Metering & Needle Phenomena in Auditing

OK, I read them. Both of them. Are you seriously saying that you consider those treatises more than hornswagglerish eyewash?

That the 'current' of the e-meter actually travels over the *nerves*?

Actually, I've heard this before; may have read them on ACT possibly, but, they do reflect a common 'theory' in the FZ and possibly Scientology itself, but, it has nothing to do with how GSR functions.

Zinj


Key passage:

"Since there are something
like a hundred million nerves in the hands, the
individual firings are lost in the noise, but the
aggregate rate of firing is going to be the single
most important determinant of how much current flows.

So now we have the meter actually responding to the
aggregate rate of nerve firing, at least between the
sections of the brain (one side to the other)
connecting the hand nerves. Fortunately the brain has
all sorts of connections all over it, so the net
effect is that the meter will monitor overall brain
activity.

It does not respond to mass, or skin resistance
(except the latter in a gross, overall sense). It
responds to the brain."

The prior posts and the above summary presents an overall plausible explanation for the actual functioning of the meter. The gentleman who wrote it is quite familiar with the chemical & electrical engineering aspects of the problem. He's something of an expert in the area himself.

Sorry you don't like the proffered explanation. However, your past comments & background don't suggest any particular expertise in the area yourself. :D


Mark A. Baker
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Key passage:

"Since there are something
like a hundred million nerves in the hands, the
individual firings are lost in the noise, but the
aggregate rate of firing is going to be the single
most important determinant of how much current flows.

So now we have the meter actually responding to the
aggregate rate of nerve firing, at least between the
sections of the brain (one side to the other)
connecting the hand nerves. Fortunately the brain has
all sorts of connections all over it, so the net
effect is that the meter will monitor overall brain
activity.

It does not respond to mass, or skin resistance
(except the latter in a gross, overall sense). It
responds to the brain."

The prior posts and the above summary presents an overall plausible explanation for the actual functioning of the meter.

Hey Mark,

Do you know how this explanation relates to, say, the number of nerve endings in the hands and soles of the feet as compared to other skin areas? I had a look online but couldn't really find anything relevant, but maybe I don't know enough to hunt down relevant references. I found one saying the number in the fingertips is about twice that of the palm, which is a start.

Paul
 
Hey Mark,

Do you know how this explanation relates to, say, the number of nerve endings in the hands and soles of the feet as compared to other skin areas? I had a look online but couldn't really find anything relevant, but maybe I don't know enough to hunt down relevant references. I found one saying the number in the fingertips is about twice that of the palm, which is a start.

Paul

Not sure about your question, nor am I by any means expert in matters biological. Clearly the richness of nerve endings in the hands facilitates the relative efficiency of hand electrodes. I know also from some recent reading that the high proportion of nerve endings in the hands is further evidenced by the disproportionately large section of the brain's cortical region that normally processes signals from the hands and fingers. That in turn should amplify the "total contribution to signal" detected by hand electrodes. However, it doesn't necessarily represent a fixed amount of the cortical region. Research in the last two decades has evidently verified that the brain alters & adapts it's distribution of processing depending on the specific stimuli that reach the brain.


Mark A. Baker
 

KnightVision

Gold Meritorious Patron
The only reason someone would *think* that an electrical meter would be necessary to self improvement is lack of perception. And that lack will have the un-savvy sort on a never ending *guess what* journey that will lead to various perceptions... none of them likely to wake him up to his initial lack of perception. A lack of perception is nothing more that being uncomfortable with what is perceivable in this moment. *Note*... perception is not what one can imagine.
 

RogerB

Crusader
YOu Got Me Thinking . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Hilton View Post
Only certain parts of the body give reads. The skin on the hands and feet works but the skin on other parts of the body gives a higher resistance. Skin on the fingertips is the most responsive then the palms then the feet. I've checked every part of the body (yes, there

Quote: Paul
That's very interesting, Ralph. What known body factors does this correlate to?

Paul

Hey you got me thinking, Paul. Could it be that all other parts of the body have a layer of sub-cutaneous fat that the hands and feet lack? I wonder how resistive to electrical flow fat is?

The proposition that meter reads are influenced or dependent upon abundance of nerve lines would be easy to test based on the fact that the lips, fingers/hands and head of penis are inordinately richer in nerves than elsewhere on the body

Rog
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Hey you got me thinking, Paul. Could it be that all other parts of the body have a layer of sub-cutaneous fat that the hands and feet lack? I wonder how resistive to electrical flow fat is?

The proposition that meter reads are influenced or dependent upon abundance of nerve lines would be easy to test based on the fact that the lips, fingers/hands and head of penis are inordinately richer in nerves than elsewhere on the body

Rog

Great. So test it. :)

Paul
 
The only reason someone would *think* that an electrical meter would be necessary to self improvement is lack of perception. And that lack will have the un-savvy sort on a never ending *guess what* journey that will lead to various perceptions... none of them likely to wake him up to his initial lack of perception. A lack of perception is nothing more that being uncomfortable with what is perceivable in this moment. *Note*... perception is not what one can imagine.

The last bit. The *note* is something some people will never get, which may itself be a lack of perception.
 

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
Experimental Results

Ability 3A meter and solo cans, using a rubber glove to apply the pressure ...

Flat palm 5.15
Tummy 5.6
Leg 5.7
Biceps 5.8

Cheek 6.5
sole of foot 4.7
fingers (flat) 5.95
standard hand grip 3.8

arm pit 5.0
soft shoulder 5.45
flabby belly (right) 4.85
neck and chin 5.6
flabby belly (left) 4.2

done 5 minutes ago.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
What's needed is a test using a one-hand can and an insulated nail pounded into the brain (with only its tip conductive) :)

Zinj
 

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
How about comparative read sizes?
I have no idea how you could do that. I recall LRH talking about getting known reads from terminals, or goals, or such, that kept repeating at the same size. I have never experienced that and would find it hard to believe you could get a standardised read like that. What I would say is that for a given change in resistance, if the TA is higher it will mask the read more.

In other words less skin contact and you won't see the same size read. Total skin area is clearly key. In the (gross) roll the cans into folds of tummy fat test, you get more skin contact and a lower TA. No big surprise.

I tried a metab read but it is difficult to breath in deeply whilst not moving wads of tummy lard. :bigcry:

Perhaps the biggest problem is the Thetan. The TA tends to be active (for me) so getting it to stay still is a problem. The more you concentrate on it, the more likely it is to Protest and go high.:yes:
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
It should be fairly easy to rig up a waveform generator that could produce 'standard' reads.

Then you just try sending the same 'signal' through different areas. The only difference would be in the amplitude.

Zinj
 

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
It should be fairly easy to rig up a waveform generator that could produce 'standard' reads.

Then you just try sending the same 'signal' through different areas. The only difference would be in the amplitude.
Yes, that would be easy. But what would it prove? All you are measuring then is the conductivity to the pulse.

The point is more like "do you get reads at different parts of the body?" And are they due to variations in the Aura, ionic conductivity, muscle tension, or the manifestation of a pan-dimensional being interacting with a MEST body.:whistling:
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Yes, that would be easy. But what would it prove? All you are measuring then is the conductivity to the pulse.

The point is more like "do you get reads at different parts of the body?" And are they due to variations in the Aura, ionic conductivity, muscle tension, or the manifestation of a pan-dimensional being interacting with a MEST body.:whistling:

Well, you'd just be testing the physical characteristics of 'different' paths.

It wouldn't say much about 'reads'; just how a particular path works relatively speaking.

N matter how abhora your aura...

Actually, my point would be that I'd like to see the common misconception in Scientology debunked that the 'brain' is somehow in 'circuit' with the e-meter. More likely I suspect is that the brain is in its *own* circuit (actually, not a 'circuit' at all) with the volar layer/sweat glands and operates like the signal terminal on a transistor, allowing or resisting 'current' that goes nowhere near the brain.


Zinj
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I have no idea how you could do that.

If you have two meters and are testing one against the other, you can do it with two sets of cans. I've done it holding the cans (as in solo) for meter A in the left hand, and the cans for meter B in the right hand. Ralph has done it holding one A can and one B can in each hand.

With one meter only, it's tricky. The TA doesn't matter too much, apart from the fact that a higher TA means it will read less for that reason alone, so you can only really compare reads when the TAs are similar. With one meter, just look at the general characteristics of the needle motions for ten seconds or so.

Have you got two meters? It helps with an assistant too to fiddle with the TA etc. Then hold one set of cans in the hands solo and the other set on the thigh (say). Adjust the amount of skin touching the cans in your hand (just move the cans further apart) until the TAs are the same.

Paul
 

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
If you have two meters and are testing one against the other, you can do it with two sets of cans.
I think you would need at least two meters and an assistant. Trying to get the cans pressed into the chest, and set the TA ...:confused2:

All this certainly exceeds my interest level!

If the TA soaring means protest or overrun then that is something to work with. If the reason is the Thetan impinging via the aura, or via muscle tension or via the lymphatic system it is, almost, of academic interest.

It's more convenient to hold cans than have one can between the butt cheeks and a croc clip on the scrotum. :melodramatic: :whistling:
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
What it *means* is probably that the emeter is registering changes in conductivity of the volar layer.

What the needle bounces on an undamped 'meter' mean are akin to asking what the twists in entrails of a newly slaughtered calf mean.

Zinj
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
What it *means* is probably that the emeter is registering changes in conductivity of the volar layer.

Zinj: If you Google "volar layer" it produces virtually nothing. Are you inventing some terminology here? Could you use something a bit more agreed upon?

Paul
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
More likely I suspect is that the brain is in its *own* circuit (actually, not a 'circuit' at all) with the volar layer/sweat glands and operates like the signal terminal on a transistor, allowing or resisting 'current' that goes nowhere near the brain.

That makes sense anyway.

Nick
 
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