Mike Rinder's brother Andrew on Opening of Scientology Sydney Continental Org

[Panda Termint]

Interesting contradiction...

Contradiction? You do understand how things work in scientology, right?

 

[guanoloco]

Hey...do you guys remember the rabbit from Month Python's Quest for the Holy Grail? The horrible beast that could only be despatched by the Holy Hand Grenade? That's Scientology's version of the Easter Bunny.

[video=youtube;QM9Bynjh2Lk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM9Bynjh2Lk[/video]

 

[Panda Termint]

See, Dave, that's the wonderful thing: when you have no scruples, or are in mortal fear, you can do things like turning family members against each other without a second thought. That's the danger of dealing with Scientologists - they may look like decent people, and they may talk a good game, but they may do the most disgusting things because they believe their cause is just, or because they are in mortal fear of retribution from Scientology itself, or both.

Of course, this situation is not unique to Scientology, various cults or 'religious leaders' have manipulated their followers for millennia to commit the most heinous of crimes in the name of [fill in the blank], or in fear of eternal [fill in the blank].

The difference now is that more people are seeing what Scientology is really like because of places like this on the internet, and that is helping to break the power of Scientology over its followers. One can only hope that the internet is also helping break the power of Imams, 'Christian', 'Buddhist' , or any other spiritual leader who abuses faith to harm others, or cause others to harm others.

Faith is incredibly powerful, and incredibly dangerous. When someone like Hubbard, Miscavage, or their lieutenants abuses it, the results are appalling, as we have seen.

^^^ THIS ^^^

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg

 

[Gadfly]

[FOOTNOTE][/FOOTNOTE]

Most of the Aussies know Andrew.
He's not a bad dude at all, just misguided in his Beliefs.

Nazis and suicide bombers were/are also severely "misguided in their beliefs". So were the leaders and participants of the Inquisition. So what?

The Nazi guard escorting the Jews to the "showers" told funny jokes along the way, and "he was not a bad dude at all". Really?

What the fuck does "not a bad dude at all" mean in such contexts?

To me a person is defined by their ACTIONS. Ones beliefs surely motivate ones actions, but how can a suicide bomber be "not a bad dude at all" when he aims to blow up a bus full of school children? Oh, he is not a bad dude at all with his friends and family, or with those WHO AGREE WITH HIM?

Strong beliefs have been a major factor in making this planet a Hell, and also in making it wonderful.

At best, a person who appears "not a bad dude at all", while also supporting or enacting harmful activities is a bundle of contradictions. Such as person has no "balance", no "harmony", and is surely NOT truly at peace. Such a person is FRAGMENTED and NOT HARMONIOUSLY WHOLE.

 

[FoTi]

[FOOTNOTE][/FOOTNOTE]

Nazis and suicide bombers were/are also severely "misguided in their beliefs". So were the leaders and participants of the Inquisition. So what?

The Nazi guard escorting the Jews to the "showers" told funny jokes along the way, and "he was not a bad dude at all". Really?

What the fuck does "not a bad dude at all" mean in such contexts?

To me a person is defined by their ACTIONS. Ones beliefs surely motivate ones actions, but how can a suicide bomber be "not a bad dude at all" when he aims to blow up a bus full of school children? Oh, he is not a bad dude at all with his friends and family, or with those WHO AGREE WITH HIM?

Strong beliefs have been a major factor in making this planet a Hell, and also in making it wonderful.

At best, a person who appears "not a bad dude at all", while also supporting or enacting harmful activities is a bundle of contradictions. Such as person has no "balance", no "harmony", and is surely NOT truly at peace. Such a person is FRAGMENTED and NOT HARMONIOUSLY WHOLE.

AND.... VERY CONFUSING.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

My heart agrees with Panda on this but my head says otherwise, so I think I'll just wander off again and listen to some more music because I prefer "thinking" with my heart these days and music puts me straight back into that mode.

Love to you all.

 

[Claire Swazey]

There is a sometimes fine line between empathizing and knowing how it is for them and possibly condoning or seeming to condone something they did that was wrong/bad.

Watching true crime shows, for instance-I can go yah, that poar bastard had a really terrible cildhood...no wonder he.... But, then, I think, yah, but he had free will and not everyone who grew up like that does those horrible things.

I read Panda's post as understanding the true believer POV, and, thus, being loathe to mock Andrew for his koolaid drinking. That's not the same as writing a post excusing the behavior and misdeeds.

 

[Panda Termint]

... and to add to that; as I said, many of us Aussies know and have dealt with Andrew and, of course, know for a fact that he's not really a "Suppressive Person" or evil by any stretch of the imagination. He's simply a True Believer doing what the Faithful do. I pity him his ignorance but, at the same time, don't condemn him out of hand for doing what he thinks of as "the right thing to do." Almost every scientologist I ever met, Ex or Still-in, is a good-hearted, well-intentioned person in my estimation despite the fact that their good hearts and well intentions are somewhat corrupted by their scientological belief system.

Godwin will undoubtedly rear his tiresome head yet again so I'll add that I imagine that the same holds true for the majority of Germans swept up in the National Socialist maelstrom.

Happy Easter, ESMBers!

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

... and to add to that; as I said, many of us Aussies know and have dealt with Andrew and, of course, know for a fact that he's not really a "Suppressive Person" or evil by any stretch of the imagination. He's simply a True Believer doing what the Faithful do. I pity him his ignorance but, at the same time, don't condemn him out of hand for doing what he thinks of as "the right thing to do." Almost every scientologist I ever met, Ex or Still-in, is a good-hearted, well-intentioned person in my estimation despite the fact that their good hearts and well intentions are somewhat corrupted by their scientological belief system.

Godwin will undoubtedly rear his tiresome head yet again so I'll add that I imagine that the same holds true for the majority of Germans swept up in the National Socialist maelstrom.

Happy Easter, ESMBers!

All that perceived drama is in playing out in just your head alone.

You are the only one talking about "Suppressive Persons" and "evil" and "Nazis".

Who are you lecturing and sermonizing to exactly?

 

[Panda Termint]

All that perceived drama is in playing out in just your head alone.

You are the only one talking about "Suppressive Persons" and "evil" and "Nazis".

Who are you lecturing and sermonizing to exactly?

I'm just commenting. You're the one who stooped to positioning this guy with Nazis (with that Nuremberg BULLSHIT) and Jonestown, right? If you think I'm the one talking about Nazis you need to reread the thread. I love how you do this ad hom shit!

 

[Free Being Me]

I doubt that he had much choice in that matter, Karen. What a terrible thing it is when scientology sets family members against each other.

I'd have thought it was obvious that anyone who stuck at scientology for any length of time must have, at least, thought that were getting something of value in exchange for their time and money.

Whilst it's probably comforting for some to think of it all as imagined, delusion, hypnosis or some kind of sleight of hand, the simple fact is that most (not all) probably got something out of it. Historical revisionism goes both ways, IMO.

ESMB, these days, seems to be mostly peopled by posters who've written the whole thing off as a bad experience, those who got little or nothing from scientology and/or those reluctant to even answer up to questions about any benefits they think they may have received through their participation in scientology.

Just my opinion.

Interesting contradiction. Good times had by all.

Contradiction? You do understand how things work in scientology, right?

Of course. One of those contradictions (a double bind) is taking people to task for not writing success stories about their experiences in the cult yet on the other hand stating how terrible the cult is.

 

[Panda Termint]

Of course. One of those contradictions (a double bind) is taking people to task for not writing success stories about their experiences in the cult yet on the other hand stating how terrible the cult is.

You'll have to point out the part where I'm "taking people to task for not writing success stories about their experiences in the cult". That makes no sense at all.

My position on this matter is simple and straightforward; some people obviously got something which they value out of their time in scientology and any suggestion that they didn't is not only disingenuous, it's downright silly.

To me, doing my part in exposing scientology for what it is requires that I tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as I see it. I don't insist that my truth be your truth but do reserve the right to comment as I see fit in this matter. I extend the same courtesy to you.

 

[Gadfly]

I doubt that he had much choice in that matter, Karen. What a terrible thing it is when scientology sets family members against each other.

Everybody HAS A CHOICE. You are simply failing to delineate the chain of choices made.

Andrew Rinder CHOSE to join Scientology. He CHOSE to accept and adopt the various nutty ideas. Then after creating a very tight little box of beliefs, through his own CHOICES, he saw the world through his darkly-colored glasses. He CHOSE every idea along the way, and every action.

Then when Mike left and was declared, it only APPEARS that his brother had "no choice" to follow the strict rules (that he had wholly accepted and endorsed by CHOICE) about "SPs", "Fair Game" and "disconnection". It only appears that he had NO CHOICE in spitting off from his brother, Mike. Andrew limited his choices, yes, by CHOOSING to play ball the Scientology way.

Everybody has Free Will, and short of a gun against your head or threat of imminent bodily pain and harm, each of us CHOOSE our ideas, what to think, and what to do. It might not seem that way, but the past chain of choices made puts each of us on a narrow restrictive path that is difficult to break free of.

Andrew DID very much have a choice. He could have stayed in touch with Mike. It was his CHOICE not to. But, based on the many past choices he made agreeing with Scientology ideas, those choices were elusive and impossible for him.

Andrew is stuck in a mindless cult paradigm. He STUCK HIMSELF by choosing to AGREE with various Scientology IDEAS. His perceptions and even his experiences of the world and life are greatly colored by his strict belief system - which he CHOSE FREELY.

I am not saying that Scientology isn't a class-act behavioral control apparatus. It is. Iy is highly manipulative on many levels. But in the end, some get involved and many do not. Each CHOOSES to do so or to not do so.

In the end it is each of us who CHOOSE what to accept as true, what to believe, and what to do. Despite environmental forces and factors rooted in ones past.

 

[Gadfly]

You'll have to point out the part where I'm "taking people to task for not writing success stories about their experiences in the cult". That makes no sense at all.

My position on this matter is simple and straightforward; some people obviously got something which they value out of their time in scientology and any suggestion that they didn't is not only disingenuous, it's downright silly.

To me, doing my part in exposing scientology for what it is requires that I tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as I see it. I don't insist that my truth be your truth but do reserve the right to comment as I see fit in this matter. I extend the same courtesy to you.

For me, and I have not been shy about stating so, I obviously got something which I valued out of my time in scientology. I must admit that there isn't much that I use today from the subject. It is all but dead to me, as most of it is useless for the "current me". Also, the insanity of the Scientology organization quickly began to outweigh whatever "wins" I had obtained, and I couldn't remain on staff, or in the Sea Org, and remained on the fringes for many years (mainly because of family ties).

What I needed as a starry-eyed, insecure and confused post-college druggie, is very much different from today. I suspect that my character way back in the seventies, which was immature and overly unrealistically idealistic, had much to do with my choice to get involved with Scn, AND with my "wins". I suspect that I would have ended up "better" sooner or later, no matter what I did.

In fact while I had many blow-outs, cognitions, realizations, and WOW moments, in retrospect I can see how I largely CREATED these experiences through creative visualization (Hubbard's methods access the imagination, and Scientology techniques do so without ever letting you in on that fact). Also, few of these great moments had any noticeable effect on me out into the present - or so it seems to me.

Good and decent people can find good in just about anything. And some did with control-laden Scientology.

But, feeling good and feeling better, usually for brief periods (through auditing), is NOT the same as "gaining eternal freedom", "salvaging this sector", or "rehabilitating the thetan".

I continue to have the view that while the auditing is far overrated as a "fix" for anything, and by itself it is largely neutral, that it is the insidiousness of the GROUP (organization, management, Scn ethics and justice, OSA) and control tactics that underlie the true despicableness of this cancer known as Scientology.

 

[Panda Termint]

Everybody HAS A CHOICE. <snip for brevity...>

Of course, Gadfly, but you know as well as I do that once that initial choice "I am a scientologist" is made and as long as it is adhered to, all sorts of "now I'm supposed to's" come into play.

For an in-good-standing OT 8 OT Ambassador there's no choice to whether or not you do as you're asked to by the Powers That Be. You've long since surrendered your own volition and actually believe that following Command Intention is what you choose to do.

It's the only path available to someone who believes that his own Eternal Future and that of every Man, Woman and Child on this Planet depends on what he does here and now with scientology.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I'm just commenting. You're the one who stooped to positioning this guy with Nazis (with that Nuremberg BULLSHIT) and Jonestown, right? If you think I'm the one talking about Nazis you need to reread the thread.

I love how you do this ad hom shit!

Oh you are going back to that lame campaign again? LOL

Report me, dude. Please report me. Let's get ethics in on ESMB, right? LOL

You have been running that campaign on me for years (and other moralizing campaigns as well). Your stuff gets boring fast when you resort to that. Try to be more creative, will ya?

Why don't I get moderated if what you are saying is true? Or are you just trying to make it seem that way to others when I disagree with your holy opinions? (I noticed you already started talking about how you are being "bashed" on this thread and it isn't even 40 posts long. LOLOLOLOLOL)

Originally Posted by Panda Termint
Hey, I have an idea!
Instead of Redemption and Forgiveness this Easter let's all do some Panda Bashing!

Keep on with your sermons, moralizing and lectures, I am sure at least Claire will support you. LOL

 

[Panda Termint]

For me, and I have not been shy about stating so, I obviously got something which I valued out of my time in scientology. <snip for brevity...>

I know and I appreciate your posts here. I just believe that some ESMBers are reluctant to voice such things for whatever reasons they have. I don't blame them and have no intention of cajoling them into doing so, I'm just commenting on the fact that I view the current makeup of Posters here on ESMB in a certain light.

Originally Posted by Panda Termint


ESMB, these days, seems to be mostly peopled by posters who've written the whole thing off as a bad experience, those who got little or nothing from scientology and/or those reluctant to even answer up to questions about any benefits they think they may have received through their participation in scientology.

 

[Gadfly]

Of course, Gadfly, but you know as well as I do that once that initial choice "I am a scientologist" is made and as long as it is adhered to, all sorts of "now I'm supposed to's" come into play.

For an in-good-standing OT 8 OT Ambassador there's no choice to whether or not you do as you're asked to by the Powers That Be. You've long since surrendered your own volition and actually believe that following Command Intention is what you choose to do.

It's the only path available to someone who believes that his own Eternal Future and that of every Man, Woman and Child on this Planet depends on what he does here and now with scientology.

Sure, that is true. It is all part of the psychology of belief (and manipulation).

The truth is that each person still DOES have a CHOICE. But, he or she has excluded certain choices as possibilities once one agrees with all the ideological idiocies (a few of which you cite above).

Scientology is setup to create TRUE BELIEVERS. Those types of folks do not see the world as others, and they do not think or act as others.

By the way, "surrendering your own volition" to a person, group or set of ideas is a CHOICE. And of course, once surrendered, the palette of available new choices becomes unique and limited (in alignment with the content of the belief system).

But, we each live with (and through) our choices, and they often create a narrow channel for future experiences. Once immersed in a tight little box of beliefs, ones choices become greatly limited. But IT IS SELF-INFLICTED. Only you stand guard at the doorways of your mind, allowing, discarding or refusing what to believe, what to accept as true, and what to think.

Of course, Hubbard was a slick conman and he knew how to trick you into sabotaging your own mind's natural defenses against such things.

 

[Panda Termint]

Oh you are going back to that campaign again? LOL

Report me, dude.

You have been running that campaign on me for years (and other moralizing campaigns as well). Your stuff gets boring fast when you resort to that. Try to be more creative, will ya?

Why don't I get moderated if what you are saying is true?

Keep on with your sermons, moralizing and lectures, I am sure at least Claire will support you. LOL

Lol, I don't do that Reporting thing but I do answer back.

I don't worry about it when you (or anyone else) resorts to ad hom or snide personal attacks, I just take it as an admission that you (or they) have run out of reasonable arguments.

BTW, calling you on that shit isn't any kind of Campaign against you, it's just how I roll. I would have thought you'd be used to it by now but, if not...
Expect me.

 

[Lone Star]

I know and I appreciate your posts here. I just believe that some ESMBers are reluctant to voice such things for whatever reasons they have. I don't blame them and have no intention of cajoling them into doing so, I'm just commenting on the fact that I view the current makeup of Posters here on ESMB in a certain light.

Pan-determined cajoler,

Your comments on the current makeup of Posters have been nnnnnnnnnnnnnoted.