks,

TG1

P.S. I guess I could cross-post myself, but I don't know how to post something from one thread to another. Besides, it's your post, not mine, and I feel queasy about manhandling your stuff. It's very good, btw.
 

rickybobby

Hostess of the Internet
WOW. Nice work, Caroline! I had remembered this quote, but for the life of me couldn't remember where and it was driving me crazy!

I read this to mean that they got materials they were after, but it did not include any new levels.

My guess is it contained the ramblings of an addled, demented senior citizen with an incredible imagination that made little to no sense.


R
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Caroline,

Thanks for this. Would you please cross-post this comment on the PIs and Tampa Bay Times thread? I think more people would see it there.

Thanks,

TG1

P.S. I guess I could cross-post myself, but I don't know how to post something from one thread to another. Besides, it's your post, not mine, and I feel queasy about manhandling your stuff. It's very good, btw.

I've taken the liberty.
 

AussieCase

Patron
I doubt very much that Marty Rathbun is telling his PCs, who he C/Ses to do OT 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, and 8, that Incident 2 is a metaphor, non-literal, etc.

That's what he wrote in his book, but his book is a "handling" of, not only an "ARC broken field" (consisting of non-active current or ex Scientologists, many of whom, nowadays, have heard about "Xenu" etc., but have never done OT 3), and of "wogs." Marty is especially concerned with people he views as "wog opinion leaders."

<snip>
"

Thanks for the post. I just want to note that "PR handling" means lying.

Marty, Mike, Miscavige, and Hubbard lie in order to ultimately attract paying clients. The clients then pay for gobbledygook, aka Hubbard's Scientology.
 

Peter Soderqvist

Patron with Honors
WOW. Nice work, Caroline! I had remembered this quote, but for the life of me couldn't remember where and it was driving me crazy!

I read this to mean that they got materials they were after, but it did not include any new levels.

My guess is it contained the ramblings of an addled, demented senior citizen with an incredible imagination that made little to no sense.


R

Soderqvist1: good Guesstimate!

The Bridge to Nowhere February 10, 2010 by Jeff Hawkins
For anyone who didn’t notice, Marty Rathbun dropped a major bomb on his blog today.

“For a decade and a half Scientologists were urged to contribute to their local orgs so as to make them the size of Old St Hill as LRH postulated. DM dangled the promise of the release of OT IX and X as the prize when the target was met. DM did this knowing he hasn’t a clue how to compile OT IX and X and couldn’t deliver on the promise if he ever intended to.”

Marty added this to the comments section of his post:

“I witnessed David Miscavige with my own eyes and ears twice unequivocally indicate he did not have a clue how to get OT IX and X compiled.”
http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/the-bridge-to-nowhere/
 

Veda

Sponsor

The idea that that there were no upper OT levels was not a bombshell for me. Years ago, almost twenty years ago, I was told that, "They don't have anything," from a person I consider to be a reliable source.

I would recommend, however, taking any "bombshells" from Marty Rathbun with a grain of salt. Rathbun has not become a truth-teller. He's, essentially, a manipulator and a propagandist. Of course, some truth is sometimes told, but it's either unavoidable, or it serves his ends.

Hearing from Marty Rathbun does not reassure me that there are, in fact, no upper OT levels. I trust the original source from whom I heard this many years ago. I don't trust Rathbun.

According to Rathbun, Hubbard wrote New OT 8. Not someone else but Hubbard himself. Yet, when did that occur? 1983?, or, according to some, 1984?

This, after Hubbard had revealed to David Mayo that there was no old OT 8, and then assigned David Mayo the task of formulating and writing OT 8, a task that was never completed as Hubbard fired David Mayo and had him kidnapped and brought to the desert, where he was made to run around a palm tree.

Back To Rathbun: we are assured by Rathbun that Hubbard did not lie about there being more OT levels, and that the eight OT levels are the road to OT and are all one needs to become OT.

So, Rathbun presents information that appears to be true, and then tells two whoppers: That Hubbard didn't lie to Scientologists about there being more OT levels, and that the eight OT levels are the complete "Bridge" and are all one needs to be OT.

Uninspiring to say the least.

For those not familiar with them, here's a collection of Hubbard's statements on the upper OT levels. The quotes are at the end of the article: http://alanzosblog.blogspot.com/2012/07/marty-rathbuns-blind-spots-on-l-ron.html
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
...

Considering the small swirl of intrigue regarding whether OT IX and OT X even exist, one is reminded of this other little fact.

The entire Grade Chart through Clear and OT VIII don't exist either.

I can't see an conceivable difference.

What would it matter if they slapped together some super-secret LRH sounding HCOBs. Int Mgt could simply fake one in a few days and I can't imagine that any of the OT VIII's would possibly consider (or dare detect) that they were not pure Source revelations "beyond their wildest dreams" and "the greatest single action they had ever done on the Bridge".

For anyone who hasn't already seen it, here is the leaked first issue (HCOB) of OT IX as it appeared and was entered as an exhibit into evidence in court:


Confidential Issue:
OT IX Course Room
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex.
HCO BULLETIN OF MAY 11, 1981


S E C T I O N.....I X.....O P E R A T I N G.....T H E T A N


ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE

The thetan has traversed the physical universe for endless trillions of years, searching in vain for a point of egress.

In fact, the being is relatively powerless to resume his rightful place amongst the stars while he remains tethered to a body on this planet. A tidy bit of research was undertaken over the previous decades to unravel exactly what manner of adherence was needed to stick a fellow so thoroughly in the mud that he could not simply postulate himself out.

You've probably been wondering why your own postulates seem to wobble in fits and starts and we additionally discovered therein the basic-basic of what embarrassment and shame is:

EMBARRASSMENT IS A THETAN'S EFFORT TO
APOLOGIZE FOR THEIR POSTULATES NOT STICKING​

We are very fortunate that we have finally discovered the precise why and handling for returning to a being his innate ability to make their mockups stick. Thoroughly done, Advanced Level Section IX now represents the first moment in time when a being can regain their power of postulate.

WHY POSTULATES DON'T STICK​

A postulate does function efficiently in the presence of MEST until the theta is sufficiently up the line that the force and mass of their intention is capable of overcoming the inertial resistance of those proximal energies and solids in their vicinity. Learn this lesson well, dear thetan, for it, not the truth alone, shall set you free. From this study comes the Section IX stable datum:

A BEING'S POSTULATE MUST BE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE COMPARABLE
OR GREATER THAN THAT WHICH IT INTENDS TO CREATE AN EFFECT ON​

Less than a dozen human beings in the history of this planet ever rose to the level of postulates and those abilities were short-lived releases.

I only ask this one thing of you when you, yourself, have regained the power of postulate and that is to do good in the world with it.



LRH:jd
Copyright © 1981......................................................L. RON HUBBARD
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
 
Last edited:

Div6

Crusader
...

Considering the small swirl of intrigue regarding whether OT IX and OT X even exist, one is reminded of this other little fact.

The entire Grade Chart through Clear and OT VIII don't exist either.

I can't see an conceivable difference.

What would it matter if they slapped together some super-secret LRH sounding HCOBs. Int Mgt could do that in a few days and I can't imagine that any of the OT VIII's would possibly consider (or dare detect) that they were not pure Source revelations "beyond their wildest dreams" and "the greatest single action they had ever done on the Bridge".

For anyone who hasn't already seen it, here is the leaked first issue (HCOB) of OT IX as it appeared and was entered as an exhibit into evidence in court.


Confidential Issue:
OT IX Course Room
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex.
HCO BULLETIN OF MAY 11, 1981


S E C T I O N.....I X.....O P E R A T I N G.....T H E T A N


ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE

The thetan has traversed the physical universe for endless trillions of years, searching in vain for a point of egress.

In fact, the being is relatively powerless to resume his rightful place amongst the stars while he remains tethered to a body on this planet. A tidy bit of research was undertaken over the previous decades to unravel exactly what manner of adherence was needed to stick a fellow so thoroughly in the mud that he could not simply postulate himself out.

You've probably been wondering why your own postulates seem to wobble in fits and starts and we additionally discovered therein the basic-basic of what embarrassment and shame is:

EMBARRASSMENT IS A THETAN'S EFFORT TO
APOLOGIZE FOR THEIR POSTULATES NOT STICKING​

We are very fortunate that we have finally discovered the precise why and handling for returning to a being his innate ability to make their mockups stick. Thoroughly done, Advanced Level Section IX now represents the first moment in time when a being can regain their power of postulate.

WHY POSTULATES DON'T STICK​

A postulate does function efficiently in the presence of MEST until the theta is sufficiently up the line that the force and mass of their intention is capable of overcoming the inertial resistance of those proximal energies and solids in their vicinity. learn this lesson well, dear thetan, for it this alone, not the truth, shall set you free. From this study comes the Section IX stable datum:

A BEINGS POSTULATE MUST BE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE COMPARABLE
OR GREATER THAN THAT WHICH IT INTENDS TO CREATE AN EFFECT ON​

Less than a dozen human beings in the history of this planet ever rose to the level of postulates and those abilities were short-lived releases.

I only ask this one thing of you when you, yourself, have regained the power of postulate and that is to do good in the world with it.



LRH:jd
Copyright © 1981......................................................L. RON HUBBARD
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED


Lol. I see the eeeevil transcriptionists are alive and well.

Shouldn't "A postulate does function efficiently in the presence of MEST"
read "A postulate doesn't function efficiently in the presence of MEST"?


:biggrin:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
....



I'm just sayin'..... anybody could make up a bunch of shit in a red font and call it an HCOB.

That's how Hubbard did it.

I might have channeled one or two of 'em myself, come to think of it.
:biggrin:
 
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