Mike Rinder's brother Andrew on Opening of Scientology Sydney Continental Org

[Gadfly]

I know and I appreciate your posts here.



I just believe that some ESMBers are reluctant to voice such things for whatever reasons they have. I don't blame them and have no intention of cajoling them into doing so, I'm just commenting on the fact that I view the current makeup of Posters here on ESMB in a certain light.

Who cares what YOU perceive to be the current, but ever-changing, "makeup of Posters here on ESMB"? :confused2:

This "makeup of Posters here on ESMB" is largely a figment of YOUR own imagination.

Also, a person's view of past experiences changes over time, as one gains new experiences, knowledge and perspectives.

I know that it may be somewhat true that some ex-Scientologists FELT that there was something horribly wrong, but never figured out what it was - so they react with disdain to every bit of it. Usually they detested the control, lying, manipulation, and PR, whether they were conscious of it or not.

So, it is like cognitive dissonance in reverse. To the newly out, especially, they need to remain "whole", and thus often see wrong with everything. Granted, there is far more "bad" than good in organized Scientology, and the "good" is often used as bait to fuel the nasty Scientology machinery. Whatever "good" is in Scientology, or one got from Scientology, was not of major concern to Hubbard - his concern was expanding Scientology at ANY cost. Hubbard added various "good things" to fuel his power/money/control venture.

A good and decent person can have amazing wins and experiences from just about anything he or she takes seriously and delves into deeply, with heart and soul. Hubbard's true genius may been in how he managed to get some of us to delve into and commit unconditionally to the ideas, ideals and goals of Scientology - at least for a short time. Hubbard knew how to get you to commit all-the-way. KSW - onboard fully, same as the rest of us, live or die in the attempt!

Note: It was the person who created the wins for his or herself. Pointing at Scientology as the "cause" is misguided. Especially when its track record of successes with different people is so horrible poor.

 

[Panda Termint]

Who cares what YOU perceive to be the current, but ever-changing, "makeup of Posters here on ESMB"? :confused2:

....

The OP on a different thread. It was a comment addressed to the OP of that thread http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...quot-wins-quot&p=927202&viewfull=1#post927202 who had asked about "good things" which hooked us into scientology. It was imported into this thread to bolster someone else's personal commentary about me.

 

[Panda Termint]

...
Note: It was the person who created the wins for his or herself. Pointing at Scientology as the "cause" is misguided. Especially when its track record of successes with different people is so horrible poor.

I have said the same thing many times. It's true for me too but scientology happens to be the horse I rode. I doubt very much that I would have even attempted the journey without a horse, though.

Genuine question; Do you think you'd be where you are today without the experience?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Lol, I don't do that Reporting thing but I do answer back.

I don't worry about it when you (or anyone else) resorts to ad hom or snide personal attacks, I just take it as an admission that you (or they) have run out of reasonable arguments.

You "don't worry about it"?



Over the years, you have posted about how you were pissed off countless times. And you have posted, hundreds of times, your moralizing lectures to other ESMB posters when they violated your personal moderation policies and dared to disagree in a way you did not approve of. Should I cut and paste them? LOL

On the brighter side of things, that line was clearly the BEST BULLSHIT I have read so far in 2014 by a regular ESMB poster. LOL. Your campaign of trying to make it look like others (e.g. me) are "attacking" innocent ESMB posters is total fail.

Despite that, The Church of Hoaxology is nonetheless awarding you both a CERTIFICATE and LAPEL PIN for the valiant attempt! Take a win. YAYY!

 

[Panda Termint]

...

Over the years, you have posted about how pissed you off countless times. ...

Gawd, somebody call the Bwaaaahmbulance!
Put your Big Girl pants on and HTFU!

 

[degraded being]

Of course, Gadfly, but you know as well as I do that once that initial choice "I am a scientologist" is made and as long as it is adhered to, all sorts of "now I'm supposed to's" come into play.

For an in-good-standing OT 8 OT Ambassador there's no choice to whether or not you do as you're asked to by the Powers That Be. You've long since surrendered your own volition and actually believe that following Command Intention is what you choose to do.

It's the only path available to someone who believes that his own Eternal Future and that of every Man, Woman and Child on this Planet depends on what he does here and now with scientology.

Were you that totally utterly fucked and brainless when you were in Panda? Did you surrender your own volition to that degree? AFAICR you have presented yourself as someone who maintained his independence to a remarkable degree while you were in the cult. Yet you "defend" other, presumably intelligent, people by presenting them as virtual zombies. How come you came away so unscathed when those poor fuckers didn't? You are presumably defending such people, but what a defence! Were you as mindless as them?
Why wouldn't you have been, considering your defence of them? You were were in there with them. But you were not SO were you? Is that your "out"? That would be funny. You looking down on them for being SO and them looking down on you for not being SO!
If you were as mindless as them then you would need to suspect most or all of your ideas that you had, and have about your experiences while in. Give them SOME credit and acknowledge them for being arseholes...even if they are doing it for a cause. Let the underdogs you are defending just be DOGS. That's what they are a lot of the time.

 

[Free Being Me]

I doubt that he had much choice in that matter, Karen. What a terrible thing it is when scientology sets family members against each other.

I'd have thought it was obvious that anyone who stuck at scientology for any length of time must have, at least, thought that were getting something of value in exchange for their time and money.

Whilst it's probably comforting for some to think of it all as imagined, delusion, hypnosis or some kind of sleight of hand, the simple fact is that most (not all) probably got something out of it. Historical revisionism goes both ways, IMO.

ESMB, these days, seems to be mostly peopled by posters who've written the whole thing off as a bad experience, those who got little or nothing from scientology and/or those reluctant to even answer up to questions about any benefits they think they may have received through their participation in scientology.

Just my opinion.

Interesting contradiction. Good times had by all.

Contradiction? You do understand how things work in scientology, right?

Of course. One of those contradictions (a double bind) is taking people to task for not writing success stories about their experiences in the cult yet on the other hand stating how terrible the cult is.

You'll have to point out the part where I'm "taking people to task for not writing success stories about their experiences in the cult". That makes no sense at all.

My position on this matter is simple and straightforward; some people obviously got something which they value out of their time in scientology and any suggestion that they didn't is not only disingenuous, it's downright silly.

To me, doing my part in exposing scientology for what it is requires that I tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as I see it. I don't insist that my truth be your truth but do reserve the right to comment as I see fit in this matter. I extend the same courtesy to you.

The whole point of a cult is being controlled with erroneous conclusions while unknowingly subjugated through various means of psychological/emotional manipulation. The degree a person believes some benefit is offered is proportional that cults influence, presently or lingering. Pointing out the cult is terrible and rightly so versus ESMB is mostly peopled by posters who've written the whole thing off ($cientology) as a bad experience because said posters aren't writing about the "benefits" of the cult is contradictory and plain dissonant.

Pick one:

I joined the $cientology cult and:

• It broke up my family
• I had a forced abortion
• I needed therapy for PTSD, depression, anxiety, etc.
• My credit is destroyed
• I was offloaded onto the street
• I was fair gamed with lies and lawsuits
• Someone I knew committed suicide
• I escaped from Foul Winds while in a foreign country
• and many more ... cult benefits for everyone!

 

[Panda Termint]

Were you that totally utterly fucked and brainless when you were in Panda? Did you surrender your own volition to that degree?

No and no.

AFAICR you have presented yourself as someone who maintained his independence to a remarkable degree while you were in the cult. Yet you "defend" other, presumably intelligent, people by presenting them as virtual zombies. How come you came away so unscathed when those poor fuckers didn't? You are presumably defending such people, but what a defence!

I'm not defending them, I'm speaking to their State Of Mind. Under that layer of Cult Indoctrination is a human being.

Were you as mindless as them?

Nope, never as far as I'm concerned.

Why wouldn't you have been, considering your defence of them? You were were in there with them. But you were not SO were you? Is that your "out"? That would be funny. You looking down on them for being SO and them looking down on you for not being SO!

What defence of them would that be? Yes, I was SO (twice) it wasn't a good fit for me. No worries though, now you know something else about me which you didn't know before.

If you were as mindless as them then you would need to suspect most or all of your ideas that you had, and have about your experiences while in. Give them SOME credit and acknowledge them for being arseholes...even if they are doing it for a cause. Let the underdogs you are defending just be DOGS. That's what they are a lot of the time.

N/A, see previous answers. There are, obviously, Assholes in the CofS but the majority are something else.

 

[Veda]

You "don't worry about it"?



Over the years, you have posted about how pissed you off countless times. And you have posted, hundreds of times, your moralizing lectures to other ESMB posters when they violated your personal moderation policies and dared to disagree in a way you did not approve of. Should I cut and paste them? LOL

On the brighter side of things, that line was clearly the BEST BULLSHIT I have read so far in 2014 by a regular ESMB poster. LOL. Your campaign of trying to make it look like others (e.g. me) are "attacking" innocent ESMB posters is total fail.

Despite that, The Church of Hoaxology is nonetheless awarding you both a CERTIFICATE and LAPEL PIN for the valiant attempt! Take a win. YAYY!

This is my favorite. One of many bizarre responses from P. to a thread I started asking for accounts of good experiences with Scientology. P. insisted that such a thread was actually a sinister attempt to humiliate others, rather than do what I've been doing for years: helping others by sorting out Scientology.

Panda Termint accused me of "repetitive Hypno-Brainwashing Techniques" and "personal Vedettas against others here," and went on, "I offered what I think is a perfectly logical reason for why few if any who benefited from scientology might be willing to discuss those perceived benefits here..."

Classically, this angst saturated tirade ends with:

"Please don't take me too seriously..."

Funny stuff!

 

[Panda Termint]

This is my favorite. One of many bizarre responses from P. to a thread I started asking for accounts of good experiences with Scientology. P. insisted that such a thread was actually a sinister attempt to humiliate others, rather than do what I've been doing for years: helping others by sorting out Scientology.

Panda Termint accused me of "repetitive Hypno-Brainwashing Techniques" and "personal Vedettas against others here," and went on, "I offered what I think is a perfectly logical reason for why few if any who benefited from scientology might be willing to discuss those perceived benefits here..."

Classically, this angst saturated tirade ends with:

"Please don't take me too seriously..."

Funny stuff!

No worries, there's room for two in Bwaaaahmbulance, hop aboard!

Note for those wondering about Context: When Hubbard says the same thing over and over and over again and at great length that is a Repetitive Hypno Brainwashing Technique but when Veda says the same thing over and over and over again and at great length that is... something else.

 

[Lone Star]

Okay Panda....That's it!!! Here ya go.....

Need I say more?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

The whole point of a cult is being controlled with erroneous conclusions while unknowingly subjugated through various means of psychological/emotional manipulation. The degree a person believes some benefit is offered is proportional that cults influence, presently or lingering. Pointing out the cult is terrible and rightly so versus ESMB is mostly peopled by posters who've written the whole thing off ($cientology) as a bad experience because said posters aren't writing about the "benefits" of the cult is contradictory and plain dissonant.

Pick one:

I joined the $cientology cult and:

• It broke up my family
• I had a forced abortion
• I needed therapy for PTSD, depression, anxiety, etc.
• My credit is destroyed
• I was offloaded onto the street
• I was fair gamed with lies and lawsuits
• Someone I knew committed suicide
• I escaped from Foul Winds while in a foreign country
• and many more ... cult benefits for everyone!

Exactly.

That aspect of Panda's posts was always a bizarre mystery to me until the thread (perhaps a year or two ago) when he openly posted about his huge OT wins on Hubbard's OT levels. That's the only time I have ever personally seen him discuss it so directly. To me, it clearly explains where all these strange attempts to moderate (e.g. "police") other ESMB posters comes from. (i.e. the aspect of his trying to eliminate certain kinds of posts about "the tech". There are certain lines in his mind which, when crossed by others, results in instant sermonizing and moralizing lectures to other ESMB posters and/or some manner of support for those who still believe in the tech to whatever degree).

 

[Panda Termint]

The whole point of a cult is being controlled with erroneous conclusions while unknowingly subjugated through various means of psychological/emotional manipulation. The degree a person believes some benefit is offered is proportional that cults influence, presently or lingering. Pointing out the cult is terrible and rightly so versus ESMB is mostly peopled by posters who've written the whole thing off ($cientology) as a bad experience because said posters aren't writing about the "benefits" of the cult is contradictory and plain dissonant.

Pick one:

I joined the $cientology cult and:

• It broke up my family
• I had a forced abortion
• I needed therapy for PTSD, depression, anxiety, etc.
• My credit is destroyed
• I was offloaded onto the street
• I was fair gamed with lies and lawsuits
• Someone I knew committed suicide
• I escaped from Foul Winds while in a foreign country
• and many more ... cult benefits for everyone!

You obviously have trouble differentiating between the Cult of scientology and the actions of well-intentioned people working to help others. I won't try to disabuse you of your self-certainty.

Yes, all of those things listed above happened in, or as a result of actions by, the Cult of scientology. You give a poor choice of options to pick from, though, very one-dimensional.

Note: I didn't say the bolded word above and your understanding of what I wrote is suspect. They are two separate categories of Posters.

 

[Gadfly]

I have said the same thing many times. It's true for me too but scientology happens to be the horse I rode. I doubt very much that I would have even attempted the journey without a horse, though.

Genuine question; Do you think you'd be where you are today without the experience?

Of course not. But, as a great wise man once said, "there are MANY paths to the same destination"!

I have no attention or concern for my past choices. Not any longer (I worked through them all with good counseling). I have looked them over fully, understood who I was and why I chose what I did (at the time), resolved various issues that still lingered, and have accepted and forgiven every poor past choice I have ever made. By doing so, I am less immersed in some tight little box based on "past choices". I am fully free of dogma.

Sure, every experience and choice affects us to some degree. But today, now, the influence of Scientology on me is minimal, and gets less every day - as I continue to grow and evolve with NEW living experiences, new knowledge, and new ideas. Every day, for me, Scientology becomes a faint memory, and not because I suppress it, but because I don't care about it on ay level - it is meaningless to me, like some tiny red ant sitting on the butt of a pink elephant that is standing in a deep crater on the dark side of the moon. Wholly irrelevant.

 

[Panda Termint]

Exactly.

That aspect of Panda's posts was always a bizarre mystery to me until the thread (perhaps a year or two ago) when he openly posted about his huge OT wins on Hubbard's OT levels. That's the only time I have ever personally seen him discuss it so directly. To me, it clearly explains where all these strange attempts to moderate (e.g. "police") other ESMB posters comes from.

Getting personal again? OK

What you wrote above is simply not true, I've discussed it many times here on ESMB but accept that you may not have read those posts. Your conclusions drawn are complete BULLSHIT, though. Are you sure you're on the right thread?

 

[Veda]

Okay Panda....That's it!!! Here ya go.....

Need I say more?

It was so badly derailed, I took my main posts on the topic of the thread (sans derailment) and stuck them together.

Sinister posts don't ya think! http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?31903-Cheese-Trap-thread-reconstituted

 

[Gadfly]

No worries, there's room for two in Bwaaaahmbulance, hop aboard!

Note for those wondering about Context: When Hubbard says the same thing over and over and over again and at great length that is a Repetitive Hypno Brainwashing Technique but when Veda says the same thing over and over and over again and at great length that is... something else.

What an absurd juxtaposition of data.

Sometimes the TRUTH needs to be repeated over and over, to sink into the thicker-headed folks out there.

One practices a musical instrument, phrase by phrase, note-by-note, REPETITIVELY.

One learns habits by repetition.

Hubbard created or copied Chinese School for a reason. It helps quickly implant IDEAS into the soggy heads of aspiring true believers. Hubbard DID often use repetitive techniques as a tool of his methods of CONTROL and MANIPULATION.

This A=A=A you made between what Hubbard did and what Veda does, at best, is disingenuous, snarky, and plain dumb.

 

[Panda Termint]

....Hubbard DID often use repetitive techniques as a tool of his methods of CONTROL and MANIPULATION.

Oh right and everyone else would be above doing anything like that, right?

... This A=A=A you made between what Hubbard did and what Veda does, at best, is disingenuous, snarky, and plain dumb.

Says you!

You did see the "Don't take me too seriously" comment, didn't you?

I love engaging in that all-Australian past-time, "Taking the piss!". I can't help myself, especially when it comes to "Serious-Bidness Authority Figures" and "Can-Dish-It-Out-But-Can't-Take-It" types.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Getting personal again? OK

What you wrote above is simply not true, I've discussed it many times here on ESMB but accept that you may not have read those posts. Your conclusions drawn are complete BULLSHIT, though. Are you sure you're on the right thread?

I did not get personal. I just stated what is my opinion about what is already posted on ESMB. You were the one that posted information about your huge OT wins, not me. I am simply referring to it to try and make sense out of the moderation policies you are fashioning and often attempting to force on others. And those moralizing campaigns and sermons you persist in launching when you get bent out of shape simply because someone contradicted some opinion of yours that you hold particularly sacred.

HELPFUL TIP: Just voice your opinion and don't worry about delivering sermons to others who don't agree with you. Don't accuse others of "attacking" or "ad hom" or "bashing" simply because they don't follow your lectures and agree with you.

My conclusions are not "bullshit". They are my conclusions. Anyone can read what you posted and draw their own conclusions. You said what you said. I didn't make it up.

 

[Panda Termint]

I did not get personal...

I kinda define Personal as discussing the Poster rather than the content of the posts.

I say again, your information as to my discussion of my gains in scientology is false and your conclusions about it (sorry, I meant to say "opinions") are mistaken. I've spoken openly about my journey since I arrived here in 2008.