Miscavige's niece speaks up on disconnection

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Ha ha. I dont know if I would go that far. She is an old friend. Or at least an old pc of mine. So I would like to say hi.

You've only got one life, may as well make it fun.

:)

alex ( who thinks bea could shake some foundations)
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
I am truly charmed that you think so highly of me.:wink2:

Considering that I suggested you do something akin to jumping in a swimming pool full of sharks, coated in bacon grease, I take that as a very encouragning sign.

You have unique qualities: I picture you as a little girl warrior savant, experienced but extroverted enough that it does not define you.

You could wield a deadly sword while kittens tickle your ankles and make you giggle.

The game is yours to play.

You only go around once in life.
:)

alex
 

everfree

Patron Meritorious
As difficult as it was for me to finally face up to the fact that I wanted to be free of the church I also had to look at the fact that reform really is not possible. The #1 quoted policy is KSW. I took this policy to mean do not alter tech, do not make up your own autditing commands, etc.

I think that reform IS possible. Different Scnists choose which Scn datums or policies to emphasize. Instead of pressured SO abortions, they could choose to "love and take care of children". Instead of "SRAs", Scnists could choose to use "ARC". Instead of impoverished, unhealthy staff, there could be "optimum survival across ALL the dynamics".

Right now, there is a subset of Scn that is what is "pushed". That doesn't mean that individual Scnists couldn't choose to push more life giving ideals, and make sure that the rest of their group did as well. It would be great if one day that happened. I wont hold my breath though.

What is the line I heard quoted most from staff and SO? "win or die in the attempt" I never took this line literally-I don't belive it was written that way

I do. It appears Hubbard was quite willing to let people die or at least sacrifice everything in the attempt - profiting by their sacrifices all the while. He couldn't have created SO where people work 100+ hours per week for pocket change otherwise.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I'm surprised to hear (well, see anyway) you say that, Everfree.

The reform thing seems so tricky and so problematic to me!! I don't think I could ever trust the organization anymore even if FZers took it over...I think the dramatizations of Hubbard's nastier policies would start up again eventually.

I think that for Scn'ists to reform, they have to be able to admit Hubbard was sometimes FOS and that some policies should be ditched. Many non CofS Scn'ists aren't willing to do that and CofS Scn'ists, less so.

What do you think? :)
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I think everfree has made a good point of this in the past.

He/she (he-he!) has stated that there are passages in the Bible such as in Leviticus that call for the murder of homosexuals, for instance, and those aren't emphasized any more by Christians.

The same thing COULD happen with the Hubbard's illegal/insane policies, too.

As long as the Church has some kind of check and balance system placed upon it and real every-day people are allowed to exert some kind of control over its power, I think it may work.

But people like Miscavage have to be long gone off the lines, and the fanatics can't have unchecked power any more.

That's why I'm for reform of the Church. I think it could work.

We need a court case of the magnitude of the Mary Sue felony conviction, where Scientology's whole survival is at stake, and they are forced to change their ways or be totally, and legally dismantled.

Only then will they agree: be sane, or go under.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think everfree has made a good point of this in the past.

He/she (he-he!) has stated that there are passages in the Bible such as in Leviticus that call for the murder of homosexuals, for instance, and those aren't emphasized any more by Christians.

The same thing COULD happen with the Hubbard's illegal/insane policies, too.

As long as the Church has some kind of check and balance system placed upon it and real every-day people are allowed to exert some kind of control over its power, I think it may work.

But people like Miscavage have to be long gone off the lines, and the fanatics can't have unchecked power any more.

That's why I'm for reform of the Church. I think it could work.

We need a court case of the magnitude of the Mary Sue felony conviction, where Scientology's whole survival is at stake, and they are forced to change their ways or be totally, and legally dismantled.

Only then will they agree: be sane, or go under.

Alanzo!

Have you reverted to scifag!
:)

alex (who is currently entertaining self on irc)
 

everfree

Patron Meritorious
I think everfree has made a good point of this in the past.

He/she (he-he!) has stated that there are passages in the Bible such as in Leviticus that call for the murder of homosexuals, for instance, and those aren't emphasized any more by Christians.

The same thing COULD happen with the Hubbard's illegal/insane policies, too.

'Zactly. The actual details of it would be... not easy to work out. But it could happen in much the same way as has happened with the Christians as above, there's historical precedent of reform of even worse things than those that happen in CofS.

Whether Scnists would be willing or able to bring such reform about, I don't know. There are plenty of factors that weigh against it. But it's certainly possible, if Scnists wanted it to happen.
 

alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
'Zactly. The actual details of it would be... not easy to work out. But it could happen in much the same way as has happened with the Christians as above, there's historical precedent of reform of even worse things than those that happen in CofS.

Whether Scnists would be willing or able to bring such reform about, I don't know. There are plenty of factors that weigh against it. But it's certainly possible, if Scnists wanted it to happen.

It would take a big house cleaning at the top. A task ripe for the taking, to badly mix metaphors.

alex
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
It would take a big house cleaning at the top. A task ripe for the taking, to badly mix metaphors.

alex

So, what are you doing about it? Do you think they'll let themselves be 'cleaned' voluntarily? Did Ron leave any mechanism in place to take care of 'cleaning'? If not; why not?

Zinj
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
'Zactly. The actual details of it would be... not easy to work out. But it could happen in much the same way as has happened with the Christians as above, there's historical precedent of reform of even worse things than those that happen in CofS.

Whether Scnists would be willing or able to bring such reform about, I don't know. There are plenty of factors that weigh against it. But it's certainly possible, if Scnists wanted it to happen.

I think they need to be forced to want it to happen.

I think that the programmed worldview of a Scientologist is so air-tight in most cases that the power of the state must be brought down upon them, where they either face extinction, or the chance to keep the tech alive.

They will choose to keep the tech alive, but in a form that is not illegal, or immoral to the lives of others who are not Scientologists, or who have ideas that run contrary to Scientology.

In other words, their totalist view must change to include the lives and interests of others who are not Scientologists and never will be, and to respect the human rights of all, including Scientologists and their own self-interests outside of those that forward the Church.

It'll be pretty rough, but everyone has to grow up sometime.
 

everfree

Patron Meritorious
I think they need to be forced to want it to happen.

I think that the programmed worldview of a Scientologist is so air-tight in most cases that the power of the state must be brought down upon them, where they either face extinction, or the chance to keep the tech alive.

It is usually hard to get Scnists to even acknowledge that unsavory things happen in CofS, so from that standpoint you're quite right.

OTOH, if they only change because they're forced to instead because of a well-reasoned agreement by the group overall that it's for the best, the tendency will always be towards recidivism.

It would be best for them and everyone else if those changes were self-originated and self-policed in a transparent manner. I used to be more optimistic that would happen but I no longer hold my breath.

They will choose to keep the tech alive, but in a form that is not illegal, or immoral to the lives of others who are not Scientologists, or who have ideas that run contrary to Scientology.

Sadly it may come to that. We'll see.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Is there any info on why Jenna's parents left the church and how they got away in one piece?

Most Scientologists leave. In however many pieces. The 'Church' doesn't harass them as long as they shut up.

In her case, they were just disconnected from her, and, probably because of prominence, not even completely disconnected. Others are hit harder.

Zinj
 
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