Mocking Things Up - Hubbard's Failure

Gadfly

Crusader
I stumbled across a cool observation today. Bear with, as this is pretty cool, and cuts to the very heart of the Scientology approach to all things.

Idea #1:

Hubbard wrote books like 8-8008 which are based on the idea that Man's current state is very bad, involving the notion that the physical universe currently exists as "everything", and YOUR (subjective) universe is "nothing". The theme of the book is to move the thetan from "total effect of MEST" (zero), up to an "infinity of cause" (8). The idea is that through various techniques and processes the thetan can gain newly or rehabilitate various "abilities" that will bring the thetan up to a state where its own considerations and postulates will supersede the "MEST universe" and other universes. This game is all about and ONLY about some individual ascending to some height of power where it can easily "force" its considerations and postulates" on others" simply by "mocking them up".

This is actually what some or many Scientology members desire. They want to be able to have "his or her own reality" overwhelm and supersede everybody else's. The whole idea about "making your postulates stick" is supposed to transcend the subjective and run over into the objective. It is almost always framed as a "war of some kind where the "bigger thetan" will "win". This "game of life" of Hubbard's is VERY competitive, and one can and must do everything and anything to "win". The goal of auditing is to have YOUR universe attain a near infinity of "influence" and "control", and the subservient other universes and the MEST universe become a near zero "influence", unable to "affect you".

This is really a dumb idea to have as a goal, but it IS a key goal of Scientology as defined by Hubbard.

Idea #2:

Hubbard spent his whole life taking the view that he could "postulate anything as true and have it be true". He took the idea that he could "mock up" (make-up) anything, and have it supersede the oppressive MEST universe of agreement. This is very much in the vein of 8-8008 and the basic theories of Scientology where the theory states that "all mechanics are junior to postulates, considerations and agreements". He took the idea that he could postulate something as an "is-ness", and if he could round up enough "agreement", that it would "turn into reality". This is a "magician at work". It is the Dark Arts in motion where some "wizard" is trying to "mold" the reality into HIS image through manipulations of gaining agreement.

So, looking at the two ideas above, now look at the FACT of Hubbard's "image" and "legacy".

Obviously Hubbard failed at applying his own crazy theories. If they can't work for the guy who "invented them", how they hell are they going "to work" for anybody else? The ONLY thing that worked for Hubbard was his SCAM, at least for awhile. Anyway, look at Hubbard's "image". Scientology is probably experiencing the absolute WORSE PR image in its entire history. MANY people have now read one or more books critical of Hubbard and Scientology. Many people have read online or in-print exposes of the Church of Scientology. Talk show hosts make jokes about Scientology. It is largely a JOKE to most people.

Hubbard went so far as to build entire departments of the Scientology organization, with representatives at INT levels, whose entire purpose is to "make known and forward the great works, wonderful products, humanitarian efforts and discoveries of the genius L. Ron Hubbard". In the "real world", people get known and thought well of because "in a free market place with usual promotion and push", their popularity "naturally" rises or falls. But, with Hubbard he has had VERY EXCESSIVE promotion, over-the-top high pressure book-buying programs that exaggerate "real demand", and even Sea Org members lobbying local governments for "parks and roads" with "L. Ron Hubbard" as part of the name. The point is that with Hubbard there has been an extraordinary PUSH to "make him well known and well thought of". Whatever "image" he did gain, at whatever moment it might have been even slightly "decent", this image was ONLY achieved through incredible effort of an organization, and his image was NEVER the result of "the natural likes of the general population manifesting and unfolding without extreme manipulation and controlling".

Realize that MUCH of LRH's image IS A LIE - it is largely a "mock-up", a "postulate" that happens NOT to align with the facts of that horrible MEST universe. Many of the details of Hubbard's "official biography" are either gross exaggerations or flat out fairy-tale lies, and all of Hubbard's less than savory past shenanigans/misdeeds/lies are ignored, omitted and relegated to the garbage bin of history. The "LRH image, as presented by the Church of Scientology is a "mock-up" in the purest sense of the word - it is the figment of ones imagination. It is "make-believe". It exists in the "theta" world of "postulates" and "ideas". But, it is NOT "real", not because it lacks agreement but because the "facts" presented about Hubbard are really LIES that contradict ACTUAL HISTORICAL EVENTS.

So, Hubbard, with all he knew, and even with an entire BILLION-DOLLAR organization propping up his "image" and "mocking him up" to be so many wonderful things, has FAILED. The notion of getting out there, INTENDING, POSTULATING, AND FORWARD "CONSIDERATIONS" directly in the face of the "agreed upon reality" of the MEST universe, with Tone 40, and certainty, is severely flawed. One cannot "spit in the face of observable facts" as far as the MEST universe is concerned. The notion that a thetan can simply "mock up" realities and have others "accept and see the mock ups" is such a DUMB idea, first to believe in or think valuable, and second, to worry about achieving as a MAIN CONCERN in life. The basic "slant" of Scientology is out of whack. This goes back to the earliest 1950s lectures.

Jim Croce wrote a song called, "Don't Mess With Jim". A great line was "don't tug on Superman's cape, don't piss into the wind". The idea was that there are certain things that you just DON'T DO. It is the "way things are set up" and all your wonderful postulates and considerations will NEVER change them - you are PART of them. Trying to put up mock-ups in the face of direct contradictory evidence that is boldly standing out there in the agreed-upon MEST universe is NUTS. But, that IS Scientology. That is a GOAL of Scientology.

There are a few things to learn from this.

The solution to life is NOT in overwhelming it, controlling it, making it subservient to your "responsibility", or steam-rolling out into greater and greater spheres of responsibility, and making yourself "master" over "MEST". That is an entirely wrong goal. THAT is a MAJOR FLAW, which sets it up to fail right from the start, for Scientology.

The solution to life is to "get along with it". The key is to NOT "resist". The "path of non-resistance" IS incompatible with Scientology, and THAT makes Scientology VERY FUCKED as a philosophy. The universe IS "bigger than you", and understanding how you "fit in" and "how you relate to the Universe" is FAR more important than aiming to "gain control over it".

YOU are PART of the primordial breath that is coursing through every particle of this Universe. You are an integral PART of it. But, you can and never will "master it", because "you" are but a speck of sand to the WHOLE. To me, as I see it, a legitimate spiritual path focuses on how YOU can "fit in to that", and NOT how you can make all of it conform to YOUR "certainties". The last three paragraphs are my (current) opinion.

It may be some sort of "spiritual truth" though, where one needs to walk one of these paths of "personal power, gain and achievement" (like Scientology), so that one can finally transcend THAT, move forward and LEAVE IT FAR BEHIND. In other words, "religions" or philosophies like Scientology are something one needs to GROW OUT OF.
 
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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
This is one of the most beautifull essay I've read
on a $cientology board

hundreds of Books and tapes and processing
can not come close to one little piece of the truth in this

Surfing on the wave - or with the wind -even though it's a storm...

I find I am blessed of all the suffering that made me more free of craving for Ego - power - greatness - approval - diploma of Oatie....diploma of truth found..

The most difficult time one may go into - the despair he may encouter - the contemplation of making an end to suffering - is the open door to the true spiritual journey - as having nothing left - is a gift.

Beautifull post you made.
A gem of wisdom path!

:flowers2::biglove:
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
Beauty! :clap:

I have a few similar thoughts and at the moment must stay my hand (iow, stfu fer nao this evening), awesome package (and I have noticed over the last couple of years how many have been putting their thoughts and words together better, more concisely, compactly, fearlessly too. Is virtual and vicarious watching of a garden/forest growing such a bad thing?)

:dance:
 

Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Great post Gadfly, i dont know where he said "when you have a universe of your own one day" but he said it(maybe PDCs) nullify step one.

then 8-8008 definition of a 'static', i think was hubbards way of saying your nothing and stuck , without saying it literally, and then tagging peculiar on top like a xmas decoration.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
From a lecture by Alan Watts on Zen

http://deoxy.org/w_lectur.htm

YOU ARE IT

Like the stars don't leave trails behind them. And so that fundamental--it is called 'the void' in Buddhism; it doesn't mean 'void' in the sense that it's void in the ordinary sense of emptiness. It means void in that is the most real thing there is, but nobody can conceive it. It's rather the same situation that you get between the speaker, in a radio and all the various sounds which it produces. On the speaker you hear human voices, you hear every kind of musical instrument, honking of horns, the sounds of traffic, the explosions of guns, and yet all that tremendous variety of sounds are the vibrations of one diaphragm, but it never says so. The announcer doens't come on first thing in the morning and say 'Ladies and gentlemen, all the sounds that you will hear subsequentally during the day will be the vibration of this diaphragm; don't take them for real.' And the radio never mentions its own construction, you see? And in exactly the same way, you are never able, really, to examine, to make an object of your own mind, just as you can't look directly into your own eyes or bite your own teeth, because you ARE that, and if you try to find it, and make it something to possess, why that's a great lack of confidence. That shows that you don't really know your 'it'. And if you're 'it,' you don't need to make anything of it.

Wikiquotes____Alan Watts

The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are (1966)

The prevalent sensation of oneself as a separate ego enclosed in a bag of skin is a hallucination which accords neither with Western science nor with the experimental philosophy-religions of the East…

Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe.

The prevalent sensation of oneself as a separate ego enclosed in a bag of skin is a hallucination which accords neither with Western science nor with the experimental philosophy-religions of the East — in particular the central and germinal Vedanta philosophy of Hinduism. This hallucination underlies the misuse of technology for the violent subjugation of man's natural environment and, consequently, its eventual destruction.
We are therefore in urgent need of a sense of our own existence which is in accord with the physical facts and which overcomes our feeling of alienation from the universe.

Sex is no longer a serious taboo. Teenagers sometimes know more about it than adults.
Inside Information

There is always something taboo, something repressed, unadmitted, or just glimpsed quickly out of the corner of one's eye because a direct look is too unsettling. Taboos lie within taboos, like the skin of an onion.
Inside Information

Wonder is not a disease. Wonder, and its expression in poetry and the arts, are among the most important things which seem to distinguish men from other animals, and intelligent and sensitive people from morons.
Inside Information

The world is in an extremely dangerous situation, and serious diseases often require the risk of a dangerous cure — like the Pasteur serum for rabies.
Inside Information

We do not "come into" this world; we come out of it, as leaves from a tree. As the ocean "waves," the universe "peoples." Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe. This fact is rarely, if ever, experienced by most individuals. Even those who know it to be true in theory do not sense or feel it, but continue to be aware of themselves as isolated "egos" inside bags of skin.
Inside Information

The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego.
Inside Information

I seem to be a brief light that flashes but once in all the aeons of time — a rare, complicated, and all-too-delicate organism on the fringe of biological evolution, where the wave of life bursts into individual, sparkling, and multicolored drops that gleam for a moment... only to vanish forever.
Inside Information

Nothing fails like success.
How to be a Genuine Fake

(rethinking the premise of 8-8008)
 
... Idea #1:
...
This game is all about and ONLY about some individual ascending to some height of power where it can easily "force" its considerations and postulates" on others" simply by "mocking them up".

...

Idea #2:

Hubbard spent his whole life taking the view that he could "postulate anything as true and have it be true". He took the idea that he could "mock up" (make-up) anything, and have it supersede the oppressive MEST universe of agreement. ...

There are a few things to learn from this. ...

You left out what is the most obvious conclusion and in some ways the most helpful to recognize in order to avoid the worst pitfalls of involvement with the cult of hubbard. The ideas cited are not 'general principles of the theta universe' but are instead glaring indicators of hubbard's own peculiar fixations. They are not universal 'goals', the truth of which is to be recognized and implemented, but the one's with which hubbard himself was personally obsessed. In other words, an aspect of his 'case' which he was constantly dramatizing.

In effect 'going into agreement' with them is akin is accepting hubbard's 'own goals' as one's own. The acceptance of these goals as an 'item' on the repetitious suggestion of scientology materials constitutes a far bigger, earlier, and more fundamental 'implant' than anything which might occur on the ot levels.


Mark A. Baker
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Ev purps oft become others' false purps. We take on the goals of another when we lose track of the fact that our vector is separate from theirs. This easily happens when we start using their justifications for our actions and start orienting from their 'position'.

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Gadfly

Crusader
You left out what is the most obvious conclusion and in some ways the most helpful to recognize in order to avoid the worst pitfalls of involvement with the cult of hubbard. The ideas cited are not 'general principles of the theta universe' but are instead glaring indicators of hubbard's own peculiar fixations. They are not universal 'goals', the truth of which is to be recognized and implemented, but the one's with which hubbard himself was personally obsessed. In other words, an aspect of his 'case' which he was constantly dramatizing.

In effect 'going into agreement' with them is akin is accepting hubbard's 'own goals' as one's own. The acceptance of these goals as an 'item' on the repetitious suggestion of scientology materials constitutes a far bigger, earlier, and more fundamental 'implant' than anything which might occur on the ot levels.

Mark A. Baker

Good point. :thumbsup:

It seems to me that Hubbard had a marked tendency to take his own case, interests and view of things, and EXTRAPOLATE or TRANSFER these things onto everybody else as "wide universal truths".

It seems to me that he also took completely fictional ideas (mock-ups), and tried to saddle others with those fabrications.

I am going to add some more to the original post.

If there is a realm such as the "astral plane", where "ideas work their way into reality" (i.e. "thought forms"), then getting groups of people to mutually agree and MOCK-UP fictional events and scenarios actually "does something". That idea and practice, when tied with intention and desire, involves pure "magick". I don't exactly know what Hubbard might have been planning by getting large numbers of people to accept and think with a largely "made-up" and "pretend" scenarios, but the astral events connected to these thoughts and beliefs might be unfolding in interesting ways.

Of course, many magicians forget one key factor. ANY action in this universe has unknown and unintended consequences (aka "side-effects), and NOTHING turns out exactly as envisioned, because one can NEVER take into account, plan for, estimate and control ALL variables in ANY GAME. THAT aim is entirely delusional. The concept of "pan-determinism" is a complete figment of the imagination. People who have delusions of grandeur and various megalomaniacs seem to gravitate to the notion that "I can control and define all aspects of ANY game". These people are nuts - people who accept the notion, believe the notion, and worse, who actually strive to ACHIEVE the notion.

It is a common idea in various occult and magickal studies that the (white) magician only aims for and intends outcomes in alignment with God or the Universe. Hubbard's aim was to "take over" and have HIS universe become "senior" to the MEST universe.

In magickal groups, rituals are preformed IN THE IMAGINATION. When you observe 30 people dressed in robes, carrying various items such as cups, wands and knives, what you don't see is the shared imaginative event. In a well-run ritual, each member has accepted and agreed upon the mental or imaginative significance of EVERY item in the ritual. They agree on the purpose of the ritual, and each person plays a specific "role". Each person performs a correlative ceremony IN THE IMAGINATION, and the physical universe items (robes, colors, incense, etc) and events acts as PROPS to prod the unconscious based on well-studied and agreed upon MEANINGS. Some magicians understand that the symbols and such are all arbitrary and some do not.

The theory involved here is that EVERY THOUGHT RIPPLES OUT TO THE EDGE OF THE UNIVERSE AND BACK CREATING EFFECTS ALL ALONG THE WAY. Also, every thought creates a lingering "thought form", that if energized sufficiently by continued concentration and repetitive practices of the mind can "manifest" in the physical universe. Mystic's "tulpa" is simply a thought form that has taken on full corporeal form. From Mystic's view, various advanced monks spent a great amount of time and energy concentrating and "mocking up" in the imagination, mutually, and in concert, to generate a thought form strong enough to manifest as "Hubbard". That may or may not be true, but that is the theory.

Either thought forms exist as described, occurring in a sort of "universe" of their own linked to the physical, or they don't. Personally, while the model might not be exactly accurate, I suspect something like that does go on. Some religious ideas (Kabbalah) include the notion that God brings things into manifestation by degree or levels. The "astral" is the next "level up". All things are first conceived in the mind, in the imagination, as an IDEA, as a mock up, and then these gain momentum, attract substance, and "come to be". So, Hubbard was not entirely wrong. Though he may have been wrong in attributing such qualities to Man in a way where Man could or should "ascend" to overpower all else.

My reason for bringing up the astral plane and thought forms is that ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE MUTUALLY AGREEING UPON AND ENTERTAINING THE SAME EXACT MOCK-UPS can function as a "magickal ritual". Hubbard created a group of people who all study HIS paradigm, they all agree on it, they come to agree HARD on it, and THAT CREATES CORRESPONDING thought forms IN THE ASTRAL PLANE. Hubbard seems to have tricked a great many people into mutually IMAGINING a great many similar ideas and visions. I sometimes wonder what the effect of THAT might be on the "subtle planes", and what Hubbard's intention might have really been since he was well versed in all of the ideas I just explained. Also, in Scientology the participants are not aware of and do not know that they each are part of some "ritual" involving the imagination.

Here's a theory. Hubbard as a "tulpa", created by a group of advanced Tibetan Buddhist monks, was "sent out" to conduct an experiment of sorts. It was simply an experiment involving various theories of the "occult". It may or may not have had basic underlying "evil" intentions. Another angle to all of this is that there are MANY beings throughout all of creation, all desiring and aiming to achieve different things, ALL intnentionally or unintentionally creating these "thought forms" that head out, gather speed, and manifest if sufficiently energized by intention and repetition.

Lastly, as I see it, there IS a value for this understanding of mock-ups, the imagination and "making things happen". It is not "all bullshit". But, it is restricted to the locus of energy known as "you" as you exist in/as a body now, here on Earth. In the magick I studied, and the conclusions I came to, it is completely fine to intend results, create mock-ups, and use the imagination to fuel mock-ups of desired outcomes ONLY as long as these 1) harm nobody, 2) take from nobody, 3) ideally make things "better" for at least some others besides you, 4) grant tolerance to all others, 5) understand that you with your limited knowledge of all-that-is are NOT in a position to dictate specifics of HOW your desired goal will manifest, and 6) you leave it entirely to the intelligence and power of the Universe (i.e. God) to attract to you in whatever way IT knows to be best for you.

It is also fine and well to imagine wonderful things for others, for planetary peace, for a world without suffering, and so forth. I sometimes wonder why a group of knowledgable magicians don't just let go of all their "personal aims", and simply peform rituals that create GLORIOUS AND WONDERFUL thought forms about peace, happiness, and immense joy for others and for the world. :confused2:

Most people get involved in these sort of subjects because they are trying to "get things for his or herself". They are often largely motivated by "personal gain and benefit". That is fine and well as long as one recognizes that the limited temporary locus of energy known as YOU is PART of a much bigger something, and that you will/must/should only satisfy desires and achieve aims in complete alignment with the Big Awareness (Big Consciousness).

The above involves more of my (current) opinion.
 
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Gadfly

Crusader
Great post Gadfly, i dont know where he said "when you have a universe of your own one day" but he said it(maybe PDCs) nullify step one.

then 8-8008 definition of a 'static', i think was hubbards way of saying your nothing and stuck , without saying it literally, and then tagging peculiar on top like a xmas decoration.

As I see it, the truth is that we each already have a HUGE UNIVERSE OF OUR OWN. It is our own self-created universe of concepts, thoughts, ideas and attachments. No two people are the same in that regard. Each is entirely unique. The potential for creation is unlimited, and the mental universe of significance is ONLY ONE ASPECT of what each of us possesses. Your personal ability to IMAGINE, as that attribute which resonates with the Intelligence that "thought the entire universe into existence", is also unique to each person.

I did like Hubbard's definition of a static, and I interpreted it in alignment with Hindu notions.

Hubbard confuses greatly the notion of "theta" (i.e. the BIG creativity, the BIG intelligence underlying all-that-is) with "thetan". To me, the notion of "static" made sense when thought of as the "Void", "nothingness" or "Unmanifest" of Hindu lore.

The "thetan" is a temporary, fleeting emanation of the Absolute, which while "made in the image of God" as far as awareness and imagination are concerned, does not have ANY eternal existence. It is a "relative static", though that is sort of an oxymoron.

Hubbard tried to get too many people to think of themselves as statics in the "big way", and he greatly confused the realm of what YOU ARE as part of thre BIG PICTURE. He tried to get adherents to imagine that each WAS THE BIG PICTURE.

The BIG PICTURE is you AND everybody else, taken as a whole, including a strong recognition of the incredbly uniqueness we each possess. And, recognizing this is ALL OTHERS.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
From a lecture by Alan Watts on Zen

http://deoxy.org/w_lectur.htm

YOU ARE IT

Wikiquotes____Alan Watts


(rethinking the premise of 8-8008)

Thank-you for the wonderful quotes Hats! :thumbsup:

I subsisted on a reading diet of Alan Watts and similar authors in my second year of college. I was heavily "attracted" to the ideas. I always resonated with how he put his ideas into words.

I find "truth" in such writings now more than ever.

"We do not "come into" this world; we come out of it, as leaves from a tree. As the ocean "waves," the universe "peoples." Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe. This fact is rarely, if ever, experienced by most individuals. Even those who know it to be true in theory do not sense or feel it, but continue to be aware of themselves as isolated "egos" inside bags of skin."

I do at times experience THAT, and do not simply "think about it" with concepts and ideas. Walking through the aisles of Walmart or walking in the forest with such a connection are equally "rewarding".
 

Gadfly

Crusader
8-8008 Defined

Here is the definition from the Tech Dictionary (taken from taped lectures and the book).

Scientology 8-8008, 1. was a formula. It said: the attainment of infinity, that is the first eight is achieved by the reduction of the physical universe from infinity, that is the second eight, to zero, which is the first zero and the building of one's own universe from zero to an infinity of one's own universe and by that one achieves the attainment of infinity. (9ACCC 14, 5412CM24) 2. the roadmap of a process. And it says, the attainment of infinity by the reduction of the apparency of the mest universe is infinity to zero and the increase on one's own apparent zero to an infinity of his own universe. (PDC 31) 3. the original definition of Scientology 8-8008 was the attainment of infinity by the reduction of the apparent infinity and power of the mest universe to a zero for himself, and the increase of the apparent zero of one's own universe to an infinity for oneself. Infinity (symbol) stood upright makes the number eight. (Scn 8-8008, pg. 31)

There you have it folks. The "how to guide" on how to "achieve infinity". :duh:

Comments

Hubbard's statement is actually entirely BACKWARDS and wrong. From a Buddhist perspective, the way to "contact infinity" is to let go of all attachments and let the self vanish. In other words, the REAL way to contact infinity is to allow ones own universe to become ZERO. In doing so, the MEST universe might "vanish" in some regards too, but one melts into Infinity NOT by becoming "infinite as a subjective self", but by allowing the subjective self to VANISH. Hubbard's way to infinity actually involves the subjective "ego" expanding to infinity.

Your personal universe IS an illusion. It is an additive of a sort. Hubbard's approach described above by 8-8008 simply beefs up THAT (personal) illusion. Granted, the MEST universe may be an illusion too, but they each involve VERY DIFFERENT factors, relationships and magnitudes. For instance, your personal universe is a localized temporary and limited creation, whereas the MEST universe involves quite a bit more than the "subjective view of one conscious entity". Your universe exists ONLY for you, whereas the shared MEST playing field exists for everybody - and in pretty much the same way. I don't understand why some people have this need or urge to try to make one's own amazing and complex universe into something it is not.

A personal universe, with all its unique significances, meanings, values, hopes and dreams can be a wonderful thing - just as it is! Why the need for it to somehow "impinge on" and "control" anything else?

Hubbard had it completely backwards. Considering that he probably knew this, one might wonder what the hell his actual intentions were. :confused2: :omg: :nervous:

If Buddhism has it right, the way to become free of suffering and pain, and the endless wheel of birth and death, is to abandon one's own universe. If that is true, then what Hubbard was doing actually stuck/sticks people MORE into pain, suffering, and the wheel of birth and death, because Hubbard's system almost always acts to BEEF UP the "Scientologist ego".
 
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Re: 8-8008 Defined

... Hubbard's statement is actually entirely BACKWARDS and wrong. From a Buddhist perspective, the way to "contact infinity" is to let go of all attachments and let the self vanish. In other words, the REAL way to contact infinity is to allow ones own universe to become ZERO. In doing so, the MEST universe might "vanish" in some regards too, but one melts into Infinity NOT by becoming "infinite as a subjective self", but by allowing the subjective self to VANISH. Hubbard's way to infinity actually involves the subjective "ego" expanding to infinity. ...

Try it this way 'round: one melts into Infinity by not being finite.

The less active striving to delimit 'self' through the adoption of limiting 'valences', identities, & personnas the more one realizes the fundamentally boundless (i.e. infinite) innate character of that which is deemed 'spirit'.


Mark A. Baker
 

Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: 8-8008 Defined

Try it this way 'round: one melts into Infinity by not being finite.

The less active striving to delimit 'self' through the adoption of limiting 'valences', identities, & personnas the more one realizes the fundamentally boundless (i.e. infinite) innate character of that which is deemed 'spirit'.


Mark A. Baker

Do you think though Hubbard set up scientology as a reactive mind full of valences ,tried to nullify all a person was on entry and wrap around their skull a series of valences, you will now be the valence of a scientologist and this valence must comply with my rules, now you will be auditor valence, now you are in executive valence, now sea org valence , now you are in the EP of scientology the sp valence, and you will now die.


all it takes is a noun, and a box to interiorize you into.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
Re: 8-8008 Defined

If Buddhism has it right, the way to become free of suffering and pain, and the endless wheel of birth and death, is to abandon one's own universe. If that is true, then what Hubbard was doing actually stuck/sticks people MORE into pain, suffering, and the wheel of birth and death, because Hubbard's sytem almost always acts to BEEF UP the "Scientologist ego".

This is it


(that explain why I would never promote any $cientology processing)
A a Stronger Self - implant one's mind that He has to owe and to be this or that instead getting rid of the illusion of having a self.

In buddhism, the primary cause of suffering is IGNORANCE
Ignorance lead to Fear and then pain and suffering
The way to cure this is to cure ignorance with bringning more truth into light of the awareness
wich can be overcome with meditation as a process of make the mind quiet and see the true nature of you and life - but then - one find He is nothing - but a particule of a whole (this is calle the void - interdependancy - and impermanency)

Also , that Hubbard , in his teachings, reinforce the sense of ''being permanent'' wich can' only lead to more suffering - I beleive this lead to the need of more and more processing for craving a cognition of owing the whole universe - being powerfull and permanent.
(there we can observe some people going into psychotic break and originate cogs like : I am the creator of the universe - I made the big bang - I make some planets explode - I made a galaxy exist.....)
really, I beleive the universe doesn't need me to exists - or to explode :unsure:

As a buddhist practionner - it tooks me thousands of hours and years of meditation to undo the false concept I got with LRH and scamology
My releif is no more craving for power ''tetang'' - or to owe a universe - or even to create huge effects -
I only want be my true nature and live my ordinary simple life made or extraordinary small happenings each moments.

Some might be luckier and get it faster than me in a moment of illumination -
but - usually it comes from a process of looking depper into the nature of life - phenomenons and aggregation. People close to nature usually get this earlier in their life.

I ever stated on this mb that Scamology is the opposite of Buddhism and can't have any roots in it - nor a monk can practice $camology - it doen't make any sens -
It woud be like a cancer survivor to go practice how to get cancer.:unsure:

This make me beleive that LRH probably never learned any buddhism practice nor scripture but would only try to take some concepts, he did never understood , and make a scam from it like any other practice as psychotherapy .

The 2 main concepts in Scamology are

- reinforcing the ego (power)
- provide this ego with the certainty of permanency (infinity)

AS far as LRH reinforce within our mind the duality - it serves the ego and makes us walk a suffering path - wich often - is very painfull when the dellusion Cog happens.

These are only my perception and opinion .
 
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Hatshepsut

Crusader
Re: 8-8008 Defined

snipped

Hubbard had it completely backwards. Considering that he probably knew this, one might wonder what the hell his actual intentions were. :confused2: :omg: :nervous:

If Buddhism has it right, the way to become free of suffering and pain, and the endless wheel of birth and death, is to abandon one's own universe. If that is true, then what Hubbard was doing actually stuck/sticks people MORE into pain, suffering, and the wheel of birth and death, because Hubbard's system almost always acts to BEEF UP the "Scientologist ego".

images

My all time favorite piece of zen commentary by D. T. Suzuki



http://www.bodysoulandspirit.net/mystical_experiences/learn/experts_define/suzuki.shtml

Mysticism Defined by D.T. Suzuki


D. T. Suzuki is credited with bringing Zen to America. Through books, articles, and teaching, Suzuki helped make Zen instruction widely accessible in North America. Zen, known for its distrust of symbols, rituals, and study of holy texts, Zen practice is mainly built around focusing the mind on the breath, a movement, or on an unchanging landscape such as a blank, white wall.

The mystical experience in Zen is called Satori (wu in Chinese). Satori is that which lies beyond most forms of insights such as those arising from contemplation or via imagery and is a intuitive grasp of the reality "beyond forms." Suzuki says Satori has these characteristics:

1. Irrationality. "By this I mean that satori is not a conclusion to be reached by reasoning, and defies all intellectual determination. Those who have experienced it are always at a loss to explain it coherently or logically."

2. Intuitive Insight. "That there is noetic quality in mystic experiences has been pointed out by (William) James...Another name for satori is "kensho" (chien-hsing in Chinese) meaning "to see essence or nature," which apparently proves that there is "seeing" or "perceiving" in satori...Without this noetic quality satori will lose all its pungency, for it is really the reason of satori itself. "

3. Authoritativeness.
"By this I mean that the knowledge realized by satori is final, that no amount of logical argument can refute it. Being direct and personal it is sufficient unto itself. All that logic can do here is to explain it, to interpret it in connection to other kinds of knowledge with which our minds are filled. Satori is thus a form of perception, an inner perception, which takes place in the most interior part of consciousness.

4. Affirmation.
"What is authoritative and final can never be negative. Though the satori experience is sometimes expressed in negative terms, it is essentially an affirmative attidude towards all things that exist; it accepts them as they come along regardless of their moral values."

5. Sense of the Beyond. "...in satori there is always what we may call a sense of the Beyond; the experience indeed is my own but I feel it to be rooted elsewhere. The individual shell in which my personality is so solidly encased explodes at the moment of satori. Not, necessarily, that I get unified with a being greater than myself or absorbed in it, but that my individuality, which I found rigidly held together and definitely kept separate from other individual existences, becomes lossened somehow from its tightening grip and melts away into something indescribable, something which is of quite a different order from what I am accustomed to. The feeling that follows is that of complete release or a complete rest---the feeling that one has arrived finally at the destination...As far as the psychology of satori is considered, a sense of the Beyond is all we can say about it; to call this the Beyond, the Absolute, or God, or a Person is to go further than the experience itself and to plunge into a theology or metaphysics."

6. Impersonal Tone. "Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of the Zen experience is that it has no personal note in it as is observable in Christian mystic experiences."

7. Feeling of exaltation. "That this feeling inevitably accompanies satori is due to the fact that it is the breaking-up of the restrction imposed on one as an individual being, and this breaking up is not a mere negative incident but quite a positive one fraught with signification because it means an infinite expansion of the individual."

8. Momentariness.
"Satori comes upon one abruptly and is a momentary experience. In fact, if it is not abrupt and momentary, it is not satori.
 
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Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
I really like the name of this thread,

the duality of the word mock

hubbard sent his opinions for his audience to mock up

and he openly mocked his audience.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
snipped

In magickal groups, rituals are preformed IN THE IMAGINATION. When you observe 30 people dressed in robes, carrying various items such as cups, wands and knives, what you don't see is the shared imaginative event. In a well-run ritual, each member has accepted and agreed upon the mental or imaginative significance of EVERY item in the ritual. They agree on the purpose of the ritual, and each person plays a specific "role". Each person performs a correlative ceremony IN THE IMAGINATION, and the physical universe items (robes, colors, incense, etc) and events acts as PROPS to prod the unconscious based on well-studied and agreed upon MEANINGS. Some magicians understand that the symbols and such are all arbitrary and some do not.

The theory involved here is that EVERY THOUGHT RIPPLES OUT TO THE EDGE OF THE UNIVERSE AND BACK CREATING EFFECTS ALL ALONG THE WAY. Also, every thought creates a lingering "thought form", that if energized sufficiently by continued concentration and repetitive practices of the mind can "manifest" in the physical universe. Mystic's "tulpa" is simply a thought form that has taken on full corporeal form. From Mystic's view, various advanced monks spent a great amount of time and energy concentrating and "mocking up" in the imagination, mutually, and in concert, to generate a thought form strong enough to manifest as "Hubbard". That may or may not be true, but that is the theory.

Either thought forms exist as described, occurring in a sort of "universe" of their own linked to the physical, or they don't. Personally, while the model might not be exactly accurate, I suspect something like that does go on. Some religious ideas (Kabbalah) include the notion that God brings things into manifestation by degree or levels. The "astral" is the next "level up". All things are first conceived in the mind, in the imagination, as an IDEA, as a mock up, and then these gain momentum, attract substance, and "come to be". So, Hubbard was not entirely wrong. Though he may have been wrong in attributing such qualities to Man in a way where Man could or should "ascend" to overpower all else.

My reason for bringing up the astral plane and thought forms is that ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE MUTUALLY AGREEING UPON AND ENTERTAINING THE SAME EXACT MOCK-UPS can function as a "magickal ritual". Hubbard created a group of people who all study HIS paradigm, they all agree on it, they come to agree HARD on it, and THAT CREATES CORRESPONDING thought forms IN THE ASTRAL PLANE. Hubbard seems to have tricked a great many people into mutually IMAGINING a great many similar ideas and visions. I sometimes wonder what the effect of THAT might be on the "subtle planes", and what Hubbard's intention might have really been since he was well versed in all of the ideas I just explained. Also, in Scientology the participants are not aware of and do not know that they each are part of some "ritual" involving the imagination.

Here's a theory. Hubbard as a "tulpa", created by a group of advanced Tibetan Buddhist monks, was "sent out" to conduct an experiment of sorts. It was simply an experiment involving various theories of the "occult". It may or may not have had basic underlying "evil" intentions. Another angle to all of this is that there are MANY beings throughout all of creation, all desiring and aiming to achieve different things, ALL intnentionally or unintentionally creating these "thought forms" that head out, gather speed, and manifest if sufficiently energized by intention and repetition.

snipped

Quite serendipitously, I had been looking at this topic before I logged in Gadfly. I was going through moving boxes and found a copy of Aleister Crowley and the Ouija Board by J. Edward Cornelius.


pages 107-108

You must clearly know the reason why you want to do an elemental working and what you wish to achieve. When you do a ritual and read the incantations, you use your "imagination" in a certain fashion that affects the astral plane. Although inward and outward go hand in hand, the inward concentration is what attracts the elemental. It is like an eternal flame burning in darkness to guide an entity toward the shores of our reality. On the other hand, Ouija workings always attract "something", considering the plethora of divergent beings just waiting on the other side to slip through the door......

..The strongest argument for most mundane ritualistic props is that they help an individual set his own mood, which in turn affects an elemental's behavior. Anything you think in regard to the implements and the ritual becomes real to the elemental.

On an archetypal level, without any human intervention, the laws inherent in certain symbols will always bind the elemental. This is because the laws of this plane on which the mundane implement resides, and the astral plane that contains its invisible opposite, bind a symbol such as the magickal chain. Everything has an opposite: one visible and the other invisible. A positive and a negative. The mere fact that something was created implies someone had to think about its use and thus they projected their thoughts onto the astral in regard to that item...
.

I thought this to be a rather simplistic book at first aimed at parlor games and pajama parties. It turned out to have excellent explanations of enochian magick and the astral planes and created spirits and rituals for the imagination. Total easy read...163 pages.

Amazon 'Look Inside.'
http://www.amazon.com/Aleister-Crowley-Ouija-Edward-Cornelius/dp/1932595104#reader_1932595104 (click link)

51dzpcs67jL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg
 
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Re: 8-8008 Defined

Do you think though Hubbard set up scientology as a reactive mind full of valences ,tried to nullify all a person was on entry and wrap around their skull a series of valences, you will now be the valence of a scientologist and this valence must comply with my rules, now you will be auditor valence, now you are in executive valence, now sea org valence , now you are in the EP of scientology the sp valence, and you will now die.


all it takes is a noun, and a box to interiorize you into.

Sorry to disappoint. I was grounded in the basic ideas underlying Buddhism loooong before I ever encountered scientology. My own experience of auditing was informed by that perspective so none of the above ever stuck with me.

Frankly, I also doubt very much that to which you refer was per some sort of master plan or grand design either. I suspect it was simply cobbled on as the Co$ grew. Most particularly from after the '60s, when Hubbard created the SO, an institution which seemed to me patently absurd.


Mark A. Baker
 

Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: 8-8008 Defined

Sorry to disappoint. I was grounded in the basic ideas underlying Buddhism loooong before I ever encountered scientology. My own experience of auditing was informed by that perspective so none of the above ever stuck with me.

Frankly, I also doubt very much that to which you refer was per some sort of master plan or grand design either. I suspect it was simply cobbled on as the Co$ grew. Most particularly from after the '60s, when Hubbard created the SO, an institution which seemed to me patently absurd.


Mark A. Baker

well, im glad you were grounded

with Rons deep understanding in hypnotism, i cant see how it was anything but
a grand plan of deception.

Dianetics was a supposed manual of mind techniques, but look at the obscure format of dianetics. its a hash of cramped in info.

The details in Dianetics cover the basic ideas of scn problems today.

only he backflips on many statements from Dianetics.

He flips between the ally and the antagonist, covertly throughout dms'mh'

uses key buttons

misdirects

derails

basically talks one appealing concept and does the very things that he states are deplorable

he states in one chapter punishment is a sin in itself

and the next chapter than people who talk around an unconscious person should be jailed.

that classification is non productive, and then uses heavy buttons to classify different traits, pervert

a rollercoaster of contradictions.

manipulation from the start.
 
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