Mixed Feelings on Scientology

HCO Chief

New Member
Read the truth about LRH's biography and that will clear up much about the man. No doubt a small percentage of what he wrote is good, but a much larger percentage is straight from hell. Another interesting read is his son LRH Jr.'s interview with Penthouse, and also info on his association with Alistair Crowley. Also check out Tony Ortega's blog at the Village Voice. Hubbard truly is a brilliant con man and prolific nutter.
 

A.K. Myers

Patron with Honors
Is it really ALL a crock?
Really?

Yep. In the Die-a-netics book old hubbie claimed that
at the end of WW2 he was nearly blind and infirm but
using his discovery he healed himself.

Of course the military keep track of such things as
that, and their records show that other than an ulcer
the old fraud was just fine.

So, everything, from day one, was a lie and a con.
Consider yourself lucky you got out when you did. Some
chumps have wasted their entire lives with this crap.

:coolwink:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Yep. In the Die-a-netics book old hubbie claimed that
at the end of WW2 he was nearly blind and infirm but
using his discovery he healed himself.

Of course the military keep track of such things as
that, and their records show that other than an ulcer
the old fraud was just fine.

So, everything, from day one, was a lie and a con.
Consider yourself lucky you got out when you did. Some
chumps have wasted their entire lives with this crap.

:coolwink:


Perhaps one of the more curious aspects of Scientology is that people are still wondering if Hubbard started out to deceive & defraud.

Despite an avalanche of information clearly showing that Hubbard knew he was lying (Book I, DMSMH, for example) even a few folks here on ESMB are wondering about his "intentions".

In the late 50's Hubbard admitted on film that DMSMH did not produce a Clear. But nothing in the book was changed on all the re-publishings. It never corrected the fraud contained in every chapter and page of that book. There is an entire thread on that...

What does that mean?

Exactly what it looks like.

That Hubbard was HAPPY to defraud and lie to everyone if he could make money from it.

I still have trouble understanding how people reading the internet or here on ESMB can not understand that simplicity.
 

Crashed Alien

Patron with Honors
Is it really ALL a crock?
Really?
I wanted to help others and get help for myself when I joined the sea org. Turned out working long hours and not making any progress for myself was not for me.
I did get some auditing and thought it was helpful.
I see so much anti-scientology but it seems to me it's all about how people have been treated on-staff.
Is there nowhere one can get the gains without the pressure of "joining staff" or donating mega mega $$?

showme,

Whether it is all crock or not is for you to decide...

You do not have to join staff or pay mega £$ to do book one auditing and it is at least worth seeing if that works for you.

You do not have to do any of this at all.

You can do any amount of it...

You are a free being!

You do what you decide to do - Right or wrong is just a point of view - So use your point of view!

There are people here of all kinds - Mostly very warm and very well intentioned who will give advice from one end of the spectrum to the other.

But, at the end of the day, you need to make your own mind up.

Crash
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Is it really ALL a crock?
Really?
I wanted to help others and get help for myself when I joined the sea org. Turned out working long hours and not making any progress for myself was not for me.
I did get some auditing and thought it was helpful.
I see so much anti-scientology but it seems to me it's all about how people have been treated on-staff.
Is there nowhere one can get the gains without the pressure of "joining staff" or donating mega mega $$?


There are many paths.

There're people practicing Scn outside the Church of Scn. It is not expensive, in the least.

But there're also wonderful things like Buddhism.

I just read an awesome book (non Scn) I'd like to recommend:

Strand of Pearls by Deborah Livingston.
 
Is it really ALL a crock?
Really?
I wanted to help others and get help for myself when I joined the sea org. Turned out working long hours and not making any progress for myself was not for me.
I did get some auditing and thought it was helpful.
I see so much anti-scientology but it seems to me it's all about how people have been treated on-staff.
Is there nowhere one can get the gains without the pressure of "joining staff" or donating mega mega $$?

No, it is not all a crock. There is much about the subject of scientology that is invalid, but there is also much that is quite valid & useful. The proof lying in the fact that many have experienced long term benefit from adoption & practice of scientology.

However, just as there are many who wish to believe it is all absolutely true in accordance with the words of lrh, there are many who wish to believe it is all completely false. Both categorizations arise from extremist attachments and both are mistaken in their views.


Mark A. Baker
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
Is it really ALL a crock?
Really?
I wanted to help others and get help for myself when I joined the sea org. Turned out working long hours and not making any progress for myself was not for me.
I did get some auditing and thought it was helpful.
I see so much anti-scientology but it seems to me it's all about how people have been treated on-staff.
Is there nowhere one can get the gains without the pressure of "joining staff" or donating mega mega $$?

Short answer: Yes, absolutely, its an incredibly detailed con job invented by sci-fi hack who discovered if you made bullshit sound technical and specific enough people would believe it because they desperatley want someone to give them answers to the big mysteries of life.

Long Answer: The countless threads on this message board that provide all the background to the short answer plus so much much more.

Or just ask yourself, have you ever met a REAL clear or OT?
 

Gadfly

Crusader
What parts are "Quite valid and useful"?

Personally, if I had to do it all over again, I would pretty much do the lower Bridge, especially if it was as cheap as it was when one bought 250 hours at a time back in 1976. With the sliding scale and AP (advanced payment) discount, I was getting about 60% off the regular price (which was about $800 an intensive back then).

I enjoyed every bit of TRs, Objectives, Life Repair, Dianetics R3R, Drug Rundown, Grades and the Expanded Grades. Well, forget Grade IV, I didn't get much from that.

But, knowing what I know now, I would have finished Grade IV, turned around, walked out the door, never to return or support that insane organization.

Now, some people can't make sense how I can't rip apart Hubbard and Scientology as I do, yet talk positively about the auditing. Well, that is because I am not trying to be logical with ideas, but only to be consistent with my personal experiences.

Based on my own extensive familiarity with the subject, as staff, as Sea Org, as public, having read ALL the books MANY times, having done many courses, having received much auditing, having audited, having completed the PDC course on Flag, having listened to many tapes, having observed the whole thing from within and from without, I have to say this because THIS is what I observed.

For me:

1. I liked much of the auditing. I never turned into a robot or zombie from TRs or auditing. I have used ideas from assists to help a few people over the years, but I am in no way a "practicing anything". I have never been a part of any "indie group".

2. I came to detest all aspects of the Scientology organization very early on, seeing the lunacy up close and personal while in the Sea Org, and seeing it when out of the Sea org.

While this is an over-simplification, in a nutshell, there is some value to some of the Red Volumes (auditing), and there is mostly no value or even harmful value to the Green Volumes.

Now of course, ideas such as using stats to manage, admin scales, hatting, training, and such are sensible. What I am talking about is the "Scientology-specific" Admin Tech that revolves solely around one thing:

Expanding Scientology as the Top and ONLY value

The subject of ethics and justice is rigged to serve this above primary goal. A good deal of the PR, Marketing, Data, and other Management Series policies are also aimed at achieving THAT goal.

The ideas in the Green volumes that can be used to help any honest activity expand are fine, though personally I never found much use for it myself. The problem, again, is that so much of it is tied in directly with MAKING SCIENTOLOGY SUCCEED.

Really, people live their lives, do fine, succeed in all manner of endeavors without ever knowing a bit of "admin tech". The whole idea of "getting in ethics so that tech can go in" is part of the Scientology implanting. It is NONSENSE.

I found very little use for the data on ARC as it was so manipulative, just like the PR Series. The ONLY time I ever stoop to using ARC is when I am in a dangerous situation and I need to "control" the comm and tone level to safeguard my ass. Other than that, it is entirely useless to me. I prefer to be honest rather than to figure-figure "manage" my communication based on how I decide the other person needs to be treated based on their Tone Level and "agreements". :puke2:

Of course, I do pay attention, I do consider who and what is over across from me, and I do take that into consideration when I speak and act. But, I am NOT playing ARC games.

But, I always enjoyed the "therapy" part (auditing), and I don't think THAT is all bullshit. I don't necessarily think that some of it "works" within any framework of how Hubbard theorized that it worked necessarily, and I would tend to interpret various processes from the angle of visualization, affirmations, magic, self-hypnosis, and eastern meditative practices. See there is nothing wrong with hypnosis, as a tool, IF YOU KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING. The problem with some of Scientology is that you are not privy to the fact that THAT is what is often happening. :omg:

I liked how Hubbard connected the ideas of start-change-stop to the Hindu trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and as Create-Survive-Destroy. But also, I find that ideas such as these mostly useless alone within the isolated framework of Scientology. Such an idea like this S-C-S has value for me if I take it out of the Scientology context and relate it to the Hindu notions of eternal cycles endlessly cycling for all eternity. What I never liked about Scientology is that it gave me a "small picture" - and I wanted the BIG picture. And worse, Hubbard presented it as if it WAS the "big picture".

As an example. Why do I detest the PR Series? For the same reason that I detest modern advertising. In the same way that Budweiser will hire psychologists to study and figure out ways to associate sex with their beer products, so does Hubbard's "PR tech" aim to associate and link various unrelated ideas with other ideas - to get what they want - your donations of time, money and energy.

I evaluate everythng against truth and decency.

Hubbard evalauted everything against "does this expand my empire of Scientology".

But, regardless, I still enjoyed the auditing. I don't need to "make sense of it", it just IS. :confused2:

I would need to write a book to cover each specific idea or practice of Scientology, evaluate it, and relate it to other existing ideas in other subjects. But, then I would not be able to have the time to make up more nutty avatars and crazy graphics!!!!!! :biggrin: :biggrin:

One MUST keep ones priorities straight! :yes:

Hello Clarisse!

lechter3.jpg


Damn, even Hannibal the Cannibal knows to stay away from Hubbard! :ohmy:
 
Personally, if I had to do it all over again, I would pretty much do the lower Bridge, especially if it was as cheap as it was when one bought 250 hours at a time back in 1976. With the sliding scale and AP (advanced payment) discount, I was getting about 60% off the regular price (which was about $800 an intensive back then).

I enjoyed every bit of TRs, Objectives, Life Repair, Dianetics R3R, Drug Rundown, Grades and the Expanded Grades. Well, forget Grade IV, I didn't get much from that.

But, knowing what I know now, I would have finished Grade IV, turned around, walked out the door, never to return or support that insane organization.

Now, some people can't make sense how I can't rip apart Hubbard and Scientology as I do, yet talk positively about the auditing. Well, that is because I am not trying to be logical with ideas, but only to be consistent with my personal experiences. ...

Actually that is completely logical. :yes:

What isn't logical is the syllogism which runs:

(hubbard == bad AND hubbard ==> scientology auditing)
==> scientology auditing == bad​

This is similar to the illogic of:

(hubbard == good AND hubbard ==> scientology auditing)
==> scientology auditing == good​

The truth is much within scientology has the potential to create benefit. This is demonstrable by use of scientology auditing practices and is true regardless of hubbard, his dictats, or what is imagined to be his intent.

Basing one's opinions on one's own experiences is a far more reasonable approach than conclusions based on hearsay, 2nd hand reports, and a personal lack of experience.

Many have suffered badly as a result of the abuses of the cult. Many individuals have experienced benefits from their personal use of the tech. Both statements are true, and taken together they suggest that the truth about scientology tech is not as simple as many would like others to believe, whether 'pro' or 'con'.


Mark A. Baker
 

looker

Patron Meritorious
Yep. The auditing process can yield real or imagined pictures or incidents. Or a combination of both.

They don't all follow the time track or the file clerk as described in DSMH, but, they can yield results as far as feeling better about some gunk in ones life.

FWIW: From what I experienced the "Time Track" is not linear, like a film strip, but a snarl of similar associations.

From what I've read, stuff like two way communications (2WC) in the Levels Auditing is very much like free association and talk therapy, only less guided. :)
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Yep. The auditing process can yield real or imagined pictures or incidents. Or a combination of both.

They don't all follow the time track or the file clerk as described in DSMH, but, they can yield results as far as feeling better about some gunk in ones life.

FWIW: From what I experienced the "Time Track" is not linear, like a film strip, but a snarl of similar associations.

From what I've read, stuff like two way communications (2WC) in the Levels Auditing is very much like free association and talk therapy, only less guided. :)

Not all auditing deals with mental image pictures as does Dianetics.

Many of the Grades processes are "creative processing" from The Creation of Human Ability. In a very real sense, some of it is actually "guided visualization" (with that fact hidden and misnamed).
 
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