Mike Rinder and Sara Goldberg take heat from Scientologists

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From the Underground Bunker:

‘Going Clear’ Q&A: Mike Rinder and Sara Goldberg take heat from Scientologists
Filmmaker Mark Bunker attended the event, and afterwards called us to let us know that a couple of Scientologists — one of them Sara Goldberg’s former husband — had launched personal attacks on Sara and Rinder, leading to a chaotic shouting match.

Bunker captured it on video for us, and we’ll let you tell us who got the better of it. The excitement begins at about 18 minutes in.

http://tonyortega.org/2015/10/03/go...-sara-goldberg-take-heat-from-scientologists/

Very impressed with Mike's speech and Sara's passion. Worth watching the whole video.
 
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Shiny & Free
Some comments:

Alanzo • 12 hours ago

Wow. Way too upsetting, way too early, to watch Mike Rinder and Sarah Goldberg get personally attacked by that asshole Scientologist.

I would say that Mike and Sarah wiped the floor with the guy, and that we are all lucky that they had the courage and the responsibility to stand up in that theater in Clearwater, Florida and to tell the truth about Scientology.

Thank you Mike and Sarah. You guys are my fucking heroes.

Alanzo


L. Wrong Hubturd Mark Foster • 10 hours ago

Skip past the lunatics and watch to the end. Mike Rinder is very powerful and persuasive on the mic. Thank goodness he's on the right side now.

Have a walk and play your bass. Be well, Mark.


Andrea 'i-Betty' Garner • 11 hours ago

I've just reached the part where Mike discusses how toothless Scientology is these days: "they took their best shot at Marty, they took their best shot at me, and they failed". How wonderfully empowering to be standing in the cult's back yard and speaking that truth.
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Can someone tell me where the scream fest happens? I don't have an hour to watch it all :(
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
..

I watched the entire presentation.

It was excellent. Mike Rinder spoke with outstanding clarity and insight.

The two (2) Scientology goons who snuck into the theater after the Going Clear documentary had already played were world class cult zombies. Their fanaticism had all the bells and whistles that the world directly associates with Scientology--obnoxious, overbearing, bullying, lying, screaming, "dead agenting" and that most sacred piece of advanced technology-- trying to cave in SPs by using their bank to restimulate and enturbulate them.

Yeah, that's what Scientologists do if someone doesn't agree with them or tries to practice free speech. They incite conflict (war) using sociopathic terror tactics (insanity) and happily break any law that they think they can get away with (criminality) in the process.

"A world without war, without insanity, without criminality" L. Ron Hubbard.

Sure, we believe you Ron.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Mike Rinder seems hopelessly impaled on Hubbard's pointy religion angle. He ignores a wealth of information distilled by people such as Margaret Singer, Robert Lifton, and Steven Hassan. He makes a lot of good points, yet his affirming of Scientology's most empowering gimmick: its religious cloaking, largely nullifies his message.

Scientology is not a faith based religion, but a deceptive mind-control cult that disguises itself as a religion.


Combatting_Cult_Mind_Control.jpg
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Mike Rinder seems hopelessly impaled on Hubbard's pointy religion angle. He ignores a wealth of information distilled by people such as Margaret Singer, Robert Lifton, and Steven Hassan. He makes a lot of good points, yet his affirming of Scientology's most empowering gimmick: its religious cloaking, largely nullifies his message.

Scientology is not a faith based religion, but a deceptive mind-control cult that disguises itself as a religion.


Combatting_Cult_Mind_Control.jpg


Yeah, but in spite of the fact that Mike hasn't figured it all out yet, he still merits the Church of Hoaxology's Kha-Khan status for being one of the COS (Crimewave of Scientology's) worst nightmares.

Having former Int'l Spokesman Mike Rinder (--and other elite Int'l Mgt Execs Marty Rathbun, Mark Headley, Karen De La Carriere, Jeff Hawkins, Amy Scobee, Nancy Many et al...) publicly turn against their former cult, is like sending the nation's best Seal Team 6 to kill the SP and then midway during their chopper ride to Osama Bin Laden's secret fortress in Abbottabad Pakistan, they change their mind and reverse course, heading back to California to, dispose of another terrorist (COB) instead, without sorrow.

When you are a cult leader and meticulously train and indoctrinate fanatic black ops specialists for 30-plus years--so they can destroy the enemy--it really sucks when they cognite that you are the enemy.


 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
lol footbulletologists

very nice of them to show up and demonstrate everything the critics say about them are true!

Exactly, and how do they not see that? It's extraordinary.

1) People say that you harass critics.
2) Turn up to a public meeting and harass critics in order to convince them that you do not harass critics.

A normal human brain can see an inherent flaw in using this strategy to win a PR war.

So now it becomes obvious that not only is it true they harass critics, but their brains don't function normally.

Also, they can't even say they've changed.

People have had cameras since the 90s.

The behavior has been consistently documented since the 90s.

So they can't learn or adapt. Their strategy is guaranteed to fail. They can't stop.

To recap, they convince us that they do harass critics, they don't have normal thinking processes and they cannot adapt when they fail.

How can they not see this as absolute failure? How can they not see they are facilitating the destruction of their organization?
 

Jump

Operating teatime
...

How can they not see this as absolute failure? How can they not see they are facilitating the destruction of their organization?


I'd say they don't 'see' anything at all. They just blindly follow Hubbard.



And don't think David Miscavige is squirrelling the tech. He is as 'on source' as Hoaxard ever was.
 

programmer_guy

True Ex-Scientologist
Exactly, and how do they not see that? It's extraordinary.

1) People say that you harass critics.
2) Turn up to a public meeting and harass critics in order to convince them that you do not harass critics.

A normal human brain can see an inherent flaw in using this strategy to win a PR war.

So now it becomes obvious that not only is it true they harass critics, but their brains don't function normally.

Also, they can't even say they've changed.

People have had cameras since the 90s.

The behavior has been consistently documented since the 90s.

So they can't learn or adapt. Their strategy is guaranteed to fail. They can't stop.

To recap, they convince us that they do harass critics, they don't have normal thinking processes and they cannot adapt when they fail.

How can they not see this as absolute failure? How can they not see they are facilitating the destruction of their organization?


It's because a narcissistic leader cannot stop being a narcissist any more than a leopard can change its spots.
It would require an outright mutiny to occur to change CofS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_in_the_workplace

The major, most important, personality defect in narcissists is lack of empathy for another human being in what they actually do and not what they say.
 
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arcxcauseblows

Patron Meritorious
well their only option is to apply hubbard's pr tech which is harass critics, and they can't question it when his tech fails to work

and if it fails it's their fault for not applying it correctly

cognative dissonance on rollerskates

hard to con the world when the world knows your con beforehand
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
...cognative dissonance on rollerskates...

Excellent.

I watched it all. Well worth the time.

I agree. What goes on in the 18 minutes before the 'handling' is interesting and what goes on afterwards is interesting.

I particularly like the way they talk about the two OSA operatives in the later questions as examples of people who haven't read about OTIII yet and don't believe it or who will always harass critics but the real problem is institutionalization of harassment.

It is very surreal. Listen to the moments AFTER the 'handling' and imagine how you would feel if you were one of those OSA guys. They are discussing the discrepancies between the truth and what Scientologists believe and how they process it right in front of them.

Mike says the people who are in who knew him wouldn't even know he's blown. OSA would know that is true. People would be shocked by it. They would know he is disseminating the truth.

How long til one of those clowns blows and starts talking about this from the other side?
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
Exactly, and how do they not see that? It's extraordinary.

1) People say that you harass critics.
2) Turn up to a public meeting and harass critics in order to convince them that you do not harass critics.

A normal human brain can see an inherent flaw in using this strategy to win a PR war.

So now it becomes obvious that not only is it true they harass critics, but their brains don't function normally.

Also, they can't even say they've changed.

People have had cameras since the 90s.

The behavior has been consistently documented since the 90s.

So they can't learn or adapt. Their strategy is guaranteed to fail. They can't stop.

To recap, they convince us that they do harass critics, they don't have normal thinking processes and they cannot adapt when they fail.

How can they not see this as absolute failure? How can they not see they are facilitating the destruction of their organization?

You forget that they are applying Standard Technology, proscribed by Mankind's Greatest Friend, as laid out in their Sacred Scriptures.

And, per the "Know to Mystery Scale" (a part of those very same Sacred Scriptures,) Lookingness is much lower and thus much less desirable a State of Spiritual Existence as Knowingness - Tone 40.

And all $cientologists strive for Tone 40 - they KNOW with a conviction that they CAN command these "Wogs" to do whatever is needed if they could just get the Wogs' Reactive Minds out of the way with a ruthless application of Standard Ethics, Tech and Admin.

Life for a $cientologist is surprisingly simple. It's SPs and Wogs that make it complicated.
 
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Veda

Sponsor
Yeah, but in spite of the fact that Mike hasn't figured it all out yet,

:) Well, it does take time, that's true.


For example... Some of Mike Rinder's views on Hubbard, from 2 years and 10 months ago:



1439522.jpg

"He didn't know."



mrinder December 17, 2012 at 1:11 am

Not sure where you get your information from that LRH approved operations against Paulette Cooper or Gabe Cazares? Or are you asserting this based on the logic of “it was his organization so therefore he knew”?

mrinder December 17, 2012 at 4:42 pm

Clearly you didn't know Mary Sue Hubbard. If you had you would understand how silly this is. He is the LAST person on earth she would tell about illegal actions. Your assumptions are just that, and certainly not based on anything other than “Most dogs are brown. He has a dog. Therefore his dog is brown.” The outpoint in your conclusion is “assume similarities are not similar.”

mrinder December 17, 2012 at 5:24 pm

Yeah, that’s Tonja Burden. Who filed a civil case trying to collect money. There was TONS of shredding done in the paranoia to eradicate anything that gave ANY connection between LRH and the GO. It was nuts and unreal. But I do not believe ANY documents ever indicated any connection between LRH and an “operative” doing some illegal act.

But this is a debate that is pointless continuing. It’s unprovable either way. And no matter what I say, it won’t satisfy those who wish to believe otherwise.​



______


Then, from a year and a half ago:


hubbard-and-miscavige-2.jpg

"He knew."



mrinder on March 11, 2014 at 1:48 pm

< snip >

Just for starters, DM most certainly was Action Chief CMO Int. For MANY years. It was where he gained the trust of LRH and LRH started calling him “Misc” and addressing despatches to him that way. One of the few people that LRH addressed on despatches with cc’s to their nickname. Miscavige was NOT Mission IC of “Special Project”, Terri Gamboa was. Miscavige was “Special Pjt Ops” (as in Mission Operator).

Ron absolutely abolished the GO. The Exec Strata was formed and the issues written about it before the formation of OSA. I had personal conversations with LRH about the disbandment of the GO and his desire to see it eradicated entirely as it had become a liability. You do not think that the GO was disbanded without his knowledge and Guardian PL canceled etc etc etc. Where are the docs? They don’t exist, remember, LRH was trying to avoid being connected in any way to the actions of the GO or Mary Sue, he was an unindicted co-conspirator.

Nothing was in writing. And though he had expressed a LOT of disgust about the GO during the “Confront of Evil” period and the formation of the Office of Evaluation and Execution, where it came up routinely that GO staff were employing org staff in their personal business, the reason for disbanding the GO was that they were not protecting him from criminal and civil liability. He considered they had betrayed him (inclusive of Mary Sue).

The idea that he knew nothing about Snow White and the illegal acts that were ongoing is tantamount to saying L. Ron Hubbard was blind, unaware and incapable of spotting an outpoint. That was NOT the case. He was briefed by Mary Sue every single day at lunch during the heyday of the GO Ops — in detail. If she didnt tell him “Joe Blow infiltrated the IRS and got documents” she told him what they knew (if you don’t believe he expected to be briefed about everything the GO was doing, then you also give him less credit than he deserved, he was not one not to be curious) and he would have figured it out. Believe me, the programs and actions written to implement Snow White WERE know[n] and authorized all the way to the top.

LRH directed exactly what was to be done at the Mission Holders Conference in SFO following the one in Clearwater. The whole thing was recorded so it could be sent to him. He listened to it, sent Miscavige and the others commendations and ordered that the entire transcript be published.



http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...king-derringer&p=967138&viewfull=1#post967138


______​


The only explanation for the change was a change in what Mike Rinder was willing to say. In the top quote he's covering for Ron Hubbard. In the bottom quote he's not covering for Ron Hubbard.

That's a change, a major change, and a change in the right direction. From my observations such changes have been ongoing and continuing, which is why I'm optimistic that more changes are to come.

he still merits the Church of Hoaxology's Kha-Khan status for being one of the COS (Crimewave of Scientology's) worst nightmares.

-snip-


Well, I think he's a disturbing dream to the crime wave of Scientology, but not quite a nightmare :biggrin:, so forgive me for not having "VVVGIs" or writing a "rave success story" quite yet, or awarding him "Kha-Khan status."

I'd rather be a party pooper along with Steven Hassan, who annoyed some with his lack of full "VVVGIs" in this video from a while back:

[video=youtube;CDTW2d6CQNA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDTW2d6CQNA[/video]


When he could possibly bring down the house of cards, Rinder is just making it quiver, which is still exciting to watch, but somewhat disappointing.

And speaking of quivering...


[video=youtube;b98QpudoX2g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b98QpudoX2g[/video]
Watch as Tommy Davis retreats from the scientific religion angle to Scientology's faith based religion angle.


Both "angles" are used by Scientology when expedient.


When you are a cult leader and meticulously train and indoctrinate fanatic black ops specialists for 30-plus years--so they can destroy the enemy--it really sucks when they cognite that you are the enemy.


It certainly sucks for them, but they're probably becoming accustomed to it - at least the ones who've been around for a while. Rinder is not the first Scientology leader to defect and turn "enemy." That's been occurring since the earliest days of Scientology.
 
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mrtampa2

Patron
Those two yelling guys were new OSA staffs trying to apply How to handle Black PR in a really bad robotic way. Basically they are trying to totally make the people giving the presentation totally discredited. In this case it totally backfired on them.

While in Scientology you can watch TV or read newspaper. However in the Sea Org it is forbidden. In 2003 they have introduced the External Influence Course which teaches members to avoid any newspaper TV etc - as watching things about Scientology from outside world would be out-ethics.
 
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