ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Meditation, Yoga and other practices

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Tom_Booth, Apr 19, 2014.

  1. Robert Moor

    Robert Moor Patron

    Is "hymn of asia" even still in print? I've wondered into a few org stores looking for it and have gotten nothing but blank looks and referrals to the bridge publications website. I haven't seen it on their website (not that I'd order it there anyway....NOT giving these crazies my address)....anyway...anyone have any word on whether it's still in print? I kinda like going into the orgs and asking for books that I know they either won't have or will make the staff/sea orger on duty ask their superior officer uncomfortable questions. My favorites to ask for are

    1) Hymn of Asia
    2) All About Radiation
    3) Dianetics Today
    4) Mission Into Time
  2. billyd

    billyd Patron with Honors

    I tried to buy hym o a last year in my local org and they had to order it in. It wasnt in stock.Try ordering books in Japanese that really pisses them off.
  3. AnonKat

    AnonKat Crusader

    Aren't they all crappy anyway
  4. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Heya Robert,

    You said you were never in Scn but I knew a Robert Moore who was staff for a short time in the SO in LA. He was a decent enough guy. Is that you?

    It's okay if you didn't want to say that straightaway. It was a really long time ago, like the 70s. Maybe it wasn't you, IDK. :confused:

    Anyway, Hymn of Asia was only out for a year or two because L Ron's pompous, preposterous, presumptuous claims were so outrageous, it wasn't received well in the Buddhist or other religious communities.

    All About Radiation was written by two doctors who didn't know shit-all about radiation and weren't even nuclear techs or any sort of physician specialty to do with Radiation. It's bogus.

    Dianetics Today? SRSLY?! That was the weirdest friggin' book ever. It made no sense. It was like, Dianetics simplified for 18 year olds who were dysleptic and also savants. Go figure. Nobody ever remembered anything from that book because it was just stupid so it wasn't reissued. For all it's faults, witchdoctor claims and pompous ridiculousness, at least Dianetics had some substance of rationality. Dianetics Today just sucked.

    Mission Into TIme. I'd love to get my hands on that, especially after hearing and reading firsthand stories from SO Members who were on it on what REALLY happened. It was basically a failed treasure hunt, but I'm dying to read again what Hubbard fabricated out of that misadventure to make himself into a god again.

    That's my two cents worth.
  5. Knows

    Knows Gold Meritorious Patron

    Another mind control Hubbard uses is the phrase "figure - figure" and I was told to not introvert and try to figure anything out - Ron has it all laid out on the Bridge to $nowhere$ "Figure Figure" in Scientology is an aberrative act and it is not allowed or it may mess up your case. And it may - if you think about what Scientology really is - you will leave and THAT is a high crime too! BAT SHIT CRAZY!!

    Wogs call it healthy critical thinking and it solves problems, keeps oneself and loved one's out of danger and helps one survive.

    Scientology calls it "keeping your ethics in" while they fleece you dry of all money, get your permission to do all of your thinking for you, tell you what and who is good, bad etc.

    What a clever mind controlling mechanism that obviously works.
  6. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    "But in Scientology we call it self Auditing"

    In Scientology we? LOLOLOL

    Cool post, plenty of laughs. Great satire.

    But just in case you were serious, here, let me help you:


    I have been operating in a suppressive valence on ESMB, betraying mankind and sabotaging our only hope that lies in The Bridge to Total Freedom.

    However, after reading jea-su's post, my bank collapsed and I felt shattered.

    Henceforth, I shall never post on ESMB evermore.

    This is okay.

    All rights hereby granted for you to to re-print and show the above success story to your ethics officer, as evidence of an effective blow.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  7. Claire Swazey

    Claire Swazey Spokeshole, fence sitter

    Hub contradicted himself like crazy on this, and so do staff. Impossible to get consistency from the organization, past or present, on this.

    I finally gave up, when I was in, figuring they don't want the competition, ideologically, and they also want 100% of members' time and money.
  8. Isme

    Isme Patron with Honors

    I always took it to mean they wanted to be sure that any wins came from the practice of Scientology and not from meditating, going to confession, attending a mass, reading Psychology 101, or anything else.

    I don't know if it was out of fear, or out of greed. Maybe some of both. Bullshit anyways to be told not to attend mass with your Catholic family or to be questioned after attending a funeral where you went to "church". I never saw anything wrong with going to church with my family and never felt the need to "tell" anyone.

    Hmmmm, it seems that they may use that to make people you know outside Scientology "appear" unreasonable and problematic. Something to think about.
  9. jea-su

    jea-su Patron

    Hi Knows and HelluvaHoax

    What I do not understand is how come you are so bitter about LRH Tech but at the same time you are applying in full the Tech on how to overwhelm (to put it gently) a communication line.

    For those who do not know this Technology or want to know what exactly some few people are trying to do read “ An Essay on Management” Volume 7 page 243 -1973 edition.

    This essay has been written in 1951 but you will be surprised how accurate it is.

    But some will continue to say it does not work but they never give specifics of what exactly does not work in it. Only generalities. What an SP does? S/he takes your rights away. You have to know your rights and you can stop s/he to take your rights away. That is it.
  10. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    If that were pointed out to me by someone here in the Church I'd ask for a reference. That is; is that from some book, a policy letter or what ?

    For an apparent direct quote it turns up noting on Google but another reference without attribution:"Dependency+on+other+mental+or+philosophical+procedures+than+Scientology"

    If the quote is accurate, I'd also say: Define "Dependency".

    I think there is a distinct difference between "practice" and dependency.

    Drinking a beer whenever one feels like it is not the same as "dependency" on alcohol. IMO.

    Also IMO it is a blaring disadvantage for Scientology to be having this kind of anti-spiritual, extremely vague and ill defined anti-meditation and "other spiritual practices" talk being loosely promulgated as if it is something "everybody knows".

    NOBODY putting this forward so far, in the Church here, has been able to support this "no meditation" rule with anything but conjecture. I have no problem however locating numerous references to the contrary.

    IMO, this apparently spurious rule or rumor or whatever it is, would certainly, by itself, tend to alienate whole continents and enormously large bodies of people from Scientology.

    Who with any kind of current or former religious background whatsoever would not be offended by it ?

    How can you give anyone "freedom" or "self-determinism" and say they have to have their very thoughts monitored continually so as not to be caught at the "High Crime" of thinking.

    Until someone PROVES with some actual iron clad reference that "meditation" is forbidden to Scientologists, I will assume that it is an unfounded rumor started by some so-called "suppressive" or otherwise uninformed opinion and nothing more.

    If anybody objects to my voicing that opinion and I get some kind of Ethics action taken on me, so be it. I'd welcome it. I'd like to get the issue settled once and for all. Right now it seems it went into a kind of limbo.

    I stated my case. Nobody has come up with any argument to refute it that holds water. In the mean time I'll continue to "think about" whatever I damn well please.
  11. billyd

    billyd Patron with Honors

    The debate of whether the Tech or parts of it work is not an issue with me. What is being done in the name of salvation however does. Just because one has Knowledge does not give one the right to ride rough shod over the rest of the planet. We have had enough of this witch burning bull shit.It didnt work for other religions and it certainly wont work for sciientology.
  12. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    To begin with, he mentions having been taught "astral projection" and "Asian practices" in general in "Book One" - Dianetics.

    The primary "Asian Practice" is "Mindfullness" meditation and/or Chackra meditation. Look up Asian practices anywhere, such as on Wikipedia. There is no other "Asian practice" besides meditation in one form or another.

    That's my question. Scientology is all about having everything explicitly defined. "meditation" could refer to practically any and all forms of mental activity. I don't find "meditation" in the Scientology tech dictionary anywhere. Scientology also forbids making blanket rules that would limit a group members freedom or self determinism for the sake of "expediency". I think this alleged prohibition against meditation falls into that category.

    Funny, but in a lecture I listened to recently, Hubbard said, regarding some advanced processes, Creative processing and Postulate processing I believe he was referring to... "You can do these processes by yourself, on yourself" and that "the liability" as far as self-auditing has been eliminated.

    Like "mock up" a geometric figure, such as a triangle. Turn it Black and White and other colors. Put it behind you, under you, move it all around. Make it large. Make it small, make dozens all around,... etc.

    I was doing this sort of "meditation" back in high school. It is quite common in "Asian practices" or mental type Yogas like Raja or Jhana Yoga. "Be three feet back of your head" - Well, is that supposed to be different from "mindfulness" where a person takes a detached viewpoint as-if standing behind themselves observing someone else ?

    And don't think I'm saying anything Hubbard didn't say himself.

    In another lecture he talks about how Scientology is indebted. "Boy are we indebted" He says "if we had to pay them all there wouldn't be anything left except a few funny cracks I made during a lecture".

    In, which one is it, one of the lectures, about 'Scientology, its background and history', he states rather plainly that Scientology traces back to Eastern culture, that there basically isn't anything in Scientology that can't be found in the Veda or Buddhism or elsewhere. This isn't me saying so. It's what Hubbard says himself, not just in the lectures but in the books.

    But I'm not "manipulating" anybody to do or think anything. I'm just arguing for people's (particularly my own) freedom of thought. Something I always had the impression, from reading the books, that Scientology strongly supported. Somehow people going around eying each other suspiciously to deduce if they might be "meditating" doesn't fit in with what I always thought Scientology was supposed to be about.
  13. Veda

    Veda Sponsor


    "There was a difference between the ideals inherent in the Dianetic hypothesis and the actions of the Foundation in its ostensible efforts to carry out these ideals. The ideals, as I saw them, included non-authoritarianism and a flexibility of approach. The ideals... continued to be given lip-service..."

    Dr. J.A. Winter, who wrote the Introduction for 'DMSMH' in 1950, from his book, 'A Doctor's Report on Dianetics', 1951.

    'Essay on Management' was mostly written by Richard DeMille:

    Russell Miller interview with DeMille:
  14. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Let's see. It would be in the book, 'Introduction to Scientology Ethics', and originally, as I recall, was in an HCOPL titled 'Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists', originally issued on 7 March 1965, and re-issued on 23 December 1965. It would also be in OEC (Green) Volume number 1, HCO.

    They might be going easy on you for the time being. "Easy gradients" and all that.

    Good! Keep everyone updated on how it goes. :)
  15. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    I think Hubbard changed his mind about that. Creative processing was said to stir up the case, BT-wise, IIRC.

    Thousands of "BTs" ("Body Thetans") are considered as being stuck to one's body. However, that's "upper level" data, and mentioning "BTs" to "raw meat" is not allowed.
  16. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    Yes, I've been on staff since January.

    Funny thing about it is, I thought one of the advantages of joining staff would be that I'd have plenty of time to talk to a lot of people with whom I have a common interest.

    As it turns out, more often than not nobody has any time to talk. It's always busy bust busy doing something.

    I spent more time talking to Scientologists when I was back home and they were calling on the phone.

    I'm having a really good time otherwise, for the most part. It's been more interesting than spending the winter sitting home putting logs on the fire anyway.

    I don't think that Harlem Org is really very typical. It's just getting off the ground. A rather rag-tag staff. Still short about 120 staff. We don't even have an Ethics Officer yet. I've mostly just been doing construction work. I just recently finished renovating the basement for a course room.

    I sometimes got pestered about not going on course. I'd say, "I think I have to finish building the course room first. Right ?"

    In general, I think that maybe things are a little different since Scientology became a recognized religion. On the other hand I don't really have a basis for comparison.
  17. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron

    "Mixing practices" is just one, of a variety of "escape clauses" which Scientology utilizes when the "tech" inevitably fails to work. It allows them to

    blame you for the failure of the "tech" to work.

    I write this as one who spent the better part of a quarter century immersed in their swamp.
  18. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    After the long rap introduction, at 1:22, two Harlem Org staff members appear, and the Executive Director of the Day Org appears towards the end.


    It's possible, because of the association with the Nation of Islam, you may be experiencing, at least for now, a more low key version of Scientology.
  19. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    Here's some videos about $cientology.

  20. Tom_Booth

    Tom_Booth Patron with Honors

    I don't know if it is still in print, but I did notice a few old copies in a box in the basement while helping someone move some stuff.