Mike Rinder

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
I have never worked with/for OSA.
I have never had close connection with Mike Rinder (or any of his staff).

What's the problem about Mike Rinder? (some have)

To me, he's been there, done that, finally (luckily!!!) got out of it.

Now he's trying to get his wits around (and trying to get his family out of it as well)

Yes, he's been known as THE head of OSA. Is he now?

- I tell you he wasn't and isn't a bad person. - If he's been a bad seed then you're a bad seed as well.
- Are you? Do you consider youself to be a bad seed?

Mike Rinder has HIS way to come to what he considers truth. - Not you. Not me.

If you consider him as a persona non grata (here, on ESMB, or in your personal life) it's YOUR problem.

You've got to have it solved. - WITHOUT shitting bricks all over the Internet.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
He was head of the entire thing. For years.

If you read about OSA and the things it's done, that might show why a number of people are concerned.

Also, Rinder's not saying much of anything about that time. I don't think people are convinced he's remorseful.
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Rinder IS vs. Rinder WAS.

There is a difference.

I WAS a gullible SO member who acted like a robot "to forward Command Intention"

Was he a criminal who knew what he was doing during all those years??
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Another Rinder thread? - Yes.

I got tired of hearing how some (won't call their names) were ready to go to extremities if only Rinder "told true stories"

Honestly, I haven't read those threads about Rinder but I assume every thread here before this one contained accusations of Mike Rinder rather than letting him be a person he is and wants to be.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
VaD... start here...
I've known Mike, to some degree or other, for over 15 years.

I am sure he has made life hell for quite a number of people through his OSA activities.

Does someone really think he did this out of "bad will toward people?"

Or do you think he did it because he believed, through years of indoctrination into LRH policy, that this was the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics and that he was safeguarding mankinds only salvation by fighting SPs?

I believe he did it for the latter reason.

Do you really want revenge for having been fooled by LRH?

I was. Weren't you?

I would only expect people who really think Mike worked as the head of OSA because he wanted to hurt people to say he should now "pay back."

You have no idea how much he has already "paid," what kind of life he has lead due to his previous position, due to his close connection to DM.

Isn't it enough that he came to his senses and has shown the rest of the world that not even the most dedicated of Scientologists no longer agree with the way DM is "managing" his religion? (Because it now is DM's religion) That he doesn't think the Church delivers what it promises?

Isn't it enough that he suffered months in the "SP Room"?

Isn't it enough that his wife and daughter are still on the base, and they are not let out?

Isn't that enough of payback?

All I would ask of him, personally, would be to tell the truth about Scientology, its current management and what he knows about DMs takeover, motivations, activities and plans.

I don't think he will ever be able to live in peace with himself unless he does.

But, as with all of us, it is his decision.

I welcome him to the outside world.

It'll take him time to recover, he has more to recover from than any of us.

He was fooled the same the rest of were, just deeper, so his crash in coming to grips with reality will be deeper accordingly.

I believe we automatically "pay the price" when we leave by what we have to come to grips with, in proportion to how thoroughly we allowed ourselves to do things against our own judgment, for "the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics," no matter how wrong it felt, deep inside.

As far as I am concerned, he is now one of us, no better, no worse.

Amen.

Amen
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Seriously, VaD. Lurk. Please. Moar.

Why should I lurk moar?

I know that (having ruined connections with his own family which has many members) Mike left the Church and got being declared SP.

Mike didn't just hide from the Church but has spoken out.

***
Are you trying to tell me that he hasn't done what Alanzo had him "ordered to do"?? (i.e. expose it all and tell all his crimes to the authorities)
 
VaD... start here...


Amen

I don't agree, Panda. :no:

Using & accepting 'command intention' as a justification for past criminal & unethical acts is a personal cop out, whatever the individual's degree of involvement in the church. Everyone has a choice. They chose 'to believe', 'to accept', 'to go along', 'not to standout', 'to obey'. The higher the exec, the more the responsibility for the effects of their criminal actions. Leaving does not 'wipe the slate clean'. Although, depending on the circumstances of the departure, it may be a start.

For lower level types whose actions were not directed directly against the well being of others, acknowledgement of what the church is and departure therefrom is a big part of renewal & reformation. The more complicity in knowingly harming others, the more departure serves only as a beginning.

Guys like Rathbun & Rinder, and others with similar histories, have a lot of blood on their hands. Admittedly their individual degrees of indoctrination are factors in explaining their willingness to behave in such a corrupt fashion. It's not an excuse. Others preferred to leave rather than knowingly injure others. R & R were neither smart enough, honest enough, or brave enough. They preferred to enjoy privileged positions and forward 'command intention' no matter how corrupt. Many paid the price for their cowardice.

They do warrant compassion. Compassion is precisely what was lacking in their careers. Without compassion we all run the risk of descending to a similar level as that which they spent so much of their lives dramatizing.


Mark A. Baker
 

VaD

Gold Meritorious Patron
Fair enough VaD. I'll bite.

What *is* the difference?

mm&I

He was a pristine pure when he joined Scn (just like any of us). With good intentions (just like any of us).

He is now filled with dirt of past bad deeds (just like any of us). With intentions to correct those deeds and his wrongs (just like any of us*)

*not everyone wants to correct his deeds, or feel responsible for them.
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
VaD, please ask Emma to combine your thread with one of the myriad Rinder threads.
 
He is now filled with dirt of past bad deeds (just like any of us).

False assumption.

Second, implicit false assumption: not all 'past bad deeds' are equal.


With intentions to correct those deeds and his wrongs (just like any of us*)

*not everyone wants to correct his deeds, or feel responsible for them.

Perhaps. He's got a lot of work to do in recovering personal integrity and acceptance by ex-scientologists. Personally I wish him well in that effort.


Mark A. Baker
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Mark, The point I really took from LBV's post (which I've quoted a couple of times in relation to Rinder) is the point about his possible intention or motivation for doing the things he allegedly did.

"Good people doing evil things etc."

I know that some think of Rinder as inherently evil, I don't.

I possibly don't think as clearly as you or some others on this subject but I say what I think, regardless.
 

me myself & i

Patron Meritorious
He was a pristine pure when he joined Scn (just like any of us). With good intentions (just like any of us).

He is now filled with dirt of past bad deeds (just like any of us). With intentions to correct those deeds and his wrongs (just like any of us*)

*not everyone wants to correct his deeds, or feel responsible for them.

Fair enough VaD. And well spoken.

Can you understand how you would be less inclined to adopt that attitude if Mike Rinder was individually responsible for the slow and painful destruction of your entire family, over the course of many many years?

Please say yes VaD. Even if you are lying. Please say yes.

The wounds here are deep. The cuts are real. The bleeding is not make believe.

Please be as patient with us as you would like us to be with Mike Rinder.

Fair enough?

Thank you.

mm&I
 
Mark, The point I really took from LBV's post (which I've quoted a couple of times in relation to Rinder) is the point about his possible intention or motivation for doing the things he allegedly did.

"Good people doing evil things etc."

I know that some think of Rinder as inherently evil, I don't.

I possibly don't think as clearly as you or some others on this subject but I say what I think, regardless.

You do very well in expressing your views, I doubt we differ much. I don't believe any of these guys are 'inherently evil', either. Not even Miscavige. Truth to tell I'm not a believer in 'evil' as a state of being. All kinds of other things which amount to a similar effect, yes, but not 'pure evil'.

There is however a world of difference between 'not inherently evil' and a 'trustworthy & dependable good guy'. It's an insult to the latter to confuse them with the former.


Mark A. Baker
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
VaD... start here...


Amen

Not Amen.

Rings very hollow. I weep for Mike. Except, there's no reason to. He could bring the house down. The house that has his wife and child. He has that capability.

He can stop it. He doesn't. He needs to testify.

I really think what he has suffered in SP Hall, and being under Miscavige's thumb would be a horror-show. All of the suffering he has endured is real.

Is it cruel to ask him to end it?
 
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