Meeting with OSA Canada

wiseman_of_the_watchtower

Patron with Honors
OSA did not know that I was 'out' until my father saw me with the book: I had just received my copy of "My Billion Year Contract" by Nancy Many, and he reacted just like any Scientologist would - he spent 5 hours trying to tell me that the book was evil, the author was "out ethics" and "insane" and he warned me "do NOT read that book! It could send you into a whole track implant!" This went on and off for over a month. While my dad fiercely attacked the author's intentions, he never agreed to read the book.

When OSA Canada got the word, the CO OSA, Yvette Shank, invited me down to the CLO to 'discuss the matter.' She said I didn't have anything to lose. She was right. I was already aware that my father was going to disconnect once I was declared. At least I would get a chance to express myself honestly since being out of the Sea Org.

When I arrived, I wanted to see for myself if this "security lockdown" was still in effect on me. As I walked into the front doors at 696 yonge st, sure enough, the receptionist jumped up from her seat, as if to block my path to the elevator. When she saw that I was with the CO OSA, she returned to her desk, looking a little agitated. She must be confused, I thought. Last time I walked into the building, we had a friendly chat. What a difference!

I sat with the CO in the conference room in OSA. This is a brief summary of our discussion:

CO OSA: The real enemy is the Psychiatrists and the World Bank...

Wiseman: I know, but that doesn't make it okay to anyone to treat me that way.

CO OSA: Your dad loves you. He doesn't want to lose you.

Wiseman: I know he loves me, but I am losing him. Why are you taking him from me?

CO OSA: Were not doing anything with him.

Wiseman: Well, you're declaring me because I don't like the way I was treated-

CO OSA: You restimulated something.

Wiseman: I have felt this way for nearly a year - how can this be my irrationality if it has lasted so long? I understand that Marty Rathbun hit people in the SO, so it is questionable that he claims DM did it.

But it isn't like "I tried to keep people from seeing their family, and now I'm blaming you for it". I never tried to trap people. I always felt people should get to see family.

You know, I somestimes want to believe that it was my fault, that the Sea Org is flawless, because it's hard to face the facts when they are this bad.

CO OSA: The reason you weren't authorized for your LOA is because you had a lower condition assigned.

Wiseman: There never was a "lower condition" Check my ethics file. It was just something Cope Off dreamed up, and then she told that to Snr I&R who believed it was real. My Disapproved CSW has no mention of a lower condition. I bet Cope Off or Snr I&R couldn't even tell you which type it was.

CO OSA: OK, so Snr I&R made a mistake. We all make mistakes, and this CLO is far from Ideal. It isn't easy getting to that level - it takes work.

Wiseman: What is Ideal? What direction are we going toward? From what I have seen, I think the 'ideal' Management org is a scary thing.

I recall a CMO INT mission called down here to handle the "out-ethics" in the base. The only thing I know that they did was to reduce mealbreaks from 45 minutes to 30 minutes.

CO OSA: Well, maybe we should change that back to 45 -

Wiseman That's not my point. The point is, that was an action by CofS International (Ideal management) and the product is: MORE restriction. With an attitude like that coming from Los Angeles, what do you think their attitude will be about letting people visit family? Which leads me to question what 'ideal' really means.

My family time was disapproved because I hadn't done any Basics sales: I disagreed with the way the sales were being pushed. In that case, a condition would have just been intended to force me into agreement with the stat push, which I would never agree with.

CO OSA: The Basics helps people when it is sold to them!

Wiseman: Not the way CLO Canada has been doing it. Each week for the past 18 months, the primary focus has always been money. Every time the quota is assigned, it is measured in dollars. $50,000 per week for CLO Canada, right? And it doesn't matter what it is: A sale was considered "one Basics package or 5 libraries", as long as it was worth $3,000, it counted. And we stayed up late if we didn't make enough money. And that was another order coming from int (ideal) management!

Just look at the way CMO Canada operates - what are they forcing on the rest of you? Helping people - No. Making money? Yes - Every day!

(SNR I&R Canada joins the meeting)

CO OSA: Well, they aren't running the place. I do carry out my own business, and we coordinate, but they -

Wiseman: Don't lie to me! I worked here for two years, and I know how it works. CMO Canada is in charge, and we do what they want. And they seem to want money. Every couple of days, CO CMOCAN would come down to the CO CLOs office and yell and scream, and she would say things like "Mike, I want more money!"

But money is not going to help people. Look at the CLO Org Board - look at the VFPs of a CLO. Or look at the VFPs of a Class V org. Nothing about money! Why aren't we accomplishing our VFPs?

SNR I&R: Look at the stats

Wiseman: YES! Look at the stats. TOTCASHCONT (Total Cash income for Continent) is up, sure. We've practically done nothing but sell stuff for the past year and a half, of course were making money. But there's another stat: Clears. And it is 0 for Canada. It has been flatlined for the past two years, and probably longer then that. But did you ever hear CO CMO yelling in the halls about "No clears?"

SNR I&R: wow, no... you're right...

Wiseman: I should know, I was the one who put the stat papers up in the hallway every week. I saw all the stats every time. But the first stat is TOTCASHCONT - And that is the only one CMO seems to care about.

All these actions are from orders that come from Int management. And I believe SNR I&R acted on Int mgmt orders when she was taking such extreme measures to trap me here, and followed orders when she was yelling and throwing books at me.

If that is the kind of behaviour that they demand from SNR HCO Canada, then I can only conclude that they operate that way themselves. That is why I believe that it is near impossible to escape from Int Base.

CO OSA: So you think that we're trapping people in the Sea Org? That's silly. If anyone wants to leave, they can do a routing form, and then go. We aren't forcing them to stay.

Wiseman: Well, I wanted to go - Not even permanently, I was coming back in a week - and what happened? I was yelled at, threatened, and put under close watch. I am not saying you physically trap people, but you do whatever it takes to convince them to stay - including heavy threats - and that is not okay with me.

CO OSA: I don't get it - If I wanted to leave, I would go on a routing form and -

Wiseman: and be made to do MEST work for months wh‎ile doing lower conditions which include having to decide between the group and some supposed 'enemy.' It is being used to convince a person to stay.

CO OSA:
It gives them a chance to think about it before making a final decision. If they still feel that they want to leave, then they leave.

Wiseman: Okay, well there's no doubt about you - you have been working in management for over a decade, and I do believe that you could get out if you decided to.

But, you and me are very self-determined people. We don't let anybody push us around... that is for sure.

But what about somebody who lacks the self determinism to stand up for themselves? I must admit that SNR I&R's yelling and threats scared the wits out of me. If I were any younger, or less determined, I would probably still be here, but not willingly.

CO OSA: Who do you feel is not here on their own determinism???

Wiseman: I dunno... That 14-year old boy who was recently recruited?

CO OSA: hmph...

SNR I&R: It's not like I wanted to stop you from seeing your family...

Wiseman: Well, maybe you didn't consciously try to stop me from seeing family. But that was the result, wasn't it? Even now when I am out of the Sea Org, you will cut me off from my father. So I still can't see him, even when I am not a member any more.

You see, when all this B.S. happened to me while I was in the Sea Org, I became aware of something. It is a force that is present within the combined actions of all members of the Sea Org. There are little things...

...Like, CMO staff aren't allowed to answer the phone! I don't know what the reasoning is, but it the result is that these people become so cut off from the rest of the world, that it's almost like they are in another universe.

... Or on the EPF, you aren't allowed to walk away from other members of the group, and you all work on the same task. It serves to make you forget about being your own self... You slowly lose individuality...

... Or how we don't get off work until 12AM. The result is you can't call your friends or family... They are all asleep. And it's hard to call during meal brakes - so little time. And no internet either. So the overall result is, you are slowly cut off from the world.

I don't know how to explain it to you. It isn't like SNR I&R sits in her office wickedly laughing, "ha ha ha I have trapped everyone here..." It is a mix of a bunch of different things. And Sea Org members become 'interiorized' into the building. It happened to me.

Its not easy to understand. But I think that you are not consious of the results of your actions. I know you mean well. I do. But you will only understand my point of view when you examine the overall result of what you are doing. That result was, definitely, I was not given permission to see my family.

(OSA and SNR I&R sit up nervously. They have had enough)

CO OSA: (Reads an LRH Letter, goes like this: people try to make nothing of the group when they fail to make nothing of the enemy... That is the main reason a group fails)

CO OSA: We don't like to have to declare people, but we do it if we need to. It really serves to show you what you need to do. It leaves the door open just a crack - and shows you how to get back in once you come to your senses.

And with that, the meeting was over. They sent a CSW to Los Angeles to get me declared. 2 Months later, it still hasn't come back.

I found out it's because they they are too busy with... selling stuff.

-Wiseman of the Watchtower
 
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Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
Wow! They can't even see what they are saying.

You're getting declared because you have an opinion that does NOT align with theirs. See, that little box that Scn puts each person in, or at least tries to put them in.
 

exsomessenger

Patron Meritorious
boy that sounds like a lot of Q and A to me. :confused2:

Where was the R factor and reference to policy, rince and repeat? :unsure:
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I learned quite awhile ago that is impossible to have a meaningful conversation with a box of hammers. Or, with a box of rocks.

These people, nearly all Sea Org members, and many Scientologists, are as SOLID as any hammer or rock! :yes:

And, an OSA staff member is an extreme case of both!!!!!!!

That is beacuse they are loaded with fixed ideas. These people have accepted, adopted and THINK WITH the entire Scientology paradigm as delineated by Hubby Dub the Tubby Flub. These people "see the world" THROUGH their belief system, and this makes them quite irrational, unintelligible and unapproachable with reason or common sense.

By buying into the Scientology framework they have created their own mental disability, and are unable in any way to have a conversation that goes OUTSIDE of their neat and tidy little box of beliefs and agreements.

They are BELIEVERS. As with ANY "true believer", they cannot be reasoned with. They see everything, interpret everything, and experience everything THROUGH the framework of their "belief system".

I won't even spend a second of my time tryng to have a conversation with a "believer" of ANY sort. Why? Because, they are cut off from the fruits of his or her own observation by their own FIXED IDEAS.

I toss all communications from Scientology into the garbage. Letters get junked. Phone messages get erased. Why bother? There is NOBODY actualy on the end of the line! :omg:

It is impossible to have a meaningful conversation with a ROCK. As regards Scientology, pretty much the same idea applies. Why waste your time? I never felt good "speaking my mind", because it was clear that NOBODY WAS THERE ON THE OTHER END RECEIVING ANYTHING THAT I SAID. :confused2:
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I never felt good "speaking my mind", because it was clear that NOBODY WAS THERE ON THE OTHER END RECEIVING ANYTHING THAT I SAID. :confused2:

Not totally true. People do leave when it gets to be too much, although it might take a long while. Every little bit helps. It adds up.

Paul
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Not totally true. People do leave when it gets to be too much, although it might take a long while. Every little bit helps. It adds up.

Paul

Good point. I was only looking at it from "my" viewpoint. From a "pan-determined" viewoint though, of "helping the trapped to get untrapped", YES, the making of ones point CAN be good. They get sucked in on a gradient, and they can be pulled out on a gradient.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
I learned quite awhile ago that is impossible to have a meaningful conversation with a box of hammers. Or, with a box of rocks.

These people, nearly all Sea Org members, and many Scientologists, are as SOLID as any hammer or rock! :yes:

And, an OSA staff member is an extreme case of both!!!!!!!

That is beacuse they are loaded with fixed ideas. These people have accepted, adopted and THINK WITH the entire Scientology paradigm as delineated by Hubby Dub the Tubby Flub. These people "see the world" THROUGH their belief system, and this makes them quite irrational, unintelligible and unapproachable with reason or common sense.

By buying into the Scientology framework they have created their own mental disability, and are unable in any way to have a conversation that goes OUTSIDE of their neat and tidy little box of beliefs and agreements.

They are BELIEVERS. As with ANY "true believer", they cannot be reasoned with. They see everything, interpret everything, and experience everything THROUGH the framework of their "belief system".

I won't even spend a second of my time tryng to have a conversation with a "believer" of ANY sort. Why? Because, they are cut off from the fruits of his or her own observation by their own FIXED IDEAS.

I toss all communications from Scientology into the garbage. Letters get junked. Phone messages get erased. Why bother? There is NOBODY actualy on the end of the line! :omg:

It is impossible to have a meaningful conversation with a ROCK. As regards Scientology, pretty much the same idea applies. Why waste your time? I never felt good "speaking my mind", because it was clear that NOBODY WAS THERE ON THE OTHER END RECEIVING ANYTHING THAT I SAID. :confused2:

How low is a Hammer or a Rock on the Tone Scale ?
 

wiseman_of_the_watchtower

Patron with Honors
~~~~~
I like this quote!

Thank you for sharing this!

~~~~~~~

Oh dear, she really does like that quote... read her featured posts...

russiangirl: that isn't true. SP Declare is a way to Silence a Person. It prevents you from warning your friends that they are not really helping, that their time is wasted.

It is a political move. It doesn't mean anything to you. It only has meaning to the people who believe that the goldenrod paper is the truth.

-Wiseman of the Watchtower
 

thefiredragon

Patron Meritorious
Oh dear, she really does like that quote... read her featured posts...

russiangirl: that isn't true. SP Declare is a way to Silence a Person. It prevents you from warning your friends that they are not really helping, that their time is wasted.

It is a political move. It doesn't mean anything to you. It only has meaning to the people who believe that the goldenrod paper is the truth.

-Wiseman of the Watchtower
~~~~~
Oh, I'm sorry,You missunderstood me.
I like that quote because it's so funny! Not because i realy like it.
I did not mean to offend anybody!
 

Kookaburra

Gold Meritorious Patron
I didn't even know there was a CMO in Canada. Just what they need. Another level of incompetant, no product execs to scream, shout, and give orders to other execs to give orders to their junior execs to give orders to the org execs to give orders to their staff. And there'll still be only 3 or 4 people producing all the training and auditing completions. Crazy f***ing cult. :melodramatic:
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
I didn't even know there was a CMO in Canada. Just what they need. Another level of incompetant, no product execs to scream, shout, and give orders to other execs to give orders to their junior execs to give orders to the org execs to give orders to their staff. And there'll still be only 3 or 4 people producing all the training and auditing completions. Crazy f***ing cult. :melodramatic:



Too many chiefs, not enough indians.

It's a condition not peculiar to scientology, but scientology has taken the concept to new levels of waste and idiocy.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Too many chiefs, not enough indians.

It's a condition not peculiar to scientology, but scientology has taken the concept to new levels of waste and idiocy.

Scientology is a wonderful example of "bureaucracy gone insanely amuck".
 

Wisened One

Crusader
:goodposting: :clap: :goodposting: :yes: Excellently put! :thumbsup:

I learned quite awhile ago that is impossible to have a meaningful conversation with a box of hammers. Or, with a box of rocks.

These people, nearly all Sea Org members, and many Scientologists, are as SOLID as any hammer or rock! :yes:

And, an OSA staff member is an extreme case of both!!!!!!!

That is beacuse they are loaded with fixed ideas. These people have accepted, adopted and THINK WITH the entire Scientology paradigm as delineated by Hubby Dub the Tubby Flub. These people "see the world" THROUGH their belief system, and this makes them quite irrational, unintelligible and unapproachable with reason or common sense.

By buying into the Scientology framework they have created their own mental disability, and are unable in any way to have a conversation that goes OUTSIDE of their neat and tidy little box of beliefs and agreements.

They are BELIEVERS. As with ANY "true believer", they cannot be reasoned with. They see everything, interpret everything, and experience everything THROUGH the framework of their "belief system".

I won't even spend a second of my time tryng to have a conversation with a "believer" of ANY sort. Why? Because, they are cut off from the fruits of his or her own observation by their own FIXED IDEAS.

I toss all communications from Scientology into the garbage. Letters get junked. Phone messages get erased. Why bother? There is NOBODY actualy on the end of the line! :omg:

It is impossible to have a meaningful conversation with a ROCK. As regards Scientology, pretty much the same idea applies. Why waste your time? I never felt good "speaking my mind", because it was clear that NOBODY WAS THERE ON THE OTHER END RECEIVING ANYTHING THAT I SAID. :confused2:
 

HCObringOrder?

Silver Meritorious Patron
Oh dear, she really does like that quote... read her featured posts...

russiangirl: that isn't true. SP Declare is a way to Silence a Person. It prevents you from warning your friends that they are not really helping, that their time is wasted.

It is a political move. It doesn't mean anything to you. It only has meaning to the people who believe that the goldenrod paper is the truth.

-Wiseman of the Watchtower


But it is a Great Quote!
Your whole story above is outstanding!

The delare is not only a silence.
It is a Make Wrong, with the whole Reality of Millions Of Scientologists World Wide behind it.
It is the I/gnore and W/ithdraw from your Reach.
It is the You Are Crazy for not thinking of things the Way We Think Them.

Because if you do not think like the Group, then you are not welcome any more.
Hive mind.

Well done for your outstanding actions!
:yes:
 

wiseman_of_the_watchtower

Patron with Honors
CMO Canada

Once referred to as "Snow White and the Seven dwarves" CMO Canada is a group of 8 women, the Chief (CO CMO) being about 6'2"tall, 40 Years old, and then 7 other girls ranging from 14 to 23 years old, none as tall as the Chief. Every night they walk out of the elevator in single file, exaclty in order of their rank, and they only socialize with one or two other girls in their rank level, even though there is only 8 of them.

They all have a cell phone, and often make urgent phone calls to each other, always the same question "Where are you?" And the answer: I am just downstairs from you, sir!" or something similar...

Sad thing is, the "Sir" part is not the strangest part. Its the phone calls to each other. They're never more then 100 feet apart all day!


-Wiseman of the Watchtower

I didn't even know there was a CMO in Canada. Just what they need. Another level of incompetant, no product execs to scream, shout, and give orders to other execs to give orders to their junior execs to give orders to the org execs to give orders to their staff. And there'll still be only 3 or 4 people producing all the training and auditing completions. Crazy f***ing cult. :melodramatic:
 
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