At the risk of sounding foolish, I have a comment Gadfly - have you ever considered you achieved Hubbards infinity when you achieved Santori? If you had achieved being infinite, you wouldn't have a stake in any game, and so looking at life would /could be an expression of it, could it not?
If you had created (or co-created) the game, why wouldn't you kick back and enjoy watching it?
Just sayin'.....
Mimsey
(I realize Hub tossed in a lot of other baggage into the infinity state, but taken in it's simplicity...)
As I see it, your statements in the first sentence betray a bit of confusion on this subject as a result of having accepted Hubbard's terms and definitions. So, let me first discuss Hubbard's ideas, and connect them up somewhat consistently (since they really aren't consistent).
Hubbard came up with the "dynamics". The Eighth dynamic is defined as "the urge to existence as infinity". Or, the "urge to survive as infinity". Hubbard talks very little of "infinity itself". At no place does Hubbard say the thetan "is infinite". He does say that a THETAN has URGES to "survive" or "exist" as various forms and ideas along the dynamics. Urges! Compulsions! Out-of-control desires that run rampant. There is nothing "good" or "useful" about ANY of these "urges". It really kills me how Hubbard slipped this by so many people. One doesn't "get audited" or "expand out" into the dynamics, not as a way to attain any sort of spiritual freedom, one must ERADICATE all of these urges or desires, or in other words, DISCARD THE DYNAMICS. Please realize that any "dynamic" does NOT signify some "area of life", but an URGE TO SURVIVE AS SOME AREA OF LIFE. MANY Scios make that error. Many. Very many. Far too many. Of course, Hubbard did nothing to dissuade anyone from accepting that notion.
If there is some "primary and basic pool of Theta", from which all "thetans" have their source or grounding, and if one conceives of "infinity" as "God", where God IS the "primary pool of Theta", then "surviving as God" seems kinda dumb (to me). REALLY dumb. See, Hubbard contradicts himself greatly on the 8th dynamic. It will come down to how any person defines "God" and "Infinity", because Hubbard defines the 8th dynamic BOTH as "the urge to survive as infinity", the "urge to exist as God". He calls the 8th dynamic the "God dynamic". The notion of infinity involves "endless quantity". It relates to and hinges on the limited - without the notion of "limited", the notion of "unlimited" would make no sense. But, "God" is beyond it all (as a concept and possibly as an actuality).
I view "God" as the actual source of all-that-is. I am not quite delusional enough to imagine that I
myself am the actual SOURCE of the whole shebang (like many Scios who somehow imagine that they all got together and "agreed" the Universe into existence - the
Factors nonsense) , though I do grasp that I AM the source of MY OWN universe. I view each separate viewpoint as a "tentacle" of God, or each thetan as a "tentacle" of "Theta". To me, "Theta" IS "God". The notion of a "theta universe" is idiotic. To me, Hubbard simply defines and relates these ideas incorrectly.
Hubbard's notion is to
EXPAND one's universe OUT into infinity. From the viewpoint of various eastern philosophies,
THAT is ass-backwards, and wrong. One
opens up to infinity by LETTING GO of one's own universe.
You don't
expand -
you need to
contract. Because, it is only by letting go of this temporary, limited, and current "personal universe" that one can get a glimpse of THAT PERSONAL AWARENESS UNDERNEATH that CREATED the "self" universe in the first place. And, the dynamics of how "your awareness" relates to all the CONTENT of your awareness is similar to how "God" relates to the "big universe" (physical, and all others). In that regard, the Bible seems correct, and you WERE "made in the image of God". In how "pure awareness and unmanifested creativity relate to the things of creation and the manifest".
Most definitions of infinity involve mathematics, but in the simplest terms it means, "unlimited extent of time, space, or quantity; boundless". Of course, WHAT does that MEAN? What REALITY or THINGIE does it refer to? Outside of words and ideas? There is NO part of the physical universe that is boundless, or having unlimited time, space or quantity. There is nothing any of us can experience or observe OUT THERE that can provide an EXAMPLE of this IDEA. It is largely just an IDEA that people entertain as a significance. But, WHAT does it
point to? As some "actual anything"? The ONLY thing it can point to is THAT which
creates and imagines everything else into existence. Universal Mind, God, Theta, Static, Infinite Potential. And, that exists, again only as an idea, EXCEPT and UNTIL one has the
direct experience through some
mystical experience.
I never WANTED to "achieve" Hubbard's "infinity". What that means, exactly, is that "me", as a limited viewpoint, as a thetan, will somehow imagine myself to "survive as boundlessness". What? ANY surviving anything is limited and bound. There is no way to EXIST AS or SURVIVE as "infinity". It is simply a STUPID IDEA. Let it go. It is pure nonsense. But, THAT is Scientology.
You might IMAGINE that one is "surviving as infinity", but really, the ONLY way to "be God" is to abandon all ideas of self as a separate thingie - as a "thetan". One of Hubbard's main errors, as I see it, was coming up with the notion of some "eternal thetan", where all "thetans" together comprise "the theta universe". I see it that every thetan is simply a temporary, limited aspect of the ONE awareness known as God. I could be wrong.
Nothing can "survive as infinity". It is an oxymoron per Hubbard's own definitions. Anything that "survives" is doing so as part of the
cycle of action: create - survive - destroy. "Survive" is the middle aspect. But, anything that survives eventually changes and dies. The ONLY
thing that might be thought of as
continuing forever is
that which sets all cycles into motion. And, who knows, even THAT might be changing and evolving
itself.
One doesn't achieve "spiritual gain" by "being infinite", one achieves it by losing any concern for manifesting as ANY part of anything of the Universe (physical and mental). Trying to talk about such things is nuts really, because we look around and see quantity, limited quantity, and then we create an IDEA, in our heads, called boundlessness, which doesn't "exist anywhere", and which we IMAGINE to have some reference to something actual.
The ONLY boundless "thing" is that which lies underneath and below all existence of any type, on any dynamic, which is the pure awareness and creativity of SPIRIT. And, the only way that infinity might make sense is as that POTENTIAL OF CREATIVITY RESIDING IN EACH OF US and which directly connects us to the source of all-that-is. For instance, your ability to imagine is basically unbound. You CAN imagine whatever you want. The POTENTIAL for creativity may be "infinite".
Spiritual realization is BEYOND all existence. It is beyond "being" (doing and having). It is the SOURCE of all of these things.
I don't have a stake in any game. I do sit back and enjoy it.
"Satori is sometimes loosely used interchangeably with kensho, but kensho refers to the first perception of the Buddha-Nature or True-Nature, sometimes referred to as "awakening." Distinct from kensho, which is not a permanent realization but a clear glimpse of the true nature of existence, satori is used to refer to a "deep" or lasting realization of the nature of existence.
Satori in the Zen tradition does not actually happen to an individual, rather it is a realization out of all concepts including the individual. Practitioners of Zen Buddhism, however, work to realize the true nature of existence. The student's mind often must be prepared by rigorous study, with the use of koans, and with meditation to clear the mind of all attachments to the physical world."
The "nature of existence" is BEYOND any dynamic. The spirit is
nothing, other than pure potential to create in a boundless manner. The ground of all being, as pure spirit, might be thought of as "infinite" in that it contains all possibilities, but outside of THAT, "infinity" is ONLY an IDEA. And, as with all IDEAS, on the path to Buddhahood, one must let it too go.
Also, I don't know or consider that I achieved "Satori". I had some experiences that sort of had similarities to it. I am not an expert on Zen.
Lastly, with words, try to consider WHAT they actually POINT TO, as something real or actual. What reality does the word or idea aim to define or describe. I find it very difficult at times to find realities that I can view, outside of my imagination, when it comes to Hubbard's terms and words. Granted, that is also true with almost ANY "religion" and many philosophies.
One might have a desire or urge to achieve "inifnite awareness" or "god consciousness", and that desire might keep someone going until one eventually achieves it, at which point one MUST also allow the desire itself to fade. From the viewpoint of Buddhism, all urges and desires to "exist as" or "survive as" anything along any "dynamic" must go. What does the desiring? This phantasm called the "personal ego". This imaginary "thetan". If Scientology had any validity to it at all, it would act to help eradicate these CONSIDERATIONS & AGREEMENTS along each of the dynamics that keep these personal desires and urges alive. Seriously aiming to "flourish and prosper", while great for yuppies and many "normal people", is NOT part of ANY legitimate path to "spiritual awakening". As long as there is ANY "desire" or "urge" to "exist or survive as anything", as separate from all-that-is, as some "part" of any manifested "cycle" in ANY universe, then clear perception of "spirit" will remain impossible. Some may disagree. And, I may be wrong.
The above is highly "theoretical" involving primarly the IDEAS from various views. Though I have quite an abundance of experiences that indicate to me that the notions of Buddhism are closest to "the truth". All I "know" is that when I let "myself go", "all is well". The above is just "one way" of viewing this. I almost added a large addition, because I immediately entertained quite different ways of viewing some of this. :confused2: